Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 20:18:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kay A. Teague" Subject: Re: [slow_fox@mindlink.bc.ca (Steven Lam): Tango..] To: Josiah Way Regarding the Tango, Joe Way indicated that it has a distinct rise and fall. With all due respects, I _strongly_ disagree. Well, at least with regard to International Style. If you're discussing American Style Tango, then I'm not savvy enough to know. But the very "stealth" of the International Style Tango is correctly achieved by NOT "popping up" between steps. There's a lot of work going on in the feet, ankles, knees and thighs (and, of course, hips), but neither the man nor the lady _ever_ should be standing on a straight leg. In fact, to varying degrees, both knees are always in a state of flex. It is as if you are dancing under a slightly low ceiling, so that if you stood up straight, the taller of the two would bump his/her head. By keeping the knees in a constant (though often subtle -- if they're tooooooo bent, you can't move anywhere!) state of flex, THAT is what permits the 'long' steps. Enjoy! Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 10:22:16 PDT From: Josiah Way Subject: [slow_fox@mindlink.bc.ca (Steven Lam): Tango..] Steve Lam write: >Karen White writes: >> >> >> *** Comments from H077 - White, Karen; 06/07/94 08:55am: >> I believe tango IS a smooth dance. There is no American counterpart >> for quickstep that I know of. (Unless you want to consider the >> Charleston, but that isn't danced in comps, and it may be a spot >> dance, not a travelling one. I only mentioned it because I think >> the two dances are done to similar music.) > >Hmm.. Tango isn't a smooth dance.. You have to pick up your feet in Tango >while all smooth dances have feet gliding on the floor. Furthermore, Tango >has no rise and fall while SF,QS,W,&V.W. all has rise and fall. As for >Charleston, I think my ballroom instructor does teach that too. First, the Charelston is in no way the counterpart to Quickstep. It appears the reason there isn't one is beacuse the American Foxtrot music is a bit faster that the Slow Fox of International. Then Int'l adds the Quickstep which is a bit faster than the American Fox. It's not that it couldn't be added, it's just that without changing the Foxtrot, they would be too similar, I do believe. Second, Tango ***** IS ***** a smooth dance. What it has in common with the others is that it MOVES!!! [Of course, so do Samba and Paso], But the styling comparatively is close to that of smooth dances. And even though, yes you can pick up your feet in Tango, you can also slide them (and there is more sliding in American than Int'l). And if you're gonna claim it's not a smooth because you can pick up your feet, what about Quickstep? Is that, therefore, not a smooth dance. That's rediculous. Also, Tango does have a rise and fall as well. It's is not like that of the Walts or Foxtrot, but it is there. While you are bent into your knees for traveling steps, the transition into a prominade (and other random variations) are pre-lead into by going onto a straight leg on the preceding count. That's the rise and fall. I know it's different, but it is there! Joe Way way@aludra.usc.edu Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 08:04:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kay A. Teague" Subject: Re: Tango Technique To: Josiah Way Cc: ballroom@mit.edu Regarding the "rise and fall" issue in Tango Technique, I agree that it is a rare dancer indeed who is able to achieve an International Style tango with a "level head" so to speak :-), but the _really_ tough thing I have with this issue is to actually _refer_ to it as "rise and fall." To me, "rise and fall" is reserved strictly for the Waltz. I agree that in technical terms "Rise is the increased elevation created by the bracing of the muscles of the legs, the straightening of the knees and the stretching upwards of the body, usually accompanied by the raising of the heel or heels from the floor" and "Fall is the lowering of the supporting foot from the toe to heel and the subsequent flexing of the knees, as the next step is taken" [Technique of Ballroom Dancing by Guy Howard, IDTA] -- although in interpreting the former quote one should remember that the straightening of the knees is _not_ "total" at the top of the rise in Waltz, since one must save a little bit of flex and not lock the knees ... it is the _body_ that achieves the full stretch. It's just that, to me, the term "rise and fall" _sounds_ like the character (along with the terms "swing" and "sway") of the Waltz and (again, to me) they _sound_ "smooth" and definitely neither sharp nor staccato. Ergo, they don't give me a mental picture of any part of the (Int'l Style) Tango. From: KinsellR@aol.com Date: Thu, 09 Jun 94 18:28:57 EDT Joe Way writes: >That's rediculous. Also, Tango does have a rise and fall as well. >It's is not like that of the Waltz or Foxtrot, but it is there. While >you are bent into your knees for traveling steps, the transition into a >prominade (and other random variations) are pre-lead into by going onto >a straight leg on the preceding count. That's the rise and fall. I >know it's different, but it is there. In the collected articles and lecture notes of Len Scrivener entitled "Just One Idea" Len states "The Tango differs considerably from the other dances, there is no rise and fall, no body sway and the absence of "swing action"..." In "Ballroom Dancing" by Alex Moore, Mr Moore says "The reasons for the absence of Rise and Fall in the Tango also account for the lack of Body Sways." Ken Rogers Kinsellr@aol.com Date: Thu, 09 Jun 94 00:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rise and fall,etc. From: slow_fox@mindlink.bc.ca (regarding Kay's post) I totally agree with you on that point! I principally is a international style dancer and was always told that there is no rise and fall in tango. I really couldn't remember one single step that I have learned has a straight knee in it. I do have a point to correct about tango being a "smooth" dance, please stay tuned! -- **************************************************************************** A dancer that started out with three left Member of UBC Dance Club & feet and now dance with two. I hope I will BC Amateur Dancesport Assoc. dance with left and right foot one of these days. **************************************************************************** Date: Thu, 9 Jun 94 1:31:07 PDT From: Josiah Way Subject: Re: Tango Technique Kay is right in everything she says, except in saying there is no rise and fall in Tango. It is most definately true of American Tango, though yes, not *as* true for International. I didn't want to sound like there is a "popping up", 'cuz that's not true, yet the lead offs are often done with an extention for "long" strides, and a close together with a slight rise. I don't mean to take a direct higher step, like in the other dances, but make yourself seen. Getting this change has always been difficult (for at least I) without making it *drastic*, but all the lessons I have had on International Tango stresses this point, and not just step classes, but technique classes. Of course, I did have a teacher who taught like you say, but the ones now do not, so the difference could simply be in teachers' stylalistic preferences. Joe Way From: AHGberg@aol.com Date: Thu, 09 Jun 94 23:19:29 EDT Tango is a very distinctive dance, quite different from the other smooth dances like Foxtrot and Waltz. . When "Moore or Laird or Sylvester or Scrivener, or Bryant or Jaques" or the hundreds of other experts who have stated that there is no rise and fall (lowering) in the Tango, most of them assume that their readers know just what they are referring to. The rule books on footwork prescribe that steps are taken on the inside edge or the whole (flat) foot or on the ball of the foot. The feet are placed rather than "skimmed" in the International Tango. This technique is inconsistently taught in the USA. No matter where it is taught the level of your head is not the key to whether you are executing proper "rise and fall" or none at all. It is the use of the feet and ankles and legs along with another little discussed item called" body rise". During Waltz and Foxtrot there is an absolute requirement to step on the heel roll onto the ball of the foot (feet) and then rise up to the toes sometimes with accompanying body rise followed by the reverse procedure to lower. It is much more to the absence of this kind of foot work and body rise that these experts are referring to when they say" no rise and fall in the Tango".. In addition there is a right shoulder (and right side) lead that gives the Tango it's character along with the L Ft stepping in CBMP while in closed position. This has little to do with the smooth trajectory of the top of dancer's heads. I have been teaching this technique and styling in the American Tango for a long time before I read all the books or even heard of the International Style. The most obvious difference, of late, between the Intntl & the American Tango is the crispness of movement and of course the "head snaps". I have always objected to teaching Tango "head snaps" to beginners. You will find that these "head snaps" creep their way into the Foxtrot and the Waltz where they have absolutely no place. I do not recommend that teachers dwell on the "head snaps" as a top priority of beginning dancers . The "cat-like body movement (stealth) , the right side and shoulder of the man leading, along with the Tango Hold and footwork with no rise and fall (pertaining to the foot and ankles) are first priority. Sincerely, Arthur Date: Thu, 9 Jun 94 16:58:21 PDT From: Josiah Way Subject: Re: Tango Rise & Fall In regards to the various criticisms of there being no rise and fall in tango, I am getting the feeling that there are distinct differences in teaching styles. I did take both American and International through very repectable teachers, and I do distictly remember a comment on this action, and it being called a "rise." I don't know, but has been a while since I took any smooth lessons, but I don't know. I'm trying to think what I do, when dancing, and I can't figure it out. The last time I competed in International Tango was 1 1/2 years ago in Open Gold. I got a 1st place, and I know that I did some variations going onto a straightened leg. I can't figure it out. You are all probably correct, and either the judges just weren't watching me at that point or possibly they let it go 'cuz I was doing open and the rest around it was right. But one sorta off the topic point I'd like to make is that it is possible to go onto a straight leg without rising. Take a Cha for example. You should be onto a straight leg for the 2 and the 3. For the 4 and the 4&, you bend onto your knees, but go up onto the balls of your feet while contracting. Then go back straight on the 1. Thus, you've switched from straight to bent, without ever changing the height of your dance. So, maybe it's just that it's wrong to call the change from bent to straight a rise and fall. Also, you are all correct in saying that a straight leg is awkward for Tango, at least in picturing it being danced, but I can think of a few variation steps (which are nameless as far I know)that I was taught to do such a thing. From: ProDnzr@aol.com Date: Thu, 09 Jun 94 14:47:13 EDT Subject: Re: Tango.. > *** Comments from H077 - White, Karen; 06/07/94 08:55am: > I believe tango IS a smooth dance. There is no American counterpart > for quickstep that I know of. (Unless you want to consider the > Charleston, but that isn't danced in comps, and it may be a spot > dance, not a travelling one. I only mentioned it because I think > the two dances are done to similar music.) Actually there is an American counterpart to Quickstep. It is the Peabody. For several years many pros have suggested adding it to the American syllabus. In fact Larry Dean offered it as part of his One Dance Championships in the American Pro Smooth at the Florida State Championships (Breakers) The peabody has no hopping ala Quickstep but it is very smooth and resembles the older style American foxtrot (pre 1980) a bit. The chain studios have always called Quickstep "society tempo foxtrot" by the way. Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 23:41:50 +0200 From: "Stoll Richard Dr." Subject: rise and fall (Tango and other dances) Arthur wrote: > Tango is a very distictive dance, quite different from the other smooth > dances.... ... the level of your head is not the key ..... > It is the use of the feet and ankles and leg ........ I agree. I think you cannot compare the basic movement in terms like 'rise and fall'. If you do so, it is totally clear that there is no rise and fall in the body, feet and ankles. Waltz, Quick and Foxtrot are based on rise and fall, the body has to swing like a pendulum to convert static energy into dynamic energy and back. The direction of this movement is different. In Waltz, the direction is upward and the amplitude is very wide. In Foxtrot, the direction is more flat and the amplitude is a little bit smaller because you cannot activate your knees like in Waltz. Bending and straigthening of knees is here related to the 'rise and fall' as well as the rising movement of the ankles and toes and the body rise. But this movement can be misinterpreted as rise and fall. I want to give an example (the walk in Foxtrot and Tango). This is what I feel between the steps in Foxtrot: Here I feel Here I feel a little bit a little bit of a rise lowering step ----->> && ----->> step leg straight leg and foot of leg straight ankle neutral supporting leg ankle neutral straight You have to rise a little bit in the foot of the supporting leg to equalize the level difference of standing with closed feet and standing in an open position. In Tango this is a little bit different, but the same problem: Here I feel Here I feel a little bit a little bit of a rise lowering step ----->> && ----->> step leg bent leg allmost leg bent straight In the basic movement (the walk) there is no rise and fall and the head moves on an horizontal line in both dances, but you can mis- interprete the necessary movements in the leg as ''rise and fall''. Long steps can be done by doing a lot of work with your muscles and this can only be done from a flexed leg. In Waltz, Quick and Slow you have to lower to get more gain, in Tango the leg is allready bent and you just have to push out of the floor. I must repeat: There is no rise and fall in Tango, the technical descriptions are clear. Even in 'head snaps' or 'in-out movements' is no rise and fall and no body sway (except of some body lines). But I want to give new stuff for discussion. In Waltz (basic) the rise and fall is given as: begin to rise e./o. 1 continue to rise on 2 and 3 lower e./o. 3 This is not what I feel when dancing the waltz. I start the downswing on the end of 2 and begin to rise on the end of 3. What do you feel ??? -Richard Richard Stoll (stoll@convex.hrz.uni-marburg.de) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 18:19:42 EDT From: susan@odi.com Stoll Richard Dr. writes: > Subject: rise and fall (Tango and other dances) > > Arthur wrote: > > Tango is a very distictive dance, quite different from the other smooth > > dances.... ... the level of your head is not the key ..... > > It is the use of the feet and ankles and leg ........ > > > I agree. I think you cannot compare the basic movement in terms like > 'rise and fall'. If you do so, it is totally clear that there is no > rise and fall in the body, feet and ankles. Waltz, Quick and Foxtrot > are based on rise and fall, the body has to swing like a pendulum > to convert static energy into dynamic energy and back. The direction > of this movement is different. In Waltz, the direction is upward and > the amplitude is very wide. In Foxtrot, the direction is more flat and > the amplitude is a little bit smaller because you cannot activate your > knees like in Waltz. Bending and straigthening of knees is here related > to the 'rise and fall' as well as the rising movement of the ankles and > toes and the body rise. But this movement can be misinterpreted as > rise and fall. I want to give an example (the walk in Foxtrot and Tango). > This is what I feel between the steps in Foxtrot: > > Here I feel Here I feel > a little bit a little bit > of a rise lowering > > step ----->> && ----->> step > > leg straight leg and foot of leg straight > ankle neutral supporting leg ankle neutral > straight > > You have to rise a little bit in the foot of the supporting leg to equalize > the level difference of standing with closed feet and standing in an open > position. > > In Tango this is a little bit different, but the same problem: > > Here I feel Here I feel > a little bit a little bit > of a rise lowering > > step ----->> && ----->> step > > leg bent leg allmost leg bent > straight > > In the basic movement (the walk) there is no rise and fall and the > head moves on an horizontal line in both dances, but you can mis- > interprete the necessary movements in the leg as ''rise and fall''. > Long steps can be done by doing a lot of work with your muscles and > this can only be done from a flexed leg. In Waltz, Quick and Slow > you have to lower to get more gain, in Tango the leg is allready > bent and you just have to push out of the floor. > > I must repeat: There is no rise and fall in Tango, the technical > descriptions are clear. Even in 'head snaps' or 'in-out movements' is > no rise and fall and no body sway (except of some body lines). > The above is a very good description. > But I want to give new stuff for discussion. In Waltz (basic) the > rise and fall is given as: > > begin to rise e./o. 1 > continue to rise on 2 and 3 > lower e./o. 3 > > This is not what I feel when dancing the waltz. I start the downswing > on the end of 2 and begin to rise on the end of 3. What do you feel ??? > You can gather your balance when you have fully risen and when you have fully lowered; in between you cannot. (Please don't interpret this to mean that one does not have control in between; all of that is managed with swing and sway, but that's another kettle of fish.) Anyway, what this all means is that if you were to begin to rise at the end of count 3, then you could not possibly be balanced at that point. But, of course, you want to be balanced at the end of 3, so you would want to be fully lowered. That is my understanding, at least! From: Tom Robertson Subject: Waltz Rise and Fall Date: Sat, 11 Jun 94 14:37:25 EDT Richard Stoll wrote: >But I want to give new stuff for discussion. In Waltz (basic) the >rise and fall is given as: > > begin to rise e./o. 1 > continue to rise on 2 and 3 > lower e./o. 3 > >This is not what I feel when dancing the waltz. I start the downswing >on the end of 2 and begin to rise on the end of 3. What do you feel ??? > I dance "as given". I find the "lower e/o 3" necessary to generate the swing that begins on 1. Tom From: b.crotaz@ic.ac.uk Subject: Tango (even more, yes!) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 94 14:00:56 BST On the subject of whether Tango is Modern or Latin, it _is_ modern Although, in years gone by, it was considered a Latin dance, and Paso Doble was Modern...... Hmmm I must say I agree completely with Kay about the styling of Tango One's head should _never_ rise or fall (vertically, not with "swing") when dancing it. This is one thing that makes the dance so good to do. That and the wonderful head switches. If you finish dancing with concussion, you've won..... I'm sure Kay will contradict me on that when she judges me next.... --------------------------------- BRYAN CROTAZ - b.crotaz@ic.ac.uk --------------------------------- TECHNICAL MANAGER Student Television Of Imperial College Beit Quad, Prince Consort Road London SW7 2BB Tel. 071-594-8104 Fax. 071-225-2309 attn. STOIC Date: Wed, 08 Jun 94 01:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tango.. From: Steven Lam Karen White writes: > *** Comments from H077 - White, Karen; 06/07/94 08:55am: > I believe tango IS a smooth dance. There is no American counterpart > for quickstep that I know of. (Unless you want to consider the > Charleston, but that isn't danced in comps, and it may be a spot > dance, not a travelling one. I only mentioned it because I think > the two dances are done to similar music.) > > American smooth and international standard differ somewhat in steps > and techniques. For instance, international standard has heel turns > for the women, and smooth doesn't. But the biggest difference is > that international standard couples stay in a closed position all the > time. American smooth couples can dance in several different > positions: open, closed, and shadow positions, for instance; then > there are underarm turns, and other things that I can't remember the > names of. > > Karen Hmm.. Tango isn't a smooth dance.. You have to pick up your feet in Tango while all smooth dances have feet gliding on the floor. Furthermore, Tango has no rise and fall while SF,QS,W,&V.W. all has rise and fall. As for Charleston, I think my ballroom instructor does teach that too. I agree with you analysis of the differences between international and american. So, there is no heel turn for the lady in american smooth,eh? Neat! BTW, is there such a thing as syllabus in american style dancing? Slow fox,tango,quickstep,waltz,v. waltz Member of UBC Dance Club & Jive,paso doble,samba,rumba,cha-cha-cha BC Amateur Dancesport Assoc. Date: Tue, 7 Jun 94 13:13:24 PDT From: Josiah Way Subject: American/International Smooth Differences Message-Id: Steve Lam writes: Can you tell me what is the real differences between American smooth style dancing and Internation standard style dancing.. I know that there are American smooth style waltz and v. waltz, fox trot, etc. But is there a counter part in quickstep(international)? I know that tango isn't a smooth dance,right? As for latin & rhythm dancers being more vocal, I think that only go in circle! _______________________________ Hear is my quick attempt to tell you the differnces. I know I'm gonna miss a lot of small points, but here it is generally... The American Smooth Dances: Waltz, Tango, Foxtrot, V.Waltz International Smooth Dances: Waltz, Tango, V. Waltz, Slow Foxtrot, Quickstep So, yes Tango is a smooth dance, and in both American and International. But the difference is little. Basically the difference (in all the smooth dances) is that the lead in International is much more "closed", whereas American styles are [more] allowed to open up and do "solos". Like in the rhythm dances, where there can be small open sections, so can there be in American Smooth. It really is not that common to do, but yes it is done. It makes the American styles a little more "free" in that ther use of the prominade position is used quite a bit more, allowing for more open turns ans spins, dips, et certera. But don't think that I'm saying that these things are not possible in International, but it just more common in American. Also, the International smooth dances have become a lot more standardized, (to me) making it less "fun" to experiment in. I began my dancing career (before switching to int'l latin) doing American Smooth. I got my gold sylibus, and found myself at times not being able to do as many fun things when dancing with a person who has been Internationally trained. But don't get me wrong, I think that the International ones are much more elegant in both look and feel. I short while back, I got really curious to find out the difference, and went to take International classe (I only quickly placed up to gold, 'cuz I had smooth training before). What I found was that the steps were not that different, but the feel and technicalness of them was. It could have just been that I had a different teacher. What was really different was the *lead*. I wish I could pin-point the difference, but I can't. I have intergrated both styles into my dancing, and so I only realize the differences when I dance with extremely differently trained dancers. In which case sometimes I'll have to modify the variations I can try (mostly 'cuz I don't wanna screw up, but..). One other thing is that the International smooth seems to use a leg lead a lot more than American. American "kinda" relies on a shoulder lead, while International, uses more power in the lower sections. I know that that is a gross grenerality, because it is true of American as well, but that's just what I "feel" when leading. ** I never thought about it, but it's kinda strange that I can flip-flop between two different styles, and do advanced variations in both, but not be able to identify a distinct differnce. I think it's 'cuz I already had training in American before going to International classes, and just intergrated the steps and techniquing to my own repertoire. I hope this useless babbling of mine could help you in some way. Date: Tue, 07 Jun 94 01:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: American smooth and International Standard From: Steven Lam Karen White writes: > *** Comments from H077 - White, Karen; 06/06/94 09:17am: > In answer to SLOW_FOX in Canada. . . > > I prefer the American smooth dances, myself. I do the others for > variety and because they are popular and because I would just rather > dance than sit around and watch. It appears that the latin & rhythm > dancers are more vocal, and I wonder if certain personality types > tend to be attracted to certain types of dances. Any opinions or > observations about that? > > Karen Can you tell me what is the real differences between American smooth style dancing and Internation standard style dancing.. I know that there are American smooth style waltz and v. waltz, fox trot, etc. But is there a counter part in quickstep(international)? I know that tango isn't a smooth dance,right? As for latin & rhythm dancers being more vocal, I think that only go in circle! Date: Thu, 16 Jun 94 18:18:21 PDT From: Josiah Way Subject: I was wrong! (Aaaahhhh!) Good day all! I recently posted (started a debate) saying that there does exist a 'rise and fall' in tango. Well, my follow up post is... "oops!" I told my coach, who is a 3x World 10 Dance Champion, about the conversations. He said that in a way, it's a trick question. The general answer as first said is "no!" I then told of the variations I learned and a "bobbing" I saw one (pro) couple doing at an exhibition. He said that I was taught wrong, and the couple was just doing it wrong. But, Geir also said that the dance isn't completely flat.... Get into your knees, and make that top, and then you can emphasize by digging further into you knees. That allows for some lowering and lifting motion, without there being a rise and fall. Joe Way way@aludra.usc.edu From: Josiah Way Subject: I was wrong! (Aaaahhhh!) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 01:18:21 GMT I recently posted (started a debate) saying that there does exist a 'rise and fall' in tango. Well, my follow up post is... "oops!" I told my coach, who is a 3x World 10 Dance Champion, about the conversations. He said that in a way, it's a trick question. The general answer as first said is "no!" I then told of the variations I learned and a "bobbing" I saw one (pro) couple doing at an exhibition. He said that I was taught wrong, and the couple was just doing it wrong. But, Geir also said that the dance isn't completely flat.... Get into your knees, and make that top, and then you can emphasize by digging further into you knees. That allows for some lowering and lifting motion, without there being a rise and fall. From: jeffimig@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Jeff Imig) Subject: Re: I was wrong! (Aaaahhhh!) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 16:30:53 GMT In article , Josiah Way wrote: [...] > couple doing at an exhibition. He said that I was taught > wrong, and the couple was just doing it wrong. But, Geir > also said that the dance isn't completely flat.... [...] Do you feel good now that you know you were wrong? :-) I guess if your goal is to win medals somewhere, then it might be something to worry about. On The Other Hand, if you & your partner enjoy doing something, why not? Two comments a favorite partner & I have recieved: "What dance was that? It looked great!" "You can't do that!" They should have reported us the The Dance Police (TM). Have fun dancin' :) Jeff Imig From: b.crotaz@ic.ac.uk Subject: Tango (even more, yes!) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 94 14:00:56 BST On the subject of whether Tango is Modern or Latin, it _is_ modern Although, in years gone by, it was considered a Latin dance, and Paso Doble was Modern...... Hmmm I must say I agree completely with Kay about the styling of Tango One's head should _never_ rise or fall (vertically, not with "swing") when dancing it. This is one thing that makes the dance so good to do. That and the wonderful head switches. If you finish dancing with concussion, you've won..... I'm sure Kay will contradict me on that when she judges me next.... --------------------------------- BRYAN CROTAZ - b.crotaz@ic.ac.uk --------------------------------- TECHNICAL MANAGER Student Television Of Imperial College Beit Quad, Prince Consort Road London SW7 2BB Tel. 071-594-8104 Fax. 071-225-2309 attn. STOIC Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 22:44:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kay A. Teague" Subject: Re: Tango Rise & Fall I had to smile when Joe Way recalled being judged 1st in a comp (congratulations, by the way!) when he maybe wasn't being 100% correct and wondered if the judges had missed a slip or two. You didn't indicate how many rounds you danced, but usually in the earlier rounds a judge can only spend a few fleeting seconds on each couple, especially one good enough in his/her view to make it through to the next round/final. So, once you've impressed them sufficiently, they're usually figuring out which of the others to "mark" through. I do recall a local judge (nationally known) who, upon marking a couple through to their first "semi-final" in a pre-champ competition at the Classique De Quebec, was asked why she had marked them (they were excited, but _very_ surprised to have "made it"). Her response was, "compared to the other couples who did not make it through, your dancing was relatively inoffensive." Now while that sounds like an unbelievable put-down, it's probably all that most of us can hope for in a comp ... that our judges will find us (compared to the others) to be "relatively inoffensive" and therefore worthy of a mark (8-:). And, to think that we must pay for the privilege, too. ^_^ Kay T. Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 22:17:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kay A. Teague" Subject: Re: Tango (even more, yes!) Bryan writes: ".... If you finish dancing with concussion, you've won...." !! That sure does bring back a memory: Several years ago (approaching 15, actually), I was attending an ISTD competition at Cherry Hill (New Jersey) when at the dance, after the Saturday night dinner, I was asked to dance by a gentleman (and I was completely unaware, at that moment, that it was John Kimmins [who had been a world champion and who since has become the Ballroom Director for Arthur Murrays, etc., etc.]). The dance was a Tango. The first "link" enabled me to achieve such a stunning, sharp, head-turn that my right earring flew off, didn't hit the floor for several yards, then skidded under I-knew-not-where. I DIDN'T CARE. The next link caused a similar fate to the OTHER earring. I CARED EVEN LESS. The moral of the story is, if you're going to have a spin around the floor with a world class dancer (in Tango), don't wear clip-ons! I should add that I had several other opportunities to dance with John over the years, but will _never_ forget that Tango . . . . Seriously, though, it does bring up another point you mentioned Bryan, about the "wonderful head switches." So often on the floor (_almost_ always, it seems) one sees the lady and gent NOT in synch with each other when their heads are supposed to turn sharply, e.g., during a link. What is often missed (or not learned) is that the proper way for the gentleman to lead it is from his BODY lead, and, when properly executed (assuming he has a readable lead, they are in body contact, have the correct knee compression, and assuming she is a very responsive follower, and hopefully since their heads ought to be attached to their respective spines!), when properly lead, the lady CANNOT AVOID matching her partner's head movements so precisely that it looks smashing. That's precisely what had happened when I danced with JK, _I_ didn't do it, _he_ "made me do it" ... and it was sooooooo _easy_ ... no effort at all! One last thing, Bryan, to set the record straight, I can't contradict you when I next judge you on account of the fact that I'm not a professional, paid or otherwise! Just a Brit who was trained over there and has been around a loooooong time. (^_^) Kay Date: Wed, 22 Jun 94 17:18:38 PDT From: Josiah Way Subject: Re: Geir Bakke and Tango Even though I don't like speaking for other people (specially when it's someone like Geir Bakke), I can guess what he would say, just in knowing him. He is really into the idea of following. Even my comp routines are to be lead, for purposes of better connections between myself and my partner, and a better (more intimate) look to the dances. Therefor, I would assume that, yes, the female would have to sense that the man is getting further down. And because the touch is so close in International Modern (his emphasis) that is a bit easier to do. Of course, this may be something done mostly with a partner who are very used to. But he would say this: a good leader can lead *anything*. At least that's what he keeps telling me (now hopefully soon I can do it (he he!)). But, that's the best I can do for now. Oh, one other thing, so that you know exactly what I (he) mean by the word "emphasising", to "emphasise" Geir would mean to "show more technique". He pounds this through all the time. And that little extra on bends, tricks, and even steps, can make all the difference in showing to anyone and the judges that you know what you are doing. Joe Date: Sun, 10 Jul 94 16:54:36 PDT From: Josiah Way Subject: Geir Bakke and Int'l Tango Well, here's what Geir had to say about the Tango. I first just asked him about how one could emphasize "by getting into the knees". I don't know what I told you what he'd say about this, but he answered just as I thought. Emphasis in the International Modern dances happens when your normal stride is pushed a little further than normal, yet taken a bit quicker. I know this doesn't seem to make sense, but here's how he broke it down... if you were to step on the count (say 1), then by 1e you would transfer all weight. Then at 1&, you would begin a downward push into your knees, but don't yet step. At 1a you would commence your step, then being split weight on 2, and then full weight on 2e. And just continue this over and over, taking into account of the time you need between steps. This motion causes the audience to still think that you are traveling through your steps, while at the same time getting the most out of them. He then said... most people think that you step on the count and then spend the rest of the time upto the next count working through your step. But he said that the real technique to get the most emphasis is just the opposite. You "pause" (though in actuality you never stop) in the middle of the counts, and move through the actual counts. Thus, you commence a1, step 1, place 1e. I hope this makes sense. Other techniquing he gave is to use the *lead*. A strong partnership, he says, is based on the lead and the woman' connection to that lead. If the man feels that there is a possibilty to get a bit more out each step, the partner *must* be aware. Style he thinks should not be choerographed, or it'll look fake. You can choreograph feet and arm placement, but to emphasize a step, the lead and follow must be present. Digging into the knees is felt by the follower through the leg and thigh lead, as well, extraneous holds and upper-body extensions are felt through a shoulder lead. Joe Way way@aludra.usc.edu