Re: [TANGO-L] Neverending Ochos

[Carlos Rojas <Crojas @HACIENDACDC.ORG>]

Don Carlos Lima,
I still stand by my comment, I think it is difficult if not impossible
for a follower to go on automatic ochos (forward, back or any other
step) if the leader has a strong frame and a clear lead, you can be
strong and gentle at the same time.  At least this has been my
experience, and have hear it many times from experienced Argentine
teachers with many decades of dancing (male & female).

It took me several years to finally realize how strong the frame needs
to be, and when I initially posted the comment about the strong frame, I
also asked the question:  "has anyone danced in Buenos Aires with an
experienced milonguero(a) that does not have a strong frame?"
The only answers I got were to confirm this fact.

One aspect that I teach my follower students, is that they can control
the man when he is new, is a jerk, does not know what he is doing, or is
bumping into other couples.  The follower can control the steps,
direction and rhythm, she can accomplish this by making her frame
stronger than the man's.

An interesting aspect of tango music is the variety of rhythms that a
couple can dance to.  One of my favor parts is when I suggest a beat to
my partner, then I dance to a different one with totally different steps
than she does.  What is even more interesting, is when she gets it and
starts adorning her steps to complement the music.

Happy New Year.

Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
[mailto:TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Carlos Lima
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 1:54 PM
To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Neverending Ochos

Carlos Rojas <Crojas @HACIENDACDC.ORG> wrote (quoting?):
>
Should the frame be weak or firm? I think here rests the answer, if your
frame is not firm and commanding, then the follower has no direction as
to
what to do.  This is not the follower's fault, but the leader's.
<

Results from my introspection, quite possibly not applicable to others.
Special situations aside, I offer a firm, meaning, most certainly not
soggy,
frame (call it what you may); or a gentle (I hope) but positive apilado
embrace. (Face to face in all cases, or close enough to that.)

Zero pressure by default, or close enough to that.

I am style-flexible, so I do not need to contradict reasonable
preferences of
my partners' as to kind of embrace.

Now this is only half of the story. The other half is up to her. In
fact, the
whole thing is up to her. Most experienced dancers in my neck of the
woods
prefer a light touch, and the good ones are of course not soggy, nor do
they
need to be "reigned in". Some want extreme lightness in a very flexible
embrace, what we could call a "virtual connection"; others want
something a
bit more substantial.

Rightly or wrongly, I believe that all of this is really lady's choice.
She
appears to me to determine the amount of resistance offered and,
consequently, the level of "control pressures" (as in pilot's jargon).
If she
cannot stay with me every millimeter of the way with her choice, c'est
la
vie: there is nothing I care to do about that, except maybe with a first
timer who wants me to help a bit.

What about non-stop ochos? Oh, girls learn that in classes, and soon
start
improving, thank goodness. I eventually figured out that one must take
very
seriously the idea that virtually all movements in tango are neither for
the
man nor for the woman, but for the couple. The woman does not "do" ochos
as
the man does something else, or nothing. THEY do ochos, or whatever.
Took me
quite a while, stupid me, to realize some of the finer logical
consequences
of this. Oh, by the way, a woman and a wall do not constitute a couple,
either.

Cheers,



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