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Digest from 29 Sep 2000
to 30 Sep 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 03:00:31 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 29 Sep 2000 to 30 Sep 2000 (#2000-264)
There are 6 messages totalling 443 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. And more and more on "Flintstones" tango
2. Styles of Argentine Tango (Adorably Long) (2)
3. More on "Flintstones" tango (3)
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Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:16:36 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi-SMC Argentina- HQ <adm @SMCAR.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: And more and more on "Flintstones" tango
Astrid said:
> >
> > Later, if you really listen to the music go for Di Sarli (marvelous!!!,
> the best music for dance tango!!!), then Pugliese.
>
> In my tango school Di Sarli was used for absolute beginners, then
D'Arienzo
> and Co, Pugliese for intermediates...
> And Piazzolla is always played late at night in the European milongas.
> But I wish they would play it earlier, not when I am tired and ready to go
> home, and just still hanging around waiting for the more interesting
music.
> And milonga is for those who dare dance that rhythm. It is not for dummies
> over here, but for those who have mastered the basics and are able to move
> on to learning milonga and valse too.
I have followed this different opinions and they are very interesting. One
thing that I am curious about is this one:
Nobody talked about hearing your female/male companion !!!
His/her breathing, the tum tum tum of his/her heart , the way that his/her
body reacts to your body movement.
It is as if the type of music to be played was of an utmost importance .
And your partner ??? This precious jewel, this gift that is in your arms
"out of the blue", this magical moment with an unknown man/woman that maybe
you will never see again ??
Hey flintstones !!! I am talking about dancing tango embedded one into each
other !!! A body with four legs !!!
Keep well
Alberto
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:00:32 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Styles of Argentine Tango (Adorably Long)
Some of the recent discussions on Tango-L have prompted some
individuals to ask how the various styles of Argentine tango are
defined. I have attempted to pull together definitions of a variety
of styles which I have included below. Although I have made every
attempt to write clear and accurate definitions, they are for for
entertainment purposes only. I take no responsibility for the
inevitable disagreements that will arise.
--Steve de Tejas
P.S. I hope this is absolutely adored by my friend who likes
everything that I have written, particularly the ones that were long
and absolutely on target.
STYLES OF ARGENTINE TANGO
In Buenos Aires and other parts of Argentina, tango is danced in a
spectrum of individualistic or personal styles, and many tango dancers
who are Argentine do not accept a categorization of their own dancing
by any stylistic name. They simply say they are dancing tango. A few
confuse the issue further by identifying their own style by a name
that other dancers associate with a different style. Consequently,
clearly describing the characteristic of various styles is difficult,
challenging and potentially controversial. Nonetheless, the
commonalities and differences that can be found across the continuum
of individual styles allow rough definitions of a number of
distinguishable styles of Argentine tango: salon, orillero,
milonguero, club, nuevo, fantasia, and canyengue.
Salon-Style Tango
Salon-style tango is typically danced with an upright body posture.
The embrace can be close or open, but it is typically offset (with
each dancer's center slightly to the right of their partner's center)
and in a V (with the woman's left shoulder closer to the man's right
shoulder than her right shoulder is to his left shoulder). When
salon-style is danced in an open embrace, the distance between the
partners allows the woman to execute her turns more freely without
requiring much independent movement between her hips and torso. When
salon-style is danced in a close embrace, the couple loosens their
embrace slightly on their turns to allow the woman rotate more freely
without requiring much independent movement between her hips and
torso. Salon-style tango is typically danced to the most strongly
accented beat of tango music played in 4x4 time such as DiSarli.
Those who dance salon-style tango to Juan D'Arienzo or Rodolfo Biagi
typically ignore the strong ric-tic-tic rhythmic pulses that
characterize the music. Salon-style tango requires that dancers
exercise respect for the line of dance.
Orillero-Style Tango
Orillero-style tango was developed in the outlying neighborhoods of
and around Buenos Aires where there was more space on social dance
floors. In many respects, orillero-style tango is like salon-style
tango. It is danced with upright body posture, and the embrace is
typically offset in a V and can be either close or open. In the turns,
the woman is allowed to move freely without requiring much independent
movement between her hips and torso. When orillero-style tango is
danced in a close embrace, the couple loosens the embrace slightly to
accommodate the turns. Orillero-style tango differs from salon-style
tango because it adds playful, space-consuming embellishments and
figures that do not always respect the line of dance. Many of the
playful elements are executed to the ric-tic-tic rhythmic pulses that
characterize the music of Juan D'Arienzo and Rodolfo Biagi.
Milonguero-Style Tango
Milonguero-style tango is typically danced with a slightly leaning
posture that joins the upper torsos of the two dancers in a
chest-to-chest embrace (that Argentine's call apilado) while allowing
a little bit of distance between the couple's feet. The embrace is
also typically closed with the woman's right shoulder as close to her
partner's left shoulder as her left shoulder is to his right. Some
practitioners of this style suggest that each dancer lean against
their partner. Others say that the lean is more of an illusion in
which each partner maintains their own balance, but leans forward just
enough to complete the embrace. The couple maintains a constant upper
body contact and does not loosen their embrace to accommodate turns or
ochos which requires the woman to rotate her hips quite independently
of her torso or limits the couple to walking steps. Milonguero-style
tango is typically danced to the ric-tic-tic rhythm that characterizes
the music of Juan D'Arienzo and Rodolfo Biagi, but can also be found
in the music of may other tango orchestras. The ocho cortado is one
the characteristic figures of milonguero-style tango because it
integrates the embrace with rhythmic sensibilities of the style.
Milonguero-style tango can also be identified as apilado-, cafe-, and
confiteria-style tango. One of the leading dancers of the style,
Tete, refers to his own style of tango as salon.
Club-Style Tango
Club-style tango merges the sensibilities of the salon and milonguero
styles of tango. Club-style tango is danced with an upright posture
in an offset close embrace in a V. The couple loosens their embrace
slightly on their turns to allow the woman rotate more freely without
requiring much independent movement between her hips and torso.
Club-style tango is typically danced to the ric-tic-tic rhythm that
characterizes the music of Juan D'Arienzo and Rodolfo Biagi, but can
also be found in the music of many other tango orchestras. Club-style
tango uses the ocho cortado and other rhythmic figures that are found
in milonguero-style tango.
Tango Nuevo (New Tango)
Tango nuevo is largely a pedagogic approach to tango that places an
emphasis on new figures that are found through a structural analysis
of the elements of the dance. The style is danced in an open, loose
embrace with a very upright posture, and great emphasis is placed on
each dancer maintaining their own axis. Some of the figures that are
emphasized in this style are overturn ochos, and change of directions
in turns which are more easily accomplished in a loose embrace.
Fantasia (Show Tango)
Fantasia is danced in tango stage shows. It is a combination of the
salon-, orillero- and nuevo-styles of tango danced in an open embrace
with additional elements (often taken from ballet) that are not part
of the social tango vocabulary. These balletic elements are a natural
extension of salon-style tango because the partnering in salon-style
tango is balletic in nature.
Canyengue
Canyengue is a historical form of tango danced in the 1930s that may
or may not have been accurately captured by some of its recent
practitioners.
ADDITIONAL COMMENTS ABOUT STYLE
Which Style is Authentic?
All of these styles have some degree of authenticity because they draw
from the practices, idioms and historical precedents of Argentine
tango as it is and was danced in Buenos Aires, Montevideo, and other
cities in Argentina and Uruguay. Some styles are more popular in a
particular city or in venues within a city, but popularity should not
be confused with authenticity. Fantasia is authentic for stage
dancing, but not for social dancing.
Which Styles Have an Open Embrace and Which Have a Close Embrace?
All of the styles except tango nuevo and fantasia can be danced in a
close embrace. Although salon and orillero-style tango can be danced
in a open embrace, they are more typically danced in a close embrace
in Buenos Aires and other parts of Argentina. Milonguero- and
club-style tango are only danced in a close embrace. The
milonguero-style is also typically closed with the woman's right
shoulder as close to her partner's left shoulder as her left shoulder
is to his right. Some of the figures that are emphasized in tango
nuevo can be danced in the offset, close embrace in a V that is used
in salon-, orillero-, and club-style tango.
Embrace and Frame
Some people distinguish between milonguero and other styles of tango
by claiming that the frame in milonguero style tango is in the woman,
and in other styles the frame is created in the arms of the embrace.
Whether the frame is inside the woman or in the arms of the embrace
depends largely upon the closeness and softness of the embrace. A
firm, distant embrace places the frame in the arms of the embrace. As
the embrace becomes closer and softer, the frame is moved into the
woman's body in all styles.
Which Styles Are Improvisational and Which Are Choreographed?
All of the styles are potentially improvisational including fantasia.
Many instructors of salon-style tango and fantasia emphasize memorized
figures. Performance tango is often choreographed.
Which Styles are Feeling and Which Are Analytical?
Some people look upon improvisation in salon, orillero, and nuveo
tango as puzzle pieces that are assembled as you dance, and those who
teach the structure of tango within these styles can emphasize the
analytical nature of the dance. If these styles are held in the
intellectual domain and not moved into the intuitive and emotional
domains they can remain a dry, analytical puzzle. Dancers and
instructors of the milonguero-style tango often emphasize the
intuitive and feeling aspects of the style, but it can be approached
in an equally analytical manner to the other styles.
Aren't Salon Tango and Fantasia Really the Same?
Salon-style tango and fantasia are distinct styles, but fantasia is an
extension of salon-style tango and relies heavily upon salon-style
tango for its basic movements. Fantasia adds balletic elements and
showy figures and embellishments that are inappropriate for social
dancing. Some tango instructors confuse the two styles for their
students by teaching an indistinguishable blend of social and stage
figures.
Ric-Tic-Tic Rhythm
Some describe the ric-tic-tic rhythm of tango as 2x4 and others
describe it as three against two. My own listening and dancing leads
me to subscribe to the three against two interpretation, which is a
syncopated rhythm. Some orchestras played tangos in 2x4 time, but
included the syncopated rhythms of three against two.
-Wow: That Was Long-
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:04:51 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22LIGER_Michel=2C_CETE_M=E9diterr=2E/DIT=22?=
<michel.liger @EQUIPEMENT.GOUV.FR>
Subject: Re: More on "Flintstones" tango
Hi listees
Melinda (or her secret informer) wrote:
>I don't play too much milongas, one step one beat....only for
>dummies..
Astrid answered:
>And milonga is for those who dare dance that rhythm. It is not for dummies
>over here, but for those who have mastered the basics and are able to move
>on to learning milonga and valse too.
A European view to support Astrid: here we love dancing milonga. It is not
that easy to catch the rythm when learning and many people have problems.
It is not necessarily "one step one beat", though it tends to be so.
When you really get in the milonga, it is relaxing, exhilarating and still
connected to tango but with a dramatic change of mood.
We also do adore dancing argentine valses. This is easier to learn, and a
very specific pleasure. But you all know this, I expect.
Joyful milongas for those who can.
Michel the dummy
Michel Liger
Aix en Provence, France
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:19:24 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi-SMC Argentina- HQ <adm @SMCAR.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Styles of Argentine Tango (Adorably Long)
Good for you Stephen
Adorably long but accurate, I may sai this qualify as FAQ about styles of
argie tango
Imagine what happens in an average milonga dancing , when all these styles
are tried to been danced all at once !!!
The China Syndrome !!! The floor of the milonga ball room begun to sink and
melt , while the frenzy milongueros and milongueras made quicker ..and
quicker ..and quicker steps all the way long to China !!!
keep well
Alberto
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:01:19 -0400
From: Silvia Borelli <silvia.borelli @OPERAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: More on "Flintstones" tango
>===== Original Message From Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET> =====
> So. I don't play too much milongas, one step one beat....only for
> dummies...(I never dance in the beat...I dance the melody. I choose an
>instrument, or the dialogue between violin and bandoneon and I dance that,
> this is the way to dance tango, slow, focus in the music and not rushing
>and
> doing ganchos everywhere...
>(Melinda adding here, his dancing is deeply emotional and deceptively
>"simple".)
>
> Enjoy it!!
>
> Your secret informer.
Dear "secret informer" (can we call you Eduardo?):
My personal belief is that people who don't dance to beat are people without
rhythm. But you should not be ashamed of it, "Eduardo". With years of practice
and studying with good teachers you may be able to acquire it. Sometimes,
learning to play a musical instrument can also help. Ever thought of picking
up a bandoneon? By the way, ganchos are an aquired skill also.
Best wishes,
Silvia.
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:47:10 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: More on "Flintstones" tango
I have noticed that to dance milongas well requires a lot of skill and
talent. Unlike tango which sometimes allows the dancer to dance off the
beat, the milonga demands that the beat be maintained. Also, I've seen that
the truly good milonga dancers can and do dance more than one step per beat.
It is called traspie and it really takes a good dancer to do it well.
Anybody who watches Pocho Pizarro or Facundo & Kelly (and a few others)
dance the milonga and call it "for dummies" is surely not paying much
attention.
I also don't particularly like the moniker "Flintstones tango" for the music
of Darienzo, Biagi, etc. I think it is a mistake to equate a caricature with
some of the best "classical" tango music. Dancing to the beat of the music
is the principal skill needed to dance tango well. IMHO, only after
mastering the rhythm can a dancer move into artistic expression of the later
music of Pugliese or Piazzolla. I might as well opine on another canard: "Di
Sarli's music is strictly for beginners". This is simply not true. Ask the
contemporary masters about their opinion of Di Sarli. Better yet, try
dancing to it well and see what happens.
It is true that the music of Di Sarli is used a lot by teachers to introduce
tango to beginners. This is because it's steady, fairly slow and majestic
beat. It is also true that Darienzo, Biagi, Troilo and others have very
accented and relatively quick beats. It does not mean that these are
"Flintstones" music or inferior in some way. It is also true that (later)
Pugliese and Piazzolla music is extremely challenging to dance, and dancing
to the melody is quite excellent and satisfying. This does not mean that it
is superior in some way and that those who dance like that are all good
dancers. I'vev seen many a poor dancer do violence tho the music of Pugliese
and think they are doing very well. I can certainly understand their
frustration with the music of Darienzo et al because they cannot follow the
demanding beat.
While there is tango music out there that is fairly undanceable and only for
the tangophile's consumption, but certainly, none of the orchestras
mentioned fall in that category except for certain of their more modern
recordings (yes, almost all of them recorded undanceable music in the more
recent past). I think that these types of arguments are in the same category
as the "apilado" vs. "all other styles" religios wars. They only serve to
divide and cause discord where there is none.
Wonderful tangos to all,
Manuel
www.tango-rio.com
Original Message -----
From: "Silvia Borelli" <silvia.borelli @OPERAMAIL.COM>
> >===== Original Message From Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
=====
> > So. I don't play too much milongas, one step one beat....only for
> > dummies
snip
>> this is the way to dance tango, slow, focus in the music and not rushing
> >and
> > doing ganchos everywhere...
snip
> > Your secret informer.
>
> Dear "secret informer" (can we call you Eduardo?):
>
> My personal belief is that people who don't dance to beat are people
without
> rhythm. But you should not be ashamed of it, "Eduardo
snip
By the way, ganchos are an aquired skill also.
>
> Best wishes,
> Silvia.
>
End of TANGO-L Digest - 29 Sep 2000 to 30 Sep 2000 (#2000-264)
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