The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 25 Sep 2000
to 26 Sep 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 03:00:07 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 25 Sep 2000 to 26 Sep 2000 (#2000-260)
There are 13 messages totalling 520 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Logorrhea.
2. About Milonga "The Two by Four rhythm"
3. Show Tango (3)
4. Tango Shows (3)
5. URLs: Tango lyrics? Dance terms?
6. Flintstones tango
7. GOOD NEWS !!! GOOD NEWS " choreography award for tango
8. Tango in Finland and in France, Swing in Spain
9. Logorrhea
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 00:30:15 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Logorrhea.
TANGO-L is for every aspect of the Argentine tango. If you don't like
someone's postings, either ignore them or post your disagreement on
the subject. But don't try to censor TANGO-L by telling someone to
shut up.
Larry
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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 00:34:17 -0700
From: Vortxinc <vortxinc @IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: About Milonga "The Two by Four rhythm"
To our Tango friends:
About Milonga "The Two by Four rhythm" (in the South Bay of the SF Bay
Area)
Last night September 23rd, we started the new milonga in Campbell at the
Spectrum Salon.
We would like to express our appreciation to a large number of people
who attended this evening of Tango. We had an
attendance of more than 125 people from all corners of the Bay area.
On the positive side: I believe we all had a very good time and all the
comments that I heard had the common denominator that the attending
tango community liked the format of the milonga very much.
I would like to mention our special appreciation to several people who
volunteered to help in several ways: Lew Smith as the official MC; Terry
Ulloa who took care of the entrance desk; Anton who helped with the
set-up, Donna who organized a "birthday celebration" for Michael
Proctor, and several other people who helped with the dismantling and
clean-up at 2:00 AM
It is not for me to say that it was an excellent milonga, but that is
what people who attended have been saying today. Those who did not
attend for one reason or another, may actually hear more independent
comments from people who attended. I received many phone calls today
Sunday from people to say how much they really liked our new milonga.
We had the privilege of the presence of "il Nono" (Jorge Ledesma and his
wife Rosita) who as milongueros from Argentina were the first Argentine
couple to teach Tango in the Bay area something like 14 years ago. Jorge
Ledesma danced in Argentina in the peak years of Tango and last night we
all had the opportunity to see them dance the milonga "El Esquinazo" in
an impromptu improvisation. - Thank you Jorge & Rosita.
"Count and Jasmine"; young revelations of local talent, danced a
powerful rendition of "Felicia" by D'Arienzo. They received a vibrant
applause and they were asked to dance a second piece. This time "La
Cumparsita" by D'Arienzo.
They gave an excellent performance that the public enjoyed very much -
Thank you Jasmine & Count.
=================================
On the negative side: My apologies to Fernando Fillipelli for not
announcing his Milonga in Carmel. The message came to me too late and
the announcement was not done.
Here it is:
Saturday October 14th. TANGO in Carmel, California in a beautiful and
Elegant Hall. Sunset Center Scout House * Mission and 8th * Across from
Sunset Parking Lot* Hwy 1 South * Exit on Ocean Ave. Carmel * Left on
Mission St. NW corner Mission and 8th * Parking in Sunset Center Parking
Lot. $ 10.00 ; Beginners Lesson 7:30 to 8:30. Dance begins at 8:30
email: Tangobay @hotmail.com
=================================
Thank you all, for making possible a wonderful evening of Tango in the
South Bay !
Spencer & Vanessa
Hosts of Milonga "The Two by Four rhythm" (in the South Bay of the SF
Bay Area)
in Campbell, CA on the fourth Saturday of the Month.
Email: vortxinc @ix.netcom.com
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 01:29:44 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Show Tango
Stephen Brown suggests that the Nasty Nine I was unhappy about a few
days ago (because they were hogging the floor & doing dangerous things)
were ignorant of social tango technique & conventions. That's true at
some milongas here in Los Angeles attended mostly by beginners. But the
milongas I tend to go to have a lot of the most experienced & dedicated
tango dancers. And the nine I was talking about were exactly the ones
who should know better. A couple of them are good enough that I'll
occasionally watch them to get ideas for new "steps."
Since a lot of equally good & experienced dancers there that night WERE
respecting others, I conclude that the ones I was unhappy about are
simple selfish people determined to do what they want regardless of who
it hurts.
_________________________________________________________
I must emphasize something I've said before. What's wrong with show
tango on the social dance floor is not using any particular "step" or
technique. It's the MISUSE of them that is wrong.
Every figure I've ever seen done on the stage can be used on the social
dance floor, including leaps/lifts. That last is something I'll do
occasionally - but only with the right partner, in the right circum-
stance, & modified for the apparent chaos of social dance.
Usually this means that I only do it when the music is ending: when
I lift her onto my hip or leg the lift acts as an "exclamation mark"
that ends the dance. The floor is open enough that if some clueless
person is still moving I can see them in time to protect everyone.
Even on a relatively empty floor I make sure that the act is compact,
with no legs flailing out, & the motion pretty much straight up & down.
And I make sure that both she & I are in excellent command of our
bodies - I do NOT want to make a fool of myself by falling down. Or
worse, dropping her!
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 16:09:17 -0400
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Shows
William Alsup wrote:
Ultimately, I don't believe it's very useful to divide tango dancers into
open and close style camps, or even "show" vs. "social" camps. But I do
believe you can divide them along the lines of aware vs. unaware, and
considerate vs. inconsiderate. Those who choose to do fancy steps have a
slightly harder job when it comes to consideration and awareness of others
on the dance floor (as well as comfort for the follower).
I agree with William Alsup posting in a sense that there is no comparison
between the two ways tango is danced by us, the amatures. The frustration with
"fantasia", "show", "open style", etc. "STYLES" is voiced by many of us, simply
because we can see how comicly these people look when they pretend to do steps
PROFESSIONALS practice for hours to subsequently perform on STAGE, for wages.
How many of us would even consider repeating things that are done in OLYMPIC
GAMES just because we love to watch the sport? These "STYLISTS" are simply
lacking necessary SKILLS!
Eugenia
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 06:59:48 -0500
From: "kata @pitton.com" <kata @PITTON.COM>
Subject: URLs: Tango lyrics? Dance terms?
Does anyone have a list of favorite tango URLs bookmarked? I'm looking for
sites that have lyrics.
Also, I'm looking for sites that explain tango dance terms in either
language, like What's an ocho, that sort of thing.
Thanks,
Kate
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:03:45 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi-SMC Argentina- HQ <adm @SMCAR.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Flintstones tango
yes dario, it was exactly what I meant to say.
but sometimes Carlos is too much inside his books and missed the point
thank you for your comment
alberto gesualdi
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:15:26 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi-SMC Argentina- HQ <adm @SMCAR.COM.AR>
Subject: GOOD NEWS !!! GOOD NEWS " choreography award for tango
2000 American Coreography Awards-September 24th, 2000
Award for Best Choreography in a Feature Film for the movie "Tango"
Juan Carlos Copes ,Carlos Rivarola & Ana Maria Stekelman -
Nominees
DANCE WITH ME Liz Curtis, Daryl Matthews
TANGO Juan Carlos Copes, Carlos Rivarola & Ana Maria Stekelman
Austin Powers "The Spy who Shagged Me" Marguerite Derricks
SHAKESPEARE IN LOVE Quinny Sacks
ELIZABETH Sue Lefton
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:38:47 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Show Tango
Larry wrote:
>Stephen Brown suggests that the Nasty Nine I was unhappy about a few
>days ago (because they were hogging the floor & doing dangerous
>things) were ignorant of social tango technique & conventions. ...
>[T]he nine I was talking about were exactly the ones who should know
>better.
As Larry suggests, I was not present at the milonga and do not know
the background or dance skills of the nasty nine.
Of course, Larry's comments that the nasty nine he was talking about
should know better, raises the issue as to why they did not. Were
they confused, idiotic, ignorant, or selfish? In his own comments,
Larry points out the very mentality that is at the root of the
problem. He wrote:
>Every figure I've ever seen done on the stage can be used on the
>social dance floor, including leaps/lifts.
I could not disagree more. Once the line between social and
exhibition dancing is obliterated, anti-social dancing too easily
becomes the norm. The nasty nine demonstrated the anti-social
consequences of a mentality that merges social and show dancing.
Fortunately, most professional exhibition dancers recognize the
differences and do not execute their exhibition figures when dancing
socially.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:35:20 -0400
From: Nitin Kibe <nkibe @WORLDBANK.ORG>
Subject: Tango in Finland and in France, Swing in Spain
http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/Saturday-Times/frontpage.html
Go to the Travel Section and then click on the titles below. Hope it works and enjoy.
Nitin Kibe
***********************
Dance holidays - Hot steps guaranteed to break the ice (Finland)
I took the easy option - but still had a ball (France)
Elevated in the pecking order (Spain)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:06:16 MST
From: Judy Margolis <tangomas @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Shows
Dear List
After reading much of the present discussion about show vs salon or
milonguero tango (or any other name you want to use for what-ever stile you
want to describe) I have come up with a question. How would you describe
the kind of tango I like to dance. When the floor is crowded I dance close,
take practically no back steps unless I have good evidence that the way is
clear. Some times in Buenos Aires, Judy and I found ourselves so closely
packed the challenge was to keep musicality with out being able to move more
than one step forward without having to change direction. When the floor
clears a bit I still like to dance close but when the occasion arises I like
to separate and do what I call an "in line figure", a turn a pivot, a change
of direction that works within the line of dance, and if there is room and
if my partner has good balance I may even do a close embrace molinete where
our feet do not go outside the area our bodies occupy (well, not by much).
Later when the floor clears a little more, I love taking advantage of the
space, and even though I still like feeling a woman's body against mine it's
really cool when you can execute one or two steps of an in line cadena. If
a woman is positioned to the outside of the dance floor well you can even
invite a gancho in the cadena or even execute multiple amages quite safely.
And even later, when there is only a few couples on the dance floor, God
forbid La Jumba or such hits the air, all stops come out and it's sort of
"oh yea but can you do this?" And we do lifts and all sort of neat stuff.
That can take us to two in the morning easily where those with hearts that
are still willing and with whose bodies are still able, we trade need steps
and complicated maneuvers . . . "man . . . that was cool . . . show me how
you did that!!!" Then there is the inevitable trip to an all night coffee
shop where we introduce ourselves to our newly found friends and talk, you
guessed it, tango.
I guess were sort of miloshowsal dancers, or something like that.
Jon y Judy
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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:05:43 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Show Tango
> Larry wrote:
>
> >Stephen Brown suggests that the Nasty Nine I was unhappy about a few
> >days ago (because they were hogging the floor & doing dangerous
> >things) were ignorant of social tango technique & conventions. ...
> >[T]he nine I was talking about were exactly the ones who should know
> >better.
>
> As Larry suggests, I was not present at the milonga and do not know
> the background or dance skills of the nasty nine.
>
> Of course, Larry's comments that the nasty nine he was talking about
> should know better, raises the issue as to why they did not. Were
> they confused, idiotic, ignorant, or selfish? In his own comments,
> Larry points out the very mentality that is at the root of the
> problem. He wrote:
>...
> --Steve de Tejas
Perhaps more importantly:
Who were their teachers?
I'm sure they learned from many, as have we all, but do they have one
teacher or style which they look up to for their inspiration?
All teachers have students who cause them embarrassment, but if there
is a pattern, then it is the teacher who should be embarrassed.
As our communities mature it becomes obvious
- whose students dance well and whose don't;
- which master teachers build communities by leaving behind good students
- which organizers have a positive vision
--
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:24:15 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Shows
The Margolises:
>
After reading much of the present discussion about show vs salon or
milonguero tango (...) I have come up with a question. How would you
describe the kind of tango I like to dance.
<
What I would call what Mrs and Mr Margolis say they do is (surprisingly) not
miloshowsal, but rather a very virtuous thing that is also what just about
anybody without cobwebs in the brain would tend to want to do --- if they
knew enough to do it. Details aside, it fairly well describes (in part) what
I do, and what I see many reasonable people do --- dance floor terrorists
conspicuous exceptions. There are of course other issues that may or not
interest interest ME more, but are valid considerations, I would venture to
say. For instance, I dance with many different women all the time, so I
cannot do what I damn well please, because, you know, they are there, and I
must dance what they can dance and are happy dancing. I also tend to want my
type of movements to reflect musical differences, you know, starting, but not
ending, with the not so subtle differences between tango, vals, milonga, and
tango milonga. (If I may be so brash as to make at least these tiny
distinctions, with everybody's permission.)
On the other hand, the general tenor of what the Margolises have to say has
nothing much to do with valid style distinctions. In general they are talking
about how close they dance, and what moves are possible according to, above
all, how much space is available AROUND THEM. Well, it is not much to say
that the more space you have, the more expansive you CAN be. When I have an
entire large floor for myself and a regular partner, or a very fancy one, I
do go wild for a little while, guaranteed; but we may very well also embrace
apilados and move around the floor (by the way, with LOTS of man's back steps
DOWN the line of dance) in the same way that we would if we were at one of
the three most crowded venues in New York. Because there are other
considerations to being expansive besides being able to. Lately I have been
lucky to dance a fair amount with very versatile professional Argentinean
tangueras, and I am taking to changing gears in the middle of a number ---for
instance, going from vals apilado to lots of more "expansive" turns in a
flexible embrace, and it is fun. At least before the novelty wears out.
To put it another way, the Margolises are talking about how they chose their
dishes to suit the occasion, perhaps about how they compose their meals. Well
that is great, but it is kind of a private matter, almost a little
embarrassing to discuss in public. The more institutional issue is not
ordering the meal; it is culinary, the art of preparing the dishes with the
right meats and spices, and the right procedure. There we arrive at the
issues of style, and at the need to have teachers and students understand the
technical distinctions, if they want to learn right. This is the public
issue, the issue of form and quality, rather than the social column.
So what would I call their tango? The answer: I don't know, they are not
telling me enough. In close quarters it could be mishmash (a much better word
than miloshowsal), though I rather suspect they are too experienced and
demanding of themselves for that. It could be kinda salon stance and style
all the way to tiny steps with the couple boxed in --- though at that point
it will look more like slow dancing. It could be that their so-called close
embrace becomes an apilado type embrace, and that they actually switch to an
apilado type vocabulary and rhythmic feel when dancing very close. They are
not telling me. A phrase like " ... and if there is room and if my partner
has good balance I may even do a close embrace molinete where our feet do not
go outside the area our bodies occupy (well, not by much) ... " suggests the
latter, except for the misleading use of the expression "close embrace" for
the solid (apilado) embrace of the milongueros. A "molinete" turn in place in
solid embrace is one of the hallmarks of the apilado style. The whole
gradualist tenor of their description, with implied degrees of closeness
correlating to units of dancing lebensraum per couple, suggests the opposite.
If I saw them dancing long enough I would be able to tell whether they have
an eclectic mishmash style; or, as Orlando Paiva has been credit here for
being very adept at, try to maintain the salon character as they get hemmed
in (for instance by doing small classical style ochos and back ochos even in
close quarters, or going for salon moves in one baldosa) --- the tendency if
they have not been trained at least a little bit in the milonguero art; or
more or less consciously throw switch # 3 as the lack of space conspires with
the music to almost demand the intimacy and musical cogency of the milonguero
style, if one knows it; or alternate the two approaches --- mixing without
mashing. I could do that quite easily because I still have the sight of my
two eyes.
Cheers to all,
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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:31:09 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Logorrhea
Jean-Pierre Jacquet:
>
I wish the moderator, if any, could put a lid on some of Astrid's postings.
This person seems to have yet to meet a clichi she didn't like.
<
Larry (Lorenzo?) Carroll (de los Angeles) disposed of one of the necessary
objections to the above. I would like to add another. Astrid shares with me
the fate of her point being occasionally missed by some because she cannot
resist being a little wicked now and again. Of course there is (always) the
possibility, also, that someone who does not get her ideas from the popular
media end up sounding "far-side" or (worse!) "not with it" to the untrained
ear. I find Astrid's postings delightful and thought provoking. And, of
course, I do not assume that she has co-opted any nonsense that she may
happen to report. (Now Astrid, pleeeeease do not blow on my face. I have lost
a chunk of it some weeks back, and Phantom of the Opera does not work in the
tango scene.)
Cheers to all,
__________________________________________________
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 25 Sep 2000 to 26 Sep 2000 (#2000-260)
**************************************************************