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Digest from 20 Sep 2000
to 21 Sep 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 03:00:55 -0400
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 20 Sep 2000 to 21 Sep 2000 (#2000-255)
There are 7 messages totalling 368 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Show Tango (2)
2. What period in history? (2)
3. Tango Shows (2)
4. Show Tango- What other dance?
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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:33:16 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Show Tango
Larry de LA wrote:
>There is, of course, absolutely nothing wrong with show tango. It's
>a beautiful art form, equal to ballet, flamenco, & all the other
>forms of show dancing. ... What's wrong is to MISuse it.
>This was most evident recently at the Sherman Oaks milonga ...
>Three-fourths of the way through Chicho & Lucia put on a terrific
>performance, dancing two tangos, a vals, & a milonga.
>Afterwards at least nine men were trying to do what they'd just seen
>- & trying to do it on a crowded dance floor. ... But what were
>Chicho & Lucia doing before & after the performances, on the same
>crowded dance floor? Much the same they'd done while performing, but
>much more compact, less dramatic, & completely safely within the
>traffic flow.
Larry reports an entirely regrettable situation, but one that is
completely undertandable. Less knowledgable dancers model their
dancing after what they see the experts doing. As was pointed out in
previous discussions, many dancers living outside of Buenos Aires have
no frame of reference in determining what is acceptable as social dance
and are blissfully unaware of their own lack of dance skills.
Many experts exacerbate the problem with their teaching methods. They
teach memorized figures and fantasia elements to people who are not
aspiring to be performance dancers and lack the preparation to execute
these steps safely on a social dance floor.
Some experts may explain that the patterns they are teaching are
exercises to teach skills, and the students should not memorize the
patterns and reproduce them for social dancing. But if the students
have relatively little exposure to social tango, a relatively small
vocabulary of steps, and have not developed the skills to alter the
step patterns, what are they able and likely to do with material they
just spent hours and their money learning?
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:51:29 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: What period in history?
Hello list.
I hope the moderators have found some help. It might be difficult because
it seems that most people are more adept at tango than computer technology.
I originally posted the below message on June 16, 2000. While there were
a couple of female friends who emailed me privately making me feel like
what I did was a good thing, I got two emails from guys who didn't really
think it was worthwhile.
One guy said that in Ballroom they do a mixer and
beginners don't like to get up there and try. I'm not sure what he was
talking about.
The other guy said that the quote described another place and time and so
(I guess) didn't have anything to do with us. OK, I know this is tough,
nobody likes it.
But here are the quotes again. So you can all kill me again for bringing
them up.
"In my club (late forties and fifties), one side of the dance floor
was called "the capital," the other side was called "the provinces."
The girls from the provinces were on one side, the girls from
the capital were on the other. We, the milongueros, were in
the centre of the floor. We observed the following ritual:
the beginner -- for example myself -- had to dance with girl
number 1, then girl number 2, and so on. The girls from the
provinces were ranked from 1 to 50, the girls from the capital
were ranked from 50 to 100. The girls from the capital were
prettier; they all went accompanied by their mothers. The girls
from the provinces went by themselves (they were somehow
unprotected). But I had to dance with the number 1 first.
The milongueros watched you and would either approve of
you or not. This was an unwritten law. This was the university:
I got my Ph.D. as milonguero."
-- Juan Carlos Copes
"To me, el baile represents life, love, death, hate. It makes my
hair stand on end. I am a tango dancer who was brought up
with the tango. It was the time when there were all the clubes
de barrio. I used to go on both Saturdays and Sundays.
On Thursdays and Fridays we used to go every single time
a baile was held -- not in the Centre, always in the clubs in
the barrios. A decent girl went to the club just to dance, and
she would dance with a ronoso (meanie) and with a groncho
(swarthy) and with a mummy's boy -- mummy's boys were
hardly ever good dancers. We would dance with everybody
-- with negros too. We were swept away by our love for
the tango, we just loved to go dancing. We didn't go out
looking for sex, none of the girls in our barra (gang) did; we
didn't care what the man looked like. It was a nice, beautiful,
pure group of girls, interested only in the tango."
-- Maria Nieves
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:41:55 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi-SMC Argentina- HQ <adm @SMCAR.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: What period in history?
Hello Deborah
I am not sure what do you want to know
Both persons, Juan Carlos Copes & Maria Nieves, are excellent dancers. =
They
made a famous dancing couple until they separate as dancing couple & as
everyday life couple.
Copes is now teaching with his daughter Johana. Johana is not the daugh=
ter
of Maria Nieves , by the way.
What period in history , are Copes & Nieves talking about ??
Middle 1940=B4s to middle 1950's
In 1955 there was a military coup in ARgentina, & tango went into the
shadow, the milongueros & milongueras were taken out of the ball rooms =
to
check at the police precincts if they have had previous entries as thie=
ves
/prostitutes. It was a form of pressing them not to go to the milongas.
Unfortunately they succeed, milongas almost disappeared, only a few pla=
ces
neighbourhood clubs) plaid discreetly some tango records. Milongueros =
hace
to dance with friends, relatives, sisters of their friends.
Not until the 1960=B4s , this proscription was removed. But that is ano=
ther
story...
Keep well
Alberto Gesualdi
adm @smcar.com.ar
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:58:01 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Show Tango
Larry "Carroll" de los Angeles (at a well known port) stated:
>
There is, of course, absolutely nothing wrong with show tango. It's a
beautiful art form, equal to ballet, flamenco, & all the other forms of show
dancing. Also, as Anton & others have pointed out, tango wouldn't be danced
outside Argentina at all if it weren't for all the people who were inspired
by show tango. And very few people inside Argentina would be dancing it. Nor
is it wrong to use show tango on the dance floor. What's wrong is to MISuse
it.
<
Larry is quite right on all scores: foremost, there being nothing "wrong"
with it, and a lot wrong with its misuse. Is macrame' right or wrong? Well,
people do and trade macrame', and that is about it. Fixing the question of
whether "show tango" is "right" or "wrong" to something that might have
meaningful Yes AND No answers leads us to matters of subjective taste. Do you
like to watch? (Remember Peter Sellers, a.k.a. Gardner, in "Being There"?) As
an habitual tango dancer, do you want to become proficient at a performance
LEVEL (note, "level", not "dance") just for the entertainment value, or the
challenge, or the exercise, or the technical by products? Do you have a
performance bug? Are you performing? Would you like to try to, some day? Do
you want to make a living of it? (Good luck.) There seems to be people who
have "religious" objections to "show tango". Too bad. They will be as
successful at stopping it as popes and emperors were at stopping tango itself
back then. Myself ... I cannot be bothered with such nonsense.
The first question is, what is "show tango" (by that or a like name)? Susana
Miller and like minded people have a simple answer: it is show tango if, and
only if, it is not milonguero style (apilado). (Well, in essence.) That is in
my view a profoundly ignorant answer in many ways, but they can be excused:
they were not the first to use poor taxonomic schemes, and dancers playing
scholar are legion, and usually not much better.
If we must use an expression like "show tango" (and I do not see much purpose
in doing so), the reasonable meaning to attribute to it is parallel to what
we would attribute to expressions such as "show salsa", "show swing", "show
hustle", "show folklore". I have already made a point without even trying.
How often do you hear these latter phrases? Not very often at all. Why?
Because salsa (the dance) is salsa, etc. And, by the way, tango is tango.
Nobody would expect a salsa exhibition to look either like ordinary social
dancing, or something divorced from it, some other dance altogether. The same
goes for swing (the Savoy experience not withstanding); etc. And by the way,
nobody should expect a tango exhibition to look like ordinary social dancing,
or something divorced from it, some other dance altogether.
I have been served from time to time exhibitions that were, at best, better
than average social dance. (Lame excuse: tango is improvisational; a good
"demo" should just be more of the same, of course well done. OK, some great
masters think that way, and do it that way. They do it VERY WELL. It is HARD
to believe they are improvising. In many cases they are not: the woman is
following, without prior knowledge, a choreographic scheme known to the man.
That is not real improvisation.) For me, the former sort of exhibition is
like a couple wanting to entertain me by courting in my presence as I watch.
That is, try to entertain me by making a public spectacle of a private
activity. I will just say that they succeeded only in mildly annoying me,
because I may be a voyeur, OK, I will let you guess, but I DO NOT need my
social dancing to be interrupted, and my floor taken over by some purported
performers, so that I can view something that is, or should be, at my
disposal by simply sitting out a few dances while these "performers" are
dancing socially.
Given the usual expectations, there is no need to create separate entities
for (i) a living social dance (sometimes also called an authentic dance), one
that belongs to the dancing public, not the stage or other specialists (as is
the case with classical ballet, or competition fox-trot); and (ii) a spiffed
up performance of that same dance. The dance is one, the situations, the
degree of "refinement", the skill of the dancers, etc, vary. Of course the
variation can be huge, still within the bounds of mere spiffing up; and
beyond that we have the introduction of elements (from other contexts, or
invented, with an authentic inspiration or out of whole cloth) further and
further removed from today's, or yesterday's, authentic "canons"; and still
further beyond, we have the fusion of standard stage disciplines with
authentic dances and, ultimately, the mere flavouring of stage disciplines
with authentic moves and/or styling. Those who believe they can cover this
world of possibilities, obviously available, and actually realized, in tango,
by creating a "show tango" category, even one a lot more reasonable than
Susana Miller's, are condemned to make too much of small notions, while
leaving vast expanses of flesh uncovered.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:22:31 -0700
From: Larry Duke <auto_d20 @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Shows
A spectre is haunting the world - the spectre of
"show" tango. All the "powers" of old "milonguero"
tango have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise
this spectre: Susana Miller and Tom Stermitz, Larry de
LA and Pichi, French Radicals and German police-spies.
Anybody in opposition has been decried as "not real
tango" by its opponents. They call "show" tango a
desease, a virus, a show!
Be careful, friends! Big brother is watching! And
counting how many ganchos you dare to try in his
presence.
Here is the secret of it all. All the so-called haters
of the "show" tango are very frustated non-talented
bunch, who tried and couldn't, and therefore are
envious of those who can. Anybody ever wondered why
Juan Carlos Copes is so much disliked by the viejo
milongueros of Buenos Aires? Think about it...
Many happy boleos to all,
El Duke.
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:46:04 -0700
From: William Alsup <walsup @EUROPA.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Shows
I disagree with what Larry Duke wrote. It seems to me the main thing the
"so-called haters of 'show' tango" are frustrated with are the people who
try to emulate fancy steps on the social floor without the skill necessary
to keep from disrupting the line of dance or bumping into others on a
regular basis.
My main "milonguero style" friends have tremendous respect for those
open-style dancers who dance musically and well, and who also dance in a
socially responsible way. But when one has to jerk one's partner out of the
way of some meteorite-like wannabe couple who have just flashed
uncontrollably across the dance floor, or when one has to constantly adjust
for the obliviously large backsteps (against the line of dance) of a leader
who's been dancing long enough to know better (this one isn't necessarily
the exclusive domain of "open-style" dancers), or when one has to wait too
long for someone to complete some elaborate stationary figure - well - that
can get old.
I would submit that many milonguero style dancers DO have talent (some of
them A LOT), and also have good judgement as to what works well on the
social floor (in addition to what maintains the best connection to the
follower). But so do many good show and open-style dancers. The frustration,
I believe, is felt towards those who have an *insatiable* appetite for steps
and drama beyond their own ability to tastefully and skillfully execute, and
those who *repeatedly* insist on doing their sequences at the expense of the
well-being of others on the dance floor.
Ultimately, I don't believe it's very useful to divide tango dancers into
open and close style camps, or even "show" vs. "social" camps. But I do
believe you can divide them along the lines of aware vs. unaware, and
considerate vs. inconsiderate. Those who choose to do fancy steps have a
slightly harder job when it comes to consideration and awareness of others
on the dance floor (as well as comfort for the follower). And in those
instances when the fancy-steppers don't succeed, or get in over their head,
or dance inappropriately, it seems to polarize rather than unite the camps.
Milongueros get frustrated, and "show" dancers take the heat.
Most of the "show" dancers I've studied with have taught concepts and
material that's appropriate for social dancing. For the most part, they have
not taught what they do on stage - and for that I'm grateful.
B.
Original Message Excerpt-----
From: Larry Duke <auto_d20 @YAHOO.COM>
Date: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 3:27 PM
>Here is the secret of it all. All the so-called haters
>of the "show" tango are very frustated non-talented
>bunch, who tried and couldn't, and therefore are
>envious of those who can.
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:11:36 +0900
From: astrid <astrid @RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Show Tango- What other dance?
Taking the risk of having everybody groan, let me ask you again the same
question that everybody seems to ignore when I ask it:
What is the difference between salon tango and tango milonguero, close
embrace salon tango, close embrace style...?
Yes, I am European, and yes, I am not catatonic, as Carlos pointed out so
kindly, and yes, I still don't get it, because in Europe we make no
difference for all I know.
About stage tango (supposed to be a yet another species by some) I used to
be able to tell the difference but somehow I do less and less.
The first time I watched Forever Tango I was absolutely fascinated. And
while I "like to watch" I also like to do it myself, and so the next evening
I went off to the "Argentine tango dance association" and registered as a
new student.
The next year, same season, Forever Tango came again to Tokyo.
I went to watch again but this time it was not the same. Rather than being
enraptured I watched and took mental notes- this was an enrosque, can do
that one; these are boleos, can do those too but not so high; this is a
gancho combination, have to work on that one; this is a levantada, wish we
would do that more often...
So, whatever you say...(not you, Carlos) the "sour grapes- theory" appeals
to me.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 20 Sep 2000 to 21 Sep 2000 (#2000-255)
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