The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 17 Sep 2000
to 18 Sep 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 03:00:01 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 17 Sep 2000 to 18 Sep 2000 (#2000-252)
There are 3 messages totalling 230 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. How was it like for women in the Golden Age. II (2)
2. How was it like for women in the Golden Years III
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 17:55:03 +0900
From: astrid <astrid @RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: How was it like for women in the Golden Age. II
>
> I have the impression that tango was as much, if not more, popular
> among the working class than the professional classes, (which may
> remain true today?).
No, it does not remain true today at all, at least not in the countries I
have seen.
Last year there was an article in the journal of the German academic
exchange service stating that tango has become a hobby typical for academics
with master's degree or higher.
Gianni D'Alia once wrote on the list he thinks tango is a typical hobby
among computer scientists. Once I visited his tango class in Germany and
found myself surrounded by medical doctors, male and female.
In Japan tango will cost you the same money like a month's worth of
groceries for 1-2 persons if you do it seriously and is usually attended by
exchange graduate students with well off parents, local business men, single
female company employees in their thirties to fourties (who are famous for
their savings and low expenses) and wives of well off husbands who fill
their afternoons with private tango lessons, violin lessons, flower
arrangement classes and their mornings with playing tennis. ( this is what
the elegant Japanese lady does) The partner of the owner of our tango school
will charm you with her delicate refined smile and make you think of silk
kimonos and ballerinas delicately drinking green tea from expensive cups.
Some of my tango friends in Germany teach at university, work for TV etc.
Now if you only attend milongas, in Germany, mind you, not Japan, tango will
not cost you more than going to a disco, but I don't think many working
class people would prefer a milonga.
The other kind you find in Berlin in the red salon and the like are the
aspiring existentialists who are attracted by the slightly decadent
atmosphere. You know, the black turtle neck sweater type, like the ones that
used to hang out with Sartre in Paris in those days.
>
> I also have the impression that tango was a singles scene,
Sergio, was their any such thing as a "singles scene", what with young girls
accompanied by their grandmothers and so on ?
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 15:14:50 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: How was it like for women in the Golden Years III
tom Stermitz wrote:
"I have the impression that tango was as much, if not more, popular
among the working class than the professional classes, (which may
remain true today?)."
"I also have the impression that tango was a singles scene, not a
family one. While there were (are) neighborhood clubs cruising the
milongas for dances was probably not what the middle class housewives
did (do)."
Astrid explained that in Europe and Japan Tangueros usually are
intellectuals, professors, physicists, existentialists looking for someth=
ing
exciting to do.
I agree with both of them. They are absolutely correct. Tango was introdu=
ced
to Europe at the beginning of the century, by 1912 it was very popular in
the aristocratic circles of Paris, London, Berlin, Rome and New York. It =
is
interesting to notice that the Prussian emperor Guillermo II (Wilhelm II)
forbid his officers to dance tango although it was danced in most parties=
in
Berlin and also in provincial areas. It is said that during the bad times=
of
WW1 he changed his mind and allowed tango to be danced again to improve t=
he
morale of his troops. Outside Argentina it continues to attract the rich,
the professionals, the intellectuals, the dancers that need a challenge
after many years of repetitive ballroom choreography.
In Argentina on the other hand it originated as a pariah in the suburbs, =
it
became socially acceptable after the war and slowly emerged as the nation=
al
music and dance. It is popular (working class), the typical Milonguero is
equated with sleeping during the day, going out at night, dancing, women,
horse races, billiard parlors, bars and caf=E9s. He will go to the single=
s
dance halls in downtown vs. the neighborhood club.
The life style of a working class family in Argentina during the "Golden
Years" was not very different than the one described in my note II.
Little by little the music, the lyrics, the dance integrated, in a greate=
r
or lesser form, part of the Argentine life of all social classes.
Buenos Aires is composed by more than 100 neighborhoods, each one has a
commercial center, one or more squares, several sport and social clubs. I=
t
is to those clubs where the married middle class couple went/go tango
dancing in company of family , friends, neighbors. Many of those clubs ar=
e
still functioning, like el "Sin Rumbo", "Sunderland", "El Circulo Urquiz=
a",
etc in my neighborhood of Villa Urquiza. Tango was/is also danced in most
private parties of all social classes and also in official receptions giv=
en
to foreign dignitaries. Clinton and Hillary had their chance during their
last visit but the one that turned to be a good dancer was Madeleine
Albright. Clinton in turn invited Robert Duval and his Argentinean wife t=
o
perform for the occasion of the visit of Carlos Menem to the White House.
Many of us when growing up were stirred away from tango by our parents
because they knew that tango could be addictive and you could end up "go=
ing
the wrong way of a milonguero". ??? But there might be nothing wrong with
being a milonguero after all. What do you think? :)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 03:01:52 +0200
From: Heribert Maier <hermaier @BORA.IUAV.IT>
Subject: Re: How was it like for women in the Golden Age. II
Dear Astrid,
astrid writes:
> Dear Heribert,
> now I already have three mails from you and all with the same message, one
> to me, one to me and the list and one to me from another email adress of
> yours !
I apologize for wasting your bandwidth and especially for the mail
written from another account. It never made it to the list, of course.
Sorry, for that, Astrid!
> Anyway, some questions: Why should I want to flame you ?
Oh, you shouldn't - as I've written. Because I said you are right! So
why should you?
> and what has trying
> to be authentic to do with women in the fifties and the feeling of
> milongueros ?
As you may have read, Astrid, I wrote "[Sorry - OT]" at the beginning
of the part that talks about being authentic. OT stands for "Off
topic".
Being authentic has been a subject on this list, recently. It is
intended to dance, behave, socialize (and feel) at milongas the same
way milongueros (I use this term globally for milongueras and
milongueros) did in former days like during the so called "Golden
Age".
I am a little surprised about your question as your last reply was
already quite off topic concerning the subject line. You are writing
about the fact that "tango has become a hobby typical for academics
with master's degree or higher". Has this much "to do with women in the
fifties and the feeling of milongueros ?"
(I append your email at the end.)
Anyway, I think it is fun and stands for the quality of an interesting
argument when the subject evolves as well. ;-)
So I very much appreciated the "OT"-emails, like Sergio's desciption
of the life of a middleclass couple.
> Were you referring to dance etiquette or the lack of such ?
>
I am referring not just to the specific dance etiquette but to the way
we dance and the way we feel while dancing as well. I believe that there
will always be a dance etiquette. But there will never be the same
ones in two different places or in two different epochs. Likewise
Tango never will be the same in two different epochs. So I think it is
somewhat vain to try to be authentic in the sense I explained above.
Bye,
Heribert.
Astrid's mail:
> >
> > I have the impression that tango was as much, if not more, popular
> > among the working class than the professional classes, (which may
> > remain true today?).
>
> No, it does not remain true today at all, at least not in the countries I
> have seen.
> Last year there was an article in the journal of the German academic
> exchange service stating that tango has become a hobby typical for academics
> with master's degree or higher.
> Gianni D'Alia once wrote on the list he thinks tango is a typical hobby
> among computer scientists. Once I visited his tango class in Germany and
> found myself surrounded by medical doctors, male and female.
> In Japan tango will cost you the same money like a month's worth of
> groceries for 1-2 persons if you do it seriously and is usually attended by
> exchange graduate students with well off parents, local business men, single
> female company employees in their thirties to fourties (who are famous for
> their savings and low expenses) and wives of well off husbands who fill
> their afternoons with private tango lessons, violin lessons, flower
> arrangement classes and their mornings with playing tennis. ( this is what
> the elegant Japanese lady does) The partner of the owner of our tango school
> will charm you with her delicate refined smile and make you think of silk
> kimonos and ballerinas delicately drinking green tea from expensive cups.
> Some of my tango friends in Germany teach at university, work for TV etc.
> Now if you only attend milongas, in Germany, mind you, not Japan, tango will
> not cost you more than going to a disco, but I don't think many working
> class people would prefer a milonga.
> The other kind you find in Berlin in the red salon and the like are the
> aspiring existentialists who are attracted by the slightly decadent
> atmosphere. You know, the black turtle neck sweater type, like the ones that
> used to hang out with Sartre in Paris in those days.
>
> >
> > I also have the impression that tango was a singles scene,
>
> Sergio, was their any such thing as a "singles scene", what with young girls
> accompanied by their grandmothers and so on ?
>
End of TANGO-L Digest - 17 Sep 2000 to 18 Sep 2000 (#2000-252)
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