The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 16 Sep 2000
to 17 Sep 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:00:16 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 16 Sep 2000 to 17 Sep 2000 (#2000-251)
There are 8 messages totalling 383 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Egos
2. Irresponsibility of Milonga Organizers/LONG!
3. Brass bands
4. Argentango n. 7
5. tango - los angeles vs san francisco
6. How was it like for women in the Golden Age. II (3)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:00:14 -0700
From: weismann <weismann @ALASKALIFE.NET>
Subject: Egos
"In the end, our society will be defined not only by what we create but by
what we refuse to destroy."
-John Sawhill-
The late John Sawhill was a conservationist. This quote could very well
apply to our spirit. Be kind to your fellow tangero/tangera.
Hoping you will find joy in your dance,
Marion
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:04:19 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Irresponsibility of Milonga Organizers/LONG!
Two years ago my boyfriend and I planned a two week trip to London and
Paris. Like Michael we did our homework looking up all the tango and swing
venues, and headed off with happy enthusiasm.
Our first night in London would be tango at El Once, which is in a hotel.
As we walked to the door Stephen noticed a couple of men wearing jeans and
cowboy boots. He used to dance country/western and said "I bet there is
country western dancing here too". In we went, and up to the second floor.
We walked into a large, very dark space. There was music, and it was not
tango, it was country. We stopped to watch for a moment, and I knew
something was not quite right, but it took me a moment longer than Steve to
realize that it was all men. It was the London Gay country western dance
night. As we stood there a nice man came up, looked at us and said "you
must be here for the tango, let me show you the way up." And off we went to
tango.
I must say he was friendlier than the people at El Once who never once spoke
to either of us all night. Most of the women glared at me, even though I
brought my own man! The only conversation we had was with a well known
dancer I knew from lindy classes who, it turns out, dances tango for a
break. The good news was that Gustavo Naviera was in town and danced twice
for the milonga. It was the most fabulous dancing I have ever seen.
The following Sunday we went to Paris. We had a list of those milongas too.
Our hostess is an ambassador, and she wanted to take us to dinner. We said
fine, but we are going to tango after, please come with us. She said she
and her husband would take us in her car, watch for a while, and then leave
us on our own.
So after dinner we headed off to an obscure location. Her driver had great
difficulty finding the address. The neighborhoods got more and more dismal,
but we know tango is often in a bad neighborhood, because that's where the
room is cheap. Finally we came to a really creepy looking street, narrow,
cobblestones, blank shuttered buildings looming up. The street was filled
with people in extreme leather outfits, spiked hair, lots of chains - not
your typical tango crowd.
Nevertheless, the car stopped, we got out, and I said to the doorman "we are
here for the tango". "Oh, not tonight, Madam" he said. "Tonight is gay and
lesbian pride night!" I was soooooo embarassed to have brought our
(non-dancing) friends on this wild goose chase!
The next day we told the butler what happened. To our surprise, he said HE
was studying tango, and would take our list to his teacher to get it
updated. That solved all our problems, as they provided a correct list of
venues, and after that we had fantastic dancing every night, including my
birthday on the Bateaux Parisienne, followed by tango in a Paris garrett -
but that's another story!
I guess nothing beats asking a native, but how can you count on making
contact with the right one?
cheers,
Melinda
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:25:01 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi-SMC Argentina- HQ <adm @SMCAR.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Brass bands
Astrid/Charles
I will try to explain a bit more "La cumparsita" meaning
First of all, Matos Rodriguez was not Argentinean but Uruguayan, Uruguay is
very close to ARgentina, being the Rio de la Plata basin a common river, &
also a common root , since argentinian + uruguayan are known as
"Rioplatenses" meaning their common river.
The best translation of Cumparsita i have found is "Small Carnival Parade".
It was not properly a brass band , but a group of university students from
Uruguay , that were parading , in a parade that is call "murga" or
"comparsa".
This parade cross a caffeteria in Uruguay while practicing their songs &
parade for the Carnival . The owner of the caffeteria, a man from italian
origin, said in his spanish with italian influence "There they came again ,
the cumparsita ".
He translate " comparsa" in spanish to "cumparsa" in dialect, and since it
was no so big, the diminutive round up the final (inmortal) name: Cumparsita
To sum up: cumparsita is not exactly a brass band, but a group that make
songs and parade , with some instruments, not specifically brass, but drums
, making a very particular noise .
There is still the custome of murga & comparsa (fortunately) in Uruguay.From
time to time , they cross the Rio de la Plata to visit Argentina, where
/also fortunately) the carnival parades are coming back little by little,
with local argentinean comparsas also.
If you like to hear some music of uruguayan murga & candombe, search in your
CD shops for music from uruguayan Jaime Roos & /or Egle Martin & /or Ruben
Rada , they are excellent.
There is also a recording from argentine tango singer Adriana Varela, very
recent, where she sings tango & also have murga songs arranged by Jaime
Roos.
Kind regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:43:38 +0200
From: Miguel Angel Garcia <studiogarcia @TIN.IT>
Subject: Argentango n. 7
Esta en red Argentango n. 7
======================
barrio, tango... pensaron en Buenos Aires?. Y si fuera un barrio de Caracas?
Pocas percantas letristas de tango. Se fijaron que hay poquisimas mujeres
autoras de letras de tango? Hay quien busca una explicacion...
Malena canta el tango como ninguna y en cada verso pone su corazsn. Al menos
asi decia Homero Manzi.
Una terrible musa inspiro decenas de tangos: se trata de la tuberculosis,
asesino implacable a principios de siglo.
Por que algunos nuevos tangueros del mundo bailan como si poco antes hubiera
fallecido su tia? Porque les dijeron la consabida idiotez: que el tango es
un pensamiento triste que se baila.
Una disquisicion su musica klezmer y tango, fotos de Buenos Aires y otras
cosas en:
http://www.team2it.net/tango/
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:37:53 -0700
From: Mark Wladika <markw @ASTROLOGY.COM>
Subject: Re: tango - los angeles vs san francisco
Oh Kathryn,
I suspect that this will stir up a heated debate, San Franciscans and
Angelinos can be fierce rivals in just about everything. So you probably
should only consider advice from more objective sources.
For those who don't live in either region, which city would you rather
travel to for a tango vacation?
For my two cents: You will find San Francisco Bay Area to have the largest
and healthiest Tango community in North America. You will find plenty of
good leaders in a gracious and friendly atmosphere. You'll also find
fantastic teaching, both homegrown and by a constant parade of visiting
Tango dignitaries. (Plus we have Dusty Baker, the Golden Gate Bridge, Lotfi
Mansouri and the Fleur de Lys) I believe that you'll be infinitely happier
moving to San Francisco.
Mark de San Francisco
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 20:31:42 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: How was it like for women in the Golden Age. II
Astrid wrote:
""The only thing I really miss about the Golden Age and
especially the ages before that in Argentina, is that
the men outnumbered the women, and all the men had to
compete with each other in becoming better dancers. In
those days a girl could become a milonguera and be paid
for dancing with the men that came to that milonga. It
was considered to be prestige to have your own milonguera."
Rudy Zelaya responded with a long note explaining the hard life of
Milongueras.
"The life of the "milonguitas" (girls as young as 14 but not older
than their early 20s) and "milongueras" (women between 25 and 40) was
a hard one. They were condemned by society, persecuted by law,
and exploited by the men in their lives. It was a life of shame,
violence, alcoholism, drugs (heroin in particular), and disease."
My impression is that both of them are talking about the same class of women
but during a different period.
It is well known that tango originated among the poorest, destitute,
inhabitants that dwelled around the city of Buenos Aires. The Milonguitas in
those days, 1860 to 1920 were for the most part as described by Rudy, not
different from the run away girls of nowadays.
During the Golden Age of Tango the situation was quite different.
There were some dancing halls, very few "en el bajo" Calle 25 de Mayo, not
far from the River where a man could buy for one dollar ten chips that
entitled him to ten dances with women, a very small subgroup, who made a
living from dancing and getting commissions from the drinks that their
patrons ordered.(Coperas).
The rest of the clubs were attended by the majority of women where the
sociology was as described in my prior note.
For most women life in the forties before "Women's Liberation" was as
follows: (Naturally there could be many exceptions)
Lived with her parents till she married. Occupation, student and later on
perhaps an easy job as a clerk in a store, a bank, an office. After marriage
she was dedicated to her family, very seldom worked outside the house, this
more frequently when she had a profession. A typical day: Husband gets up
and goes to the bakery to buy pastries for breakfast. She prepares breakfast
for the whole family and gets the children ready for school. The school
usually is at a walking distance, 3-4 blocks at the most. Husband goes to
work. She does house work and goes shopping to the market where she meets
her friends and neighbors to talk, some will come home with her to have a
few mates (tea) together.
Lunch preparation, as usually husband comes home at 1PM, to eat, talk, have
a nap before going back to work after a few mates together. Children come
back from school in the afternoon for coffee and milk.Home work is done.
Dinner is prepared. Husband comes home at about 8:30 PM. Have dinner and
take the children out to the square to play and have some ice cream. Talk to
friends and neighbors. Back home to finish the day and go to bed. Saturdays
and Sundays the family goes together to visit the grand parents where one
meets ants, uncles, cousins. Meals were usually followed by playing guitar
or piano, singing and dancing. Most other activities are at a walking
distance from the house, club, gym, piano lessons, etc. The only baby sitter
is the grand mother.
Vacations were taken once a year in the summer, usually lasted for four
weeks, the whole family plus some relatives and neighbors went together to
the sea or the mountains.
If the marriage was bad, the woman dedicated herself to her family, her
children some friends; the man shared sports with his male friends and
sometimes had a mistress but he never left his family and continued
supporting his house all his life.
Argentina, Ireland, and a few other countries were the only ones that had no
divorce.
Women were highly respected, men were indoctrinated as they grew up to think
about their own mothers and sisters when dealing with a lady. They were
greeted by removing the hat, were given a seat in public transportation,
doors were opened for them, a polite language was always used in their
presence.
The city was quiet and beautiful, there was no crime or drugs nor pollution,
the economy was excellent.
In many ways I still think that "Todo tiempo pasado fue mejor". Or perhaps
you think differently?
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 19:04:44 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: How was it like for women in the Golden Age. II
>Astrid wrote:
>
>""The only thing I really miss about the Golden Age and
>especially the ages before that in Argentina, is that
>the men outnumbered the women, and all the men had to
>compete with each other in becoming better dancers. In
>those days a girl could become a milonguera and be paid
>for dancing with the men that came to that milonga. It
>was considered to be prestige to have your own milonguera."
>
>Rudy Zelaya responded with a long note explaining the hard life of
>Milongueras.
>
>"The life of the "milonguitas" (girls as young as 14 but not older
>than their early 20s) and "milongueras" (women between 25 and 40) was
>a hard one. They were condemned by society, persecuted by law,
>and exploited by the men in their lives. It was a life of shame,
>violence, alcoholism, drugs (heroin in particular), and disease."
>
>My impression is that both of them are talking about the same class of women
>but during a different period.
>
>...
Sergio's description sounds like a very middle-class sort of lifestyle.
While the middle class of Buenos Aires did grow considerably
coincident with Tango's increasing popularity (and propriety), there
continued to be a large working class.
I have the impression that tango was as much, if not more, popular
among the working class than the professional classes, (which may
remain true today?).
I also have the impression that tango was a singles scene, not a
family one. While there were (are) neighborhood clubs cruising the
milongas for dances was probably not what the middle class housewives
did (do).
I'll let Sergio or Ruddy comment on what middle class husbands did (do).
--
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:19:07 +0900
From: astrid <astrid @RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: How was it like for women in the Golden Age. II
> I have the impression that tango was as much, if not more, popular
> among the working class than the professional classes, (which may
> remain true today?).
>
> I also have the impression that tango was a singles scene, not a
> family one. While there were (are) neighborhood clubs cruising the
> milongas for dances was probably not what the middle class housewives
> did (do).
>
> I'll let Sergio or Ruddy comment on what middle class husbands did (do).
>
>
In my modest experience I can only let you know what my Argentine friend
told me about his childhood:
His father, a high class military officer with German ancestors, married to
the daughter of the richest land owner in the whole area of her home town,
lived with his five children in Buenos Aires. It was the 1950ies. Every
Saturday night my friend would watch his parents, as they got dressed up for
the milonga. His father would spend a long time in front of the mirror
styling his hair meticulously. Then they would go to the milonga and take
their youngest son with them (who was my friend) because he was too small to
stay home. My friend would sit all evening at the side of the dance floor
watching his parents and the other people dance. When he grew up he used to
think that tango is for old folks until he made friends with Astor
Piazzolla...
Yes, Tom, you are getting your periods mixed up.
On the side:
When I tried to take my Parisian girlfriend along to a practica she refused
because she remembers the days when her parents left her at home to go
dancing tango and said it reminds her of "rich selfish people".
End of TANGO-L Digest - 16 Sep 2000 to 17 Sep 2000 (#2000-251)
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