The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 11 Sep 2000
to 12 Sep 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 11 Sep 2000 to 12 Sep 2000 (#2000-246)
There are 11 messages totalling 515 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. What`s up with L.A. Tango?
2. Mark Celaya's personal attack
3. Do you need Tango to Tango and why play Salsa (3)
4. BsAs HOTELS
5. Irresponsibility of Milonga Organizers
6. Forever Tango in Cleveland Nov 1 - 4 (4)
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 00:52:41 -0700
From: Mark Celaya <mark-joan-tango @JUNO.COM>
Subject: What`s up with L.A. Tango?
First, I would like to congratulate the organizers of the Denver Labor
Day Tango Weekend event, & express my regrets that I was unable to attend
as I had planned. More positive events such as these are definitely
needed today in our growing tango world.
What the tango world, however, does not need are the dreaded rotten
attitudes & the dreaded negative remarks such as those by Cherie Magnus.
According to Ms. Magnus, Los Angeles is "too shallow for the profound
tango". I find this amusing coming from someone who makes her living
peddling designer condoms; whose previous contributions to this list have
included: "which side of the woman`s dress should have the slit", &
"blonds are the most popular female dancers".
Yes, I guess you could say that Los Angeles is a very shallow town, so
shallow that the entire community has decided to have a fund raising
tango event for the granddaughter of Nito & Elba Garcia on November 22,
2000. ALL proceeds will go towards the rehabilitation of that little girl
who suffers from a viral infection that has left her legs paralized. This
is shallowness at its maximum utmost.
Ms. Magnus has correctly stated that (in L.A.) "there are many more
advanced women (dancers) than men". However, she is not one of them, by
far. Perhaps that is why she is rarely asked to dance; but I don`t
believe that is really the reason. I think it is more like: "who the hell
wants to dance with an attitude?'' Also, she has not been seen at any of
the major milongas here in over a year, so she couldn`t possibly know
about all the positive and wonderful things that are happening on the
L.A. Tango scene. There are many new faces ("new blood") dedicated to
improvement.
You know, there are two kinds of people in this world: those who build up
& those who tear down. Those who build up have the toughest job. They
must perservere when all the little things start going wrong, when all
the obstructions get in the way, when all the negative forces oppose
them, even one`s own mistates, & "Murfy`s Law", etc. Only their strong
desire to succeed & their faith in what they are doing can pull them
through. And just when they think they have reached a stable point that
they can build on towards their goal(s) - some breathing room, then
appears the second group, the dreaded tear-downers.
Their`s is an easy task. An assassin`s bullet in a split second can end
the aspirations of an idealist & his followers, one push of the detonator
button can destroy a magnificent edifice & its innocent inhabitants, a
derogatory sentence or even one demeaning word can damage the reputation
of the life-long work of a repected personality. We witnessed this
recently with the mindless attack by Linda Valentino against Orlando
Paiva`s 45 year dedication to Tango. The one consoling fact of life is
that these destroyers always lose, they always have & they always will,
provided that the builders & their followers never give up.
Now then, Ms. Magnus & everyone else for that matter possess their right
to pursue their happiness wherever they please, & I wish them all the
best in doing so. I also realise that I or any other promoter can not
possibly create a haven that will please everyone, & I do not expect them
to attend my events if they are unhappy. I can only try to present a
function that will be enjoyable for a general majority. I, as well as
some other promoters here in Los Angeles have achieved that.
For the past 4 years, our friday night milonga has averaged 120+
attendees on a weekly basis. Now, there are many milongas here in Los
Angeles which have fitered down that weekly figure; & that is fine with
me. We in L.A. are all enjoying the tango very much & I am ready for a
break so much so that I have decided to limit my involvement with public
functions & devote more time to the rest of my business which is growing
enormously. I have more time to now attend the other milongas, to travel
to other communities, & once again really enjoy the tango as I used to
many years ago (so it seems). It is time for others to build on what I &
those before me have laid out, have established. Yes, we are progressing
here in Los Angeles.
Now the point here is not to defend the abilities of the L.A. dancers;
maybe we are mediocre or even the worse. That doesn`t concern me. But we
are enjoying a wonderful growth here, & it serves no one`s purposes to
down-grade the positive efforts of imperfect people who are honestly as
well as tirelessly trying to keep alive for everyone as well as build up
that wonderful OBSESSION that we all share known as TANGO. You will only
hurt yourself in the long run.
The tango today is experiencing a huge growth all around the world. There
is literally tons of "new" (classic recordings) music soon to be released
for our enjoyment. A fantastic new video series called "The Endless
Tango" will soon make its appearance, focusing on all the tango
communities of the world. Let`s all work together to strengthen this
growth; let`s all enjoy it together. Support you local milongas, &
practice when you can. It can only help you as an individual in the long
run.
Best regards always,
Mark Celaya
Los Angeles
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 04:42:55 EDT
From: Cherie Magnus <MACFroggy @AOL.COM>
Subject: Mark Celaya's personal attack
Hi List,
Shame on you, Mark!
It's very interesting that Mark's posting is about his ability to sell
tickets and CD's. His tango "obsession" is a business.
My comments about L.A. tango must have really gotten to him for him
to dredge through the ancient Tango-L archives to find a few of my
years' old words to quote out of context.
It's also interesting that the only people to write angry
defensive posts about the state of L.A. tango are men,
two of which (Mark and Alexis) have, or had, weekly milongas,
and thus, financial interest, and Larry, who is the roommate
of Mark's partner, Joan.
Where are the women's voices? Have they all bailed? I wrote
from a woman's point of view. For guys, L.A. is a paradise.
No discussion.
I was born and raised in Los Angeles, and I feel I can offer
an opinion about what I observe here. But if Mark wants
to take it personally and get nasty, asi es la vida!
I'm off to BsAs tomorrow!
--Cherie
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:56:00 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Do you need Tango to Tango and why play Salsa
Original Message -----
From: "Don Lavin" <Dlpens @AOL.COM>
> My wife and I frequently find ourselves in a situation where beautiful
music
> is being played, such as a wedding, and I immediately realize that I can
> dance tango to a particular piece of music. We love the experience,
enjoy
> the dance and are able to spend more time on the dance floor together. Not
> being "purists" we love to dance tango to Piazzola and Hugo Diaz as well
as
> Sinatra and blues.
There is nothing wrong with experiencing a tango-like dance to non-tango
music. It can of course be argued that it is not tango because tango is by
definition a dance done by a man and a woman to the music of authentic tango
and with certain movements generally accepted as tango steps. However, there
is nothing at all wrong with listening to music and realizing that one can
dance tango steps to it. Personally, I would not waste much time in
pointless arguments about it with anybody ;-)
> In another posting it was demonstrated that certain people object to
hearing
> a salsa played at a milonga and the poster noted that it was like being
> served lemonade at a wine tasting. Most of the tango dancers I know are
> versatile and also dance other dances. Because their dancing is not
solely
> limited to tango the change of pace is most welcome. At most milongas in
the
> Chicago area we look forward to the occasional breaks from tango, vals and
> milonga music to swing, salsa etc. As a wine drinker who does attend wine
> tastings also, I liken this to cleansing my palette and consider it very
> refreshing.
Actually, there are some tango dancers who like other dancers, only know
their particular predilection. These people hate to hear other music played
at dances or other dances danced. I presume it is because they cannot
participate and feel that their time and event is being wasted. I feel a
little bit like that when they play too many "ballroom" dances during the
breaks in Miami for instance as I don't really dance the Hustle, Rhumba, Cha
Cha or Samba, particularly to the music and with the style of ballroom
dancing.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to dance and enjoy what one wants. The
problem is that sometimes people use derogatory terms to describe the dances
and culture they do not know or understand. I personally love to dance
Salsa, merengue, cha cha cha (not cha cha) and swing. I play them in my
milongas during the breaks and many people love to dance to these beats.
Salsa is not shallow or easy or somehow inferior to tango. If it were so
easy and "shallow", everybody would do it and you'd hear a lot less
complainig about it. The fact is that it takes a lot of skill and dedication
plus a good amount of time to learn to dance salsa. Just like tango, it is
not for everybody. It is OK if one cannot dance salsa (or whatever), it is
quite allright to want to dance and hear what one knows and enjoys, but I
wish that people who cannot dance salsa would quit with the unjustified put
downs and thinly veiled racist comments. It would be good to remember that
Tango has African roots too, and that South Americans including Argentinians
(regarless of what some might say) are Latin people and share a heritage
more in common with other Spanish speaking countries than with any
Anglocentric culture.
Tangazos to all,
Manuel
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:05:34 +0000
From: "~DANCE MORE TANGO~" <24tango @BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: BsAs HOTELS
Although I have posted many times about hotels in BA, I heartily agree with
Lois
and Cherie that a tango guest house is really the better way to go. For
many
years I stayed in hotels, always searching for the perfect one; no street
noise, convenience, amenities, location, etc. Then I discovered Maria
Teresas
guest house and it was the perfect answer. Not only did it provide all of
the
above but being in a residential neighborhood allowed me to actually live
among
the people, sharing their daily lives, no longer a tourist. And as Cherie
said, a lot
of wonderful things happen around a kitchen table.
Regards to the list,
norma greco
www.dancemoretango.com
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:21:54 +0900
From: astrid <astrid @RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Do you need Tango to Tango and why play Salsa
It is OK if one cannot dance salsa (or whatever), it is
> quite allright to want to dance and hear what one knows and enjoys, but I
> wish that people who cannot dance salsa would quit with the unjustified
put
> downs and thinly veiled racist comments. It would be good to remember that
> Tango has African roots too, and that South Americans including
Argentinians
> (regarless of what some might say) are Latin people and share a heritage
> more in common with other Spanish speaking countries than with any
> Anglocentric culture.
>
My dear Manuel,
you sound very politically correct but this is not at all what I was
thinking. I know very well where Salsa and Tango come from. (Would I spend
so much time on the Tango-L if I was too lazy to read anything else about
tango in eye-friendly book form ?)
The reason I do not like Salsa is not that I am racist or cannot dance it. I
can keep up with the basic step, but I'd rather do that bare foot or in
tennis shoes and in an altogether different club on a different day.. Doing
this in tango heels borders on the absurd as far as I am concerned. More
over it has an airobic quality to it and I need my energy for the tango.
I likened it to soda pop because it has something young and bubbly about it
and yes, compared to tango the mood sounds superficially happy to me. Since
I am a more "tragically inclined person" I prefer tango and Rachmaninov who
is the grandfather of Piazzola's music. I likened tango to wine, just like I
likened tango to heroin a year ago. "Maria Tango" was promoted in Germany as
"a musical where the tango enters the audience's blood like a slow
poison..." It causes ecstasy along with sorrow and is addictive.
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:14:27 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Do you need Tango to Tango and why play Salsa
"barefoot" or "tennis shoe" dance? you are obviously not talking about the
salsa that I and thousands (millions?) of other people in the words know.
Your use of such adjectives
as "bubbly", "soda pop" and "superficially happy" belies your contempt for
the genre. You might liken tango to wine, heroin or whatever blows your
skirt up. You can also liken salsa to "lemonade at a wine tasting party" and
claim you are not denigrating it, but it is patently obvious how you feel.
Before you go spouting your opinions about what salsa is and is not, you
should go to the salsa clubs and watch the people who go there to dance and
socialize. If you do not see a plethora of high heels, slinky dresses and
the equivalent in men's wear, you are not in a typical salsa club.
Original Message -----
From: "astrid" <astrid @RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
> The reason I do not like Salsa is not that I am racist or cannot dance it.
I
> can keep up with the basic step, but I'd rather do that bare foot or in
> tennis shoes and in an altogether different club on a different day..
Doing
> this in tango heels borders on the absurd as far as I am concerned
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:44:18 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango @FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: Irresponsibility of Milonga Organizers
Michael of Washington wrote, in part:
I returned last Wednesday night from an exciting group tour in Spain.
Whereas most group members read the promotional materials about the
cities on the itinerary, I searched the web to find out where the
milongas were. I find a web site and printed out the locations. (I didn't
write to Tango-A list requesting locations because it seemed rude to ask
others for information I could find out on my own.)
While my vacation wasn't ruined, it would have been nice to dance tango
in Spain. My dance shoes picked up thousands of frequent flyer miles
crossing the Atlantic twice. Next time, I'll go the Tango-A route and ask
for assistance. I certainly learned my lesson not to rely exclusively on
Internet postings.
________
Michael, you could have taken your search one step further by writing
directly to the organizer, contact person, webmaster or a teacher listed in
the web sites. I am planning to visit Italy next year and have already made
contact with several people who will give me the latest information just
prior to my travel about the current milongas. You'd be surprised how many
people can write to you in English! I wrote someone living in Italy in my
basic Spanish; he couldn't answer me in Spanish so he wrote me in English.
I am a subscriber to TangoItalia, so I receive email everyday on tango
events there. I'm getting practice in reading Italian.
Writing to Tango-A for information may not be the best avenue for obtaining
current information. Afterall, how many subscribers are there in Europe,
etc. to Tango-A? What is the likelihood that you will hear from someone
living in the city you will be visiting?
You will encounter the same problem in Buenos Aires. Internet information
may not be current. The milonga situation in Buenos Aires is a challenge to
keep up on. There are milongas opening and closing every day. Sometimes
they move the location or change the day. I have compiled a list of the
milongas in Buenos Aires, centro and provincias including the address, days
and times, telephone numbers and type of milonga. The list numbers more
than 100. And some of the milongas are held more than one night of the
week. There are two venues which are open seven days a week. I have been
to 25 of the current milongas, but go regularly to only 7 of them.
I remember several occasions last year when my former Argentine boyfriend
decided
we would go to a milonga where we hadn't been before. He relied on
B.A.Tango for the information. When we arrived at a certain milonga, the
doors were closed. Then we went to another one. The same thing happened.
So after an hour or more of traveling, we ended up going to a milonga we
went to regularly. The information published in the magazine may have been
correct when printed, but you can't always rely on it today because things
change. People talk in the milongas about the milongas they attend. This
is the best
way to know where to go. Often information by word of mouth is the most
reliable.
For this reason, I think it is good to have a contact where you are going.
Write someone that you are coming to their city and where you will be
staying. Get a local phone number of someone in the tango community so that
you can call for a ride or directions when you get there. It's nice to know
someone before you walk in and then can be introduced to others. The same
goes
for Buenos Aires.
Pichi
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:28:50 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Forever Tango in Cleveland Nov 1 - 4
Carlos Gavito and Marcella Duran
staring in "Forever Tango"
at Playhouse Square,
Wednesday thru Saturday, November 1 thru 4, 2000
tickets can be purchased by calling Tickets.com at 216/241-6000
most main floor tickets are $50 each
Plans for a tango workshop at are in the making at Belinda's Bar, but there
is nothing confirmed at this time.
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 01:31:26 0100
From: John Sullivan <tangofan @020.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Forever Tango in Cleveland Nov 1 - 4
Don't you folks in the U.S.A. ever get tired of "Forever Tango"? I know that
they have the newly crowned "world champions" and all that, but seriously... who
in the world has not seen it already? At least two times?
I mean, after all these years, and with as much variety as Tango offers in its
music and dancing styles, can't they come up with something new or different?
Don't they realize that they have become the "MacDonald's" of Tango shows?
Is that really the argentine way?
Cheers,
John Sullivan.
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:30:51 -0700
From: Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy.zelaya @ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: Forever Tango in Cleveland Nov 1 - 4
John,
just because you or some of the other tangueros and tangueras
has seen it "At least two times" doesn't mean that other people
have. It is a good thing that FT keep playing all over the USA.
It exposes people to an art form that is for the most part
completely alien to them and starts them (maybe) on the path to becoming
(with time, patience and a bit o'luck) tangueros and tangueras.
By the way, haven't you brits figured out who done-it in
Agatha Christie's "The Mousetrap" yet? It's been over 46 *years*
you know.... ;-)
Ta, ta
--
ruddy
>>Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 01:31:26 +0100
>>From: John Sullivan <tangofan @020.CO.UK>
>>Subject: Re: Forever Tango in Cleveland Nov 1 - 4
>>To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>>MIME-version: 1.0
>>Content-disposition: inline
>>X-Comment: mitvma.mit.edu: Mail was sent by 020-out.hosting.coconut.co.uk
>>
>>Don't you folks in the U.S.A. ever get tired of "Forever Tango"? I know that
>>they have the newly crowned "world champions" and all that, but seriously...
who
>>in the world has not seen it already? At least two times?
>>
>>I mean, after all these years, and with as much variety as Tango offers in its
>>music and dancing styles, can't they come up with something new or different?
>>Don't they realize that they have become the "MacDonald's" of Tango shows?
>>
>>Is that really the argentine way?
>>
>>Cheers,
>>John Sullivan.
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:42:02 -0600
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz @MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Re: Forever Tango in Cleveland Nov 1 - 4
Dear List,
Is Forever Tango travelling around the USA again?
I checked their website (www.forevertango.com) but
didn't see anything about a USA tour.
Would someone please post their tour info?
I've seen two of their shows and would like to do
so again, should they come to Denver.
Chau,
Dave
from Denver
Ruddy wrote, in response to John Sullivan:
> just because you or some of the other tangueros and tangueras
> has seen it "At least two times" doesn't mean that other people
> have. It is a good thing that FT keep playing all over the USA.
> It exposes people to an art form that is for the most part
> completely alien to them and starts them (maybe) on the path to becoming
> (with time, patience and a bit o'luck) tangueros and tangueras.
Well put.
I went to last year's show three times in the same week, partly
to figure out just how Julio did that one really neat figure!
Get tired of it?
Not yet!
End of TANGO-L Digest - 11 Sep 2000 to 12 Sep 2000 (#2000-246)
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