The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 10 Sep 2000
to 11 Sep 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 10 Sep 2000 to 11 Sep 2000 (#2000-245)
There are 13 messages totalling 645 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Perfection (3)
2. Venezia - Biennale 2001 - Tango
3. Do you need Tango to Tango and why play Salsa
4. Discouraged Tangueras (4)
5. Tango in Los Angeles (and Everywhere else for all I know)
6. Bs As Hotels (2)
7. TANGO-L Digest - 9 Sep 2000 to 10 Sep 2000 (#2000-244)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 02:56:44 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Perfection
I am far from perfect as a tango dancer. That used to bother me a lot.
Even after years of classes with more than 40 different teachers, lots
of practice, & dancing two or three times a week, I would still come
home sometimes so unhappy that I wanted to cry or kill someone or
both.
But last night I went to Alexis White's milonga in the Sherman Oaks
part of Los Angeles. It is currently my favorite tango dance place, with
a good mix of traditional & newer music; an eclectic group of people of
all ages, professions, & dance skill levels; & a great dance space &
surroundings. Halfway through the evening I realized I was having an
absolutely terrific time.
Part of that was due to the milonga. But even more it was due to a
change in me. I realized that I have become a terrific dancer. I have
quit thinking of thoughtless leaders as enemies; I now see them as
natural obstacles like the edge of the floor or a column in the middle
of the floor - in other words: routine challenges that do not bother me
even a little bit. Enough women have come to appreciate me that they
are not only willing but obviously happy to dance with me. I really
understand the music, not just intellectually, but at a deep,
instinctive level. And I have finally reached a skill level where all
the mechanics have become "natural."
I m still far from perfect, but I have finally reached the point where
my distance from perfection has become a comfort, a vast & fascinating
area to explore. Where each partner (including absolute beginners) has
become a teacher in how to dance. How to move, keep my balance, help
her keep hers, how to adjust our embrace in tiny ways to make it
better, exactly how to time a boleo so it feels right for her, how
exactly in a sacada to touch her foot with mine or her thigh with mine.
How to do all this not in a didactic, distanced way but deeply in all
the tiny sensuous experiences that are part of technique. And still
have enough attention to enjoy the touch of a velvet dress under my
hand, the warmth & pressure & scent of her body, enjoy the feeling of
communion with her, enjoy the music, & so much more. It is as if my
awareness has become, somehow, bigger, & time has expanded.
Interestingly, some people seem to get to this state a lot faster than
I did or maybe they reached it in some other area & brought it to
tango. I am thinking of one woman in particular who had never done
tango; I think her daughter dragged her to the milonga. After warning
me she had never danced tango, & accepting my assurance that I did not
care, she dove wholeheartedly into the experience. She was terrible but
did not let that bother her, & I did not let it bother ME. We both had
a wonderful time.
So it is that, at almost 3:00 o'clock in the morning, I sit at this
computer still feeling the afterglow of my "enlightenment" & - by
sharing it with others keep the warmth of it about me a little longer.
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 04:37:37 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Perfection
De Los Angeles writes:
>
So it is that, at almost 3:00 o'clock in the morning, I sit at this computer
still feeling the afterglow of my "enlightenment" & - by sharing it with
others keep the warmth of it about me a little longer.
<
I think Larry Carroll's enlightenment is great, and it is inspiring. We
differ on the types of things that make us want to "kill" somebody. I guess I
have been lucky. My joy was great on the first day, and has not yet
diminished (that being the greater danger); frustration mostly a negligible
memory; despair unknown. I danced with a few beginners today and I had a
ball. Anyway, I dig most of what he says. But as he talks about thoughtless
leaders I am assaulted by contradictions. Viejos milongueros, I am reliably
told, view them as enemies, and deal with them accordingly. (No, no breaking
of big toes.) After 50 years, they have not found their inner peace when it
comes to that. I do not think that one day I am going to be desensitized to
being rammed in a lyrical moment, or seeing my partner rammed and knowing I
should have avoided it. I think I will always lose the state of grace as a
result. Then I think. Yeah, if you go to the right place, it pretty much
doesn't happen, OK, you can take slight imperfections. But that is not always
possible. Viewing them as columns, or wall folds? There is this place, you
see. It has columns and walls folds, and so on. It would be unfair to name
it, it is just an example. There are plenty. It would be unfair to single
this one out. You could not mistake the wild leaders that are found there
most (but not all) the time for the columns, and so on. They move too fast.
The best imagination cannot abstract so much. The other day one of them
knocked a dancer down, literally floored him. And that was a good day, I
thought; much better than usual. I was not shoved onto the floor, see. So I
think we should try to find inner peace; and also campaign for good teaching
and training, so thoughtless leaders start thinking and realizing what they
are doing. And if one of them doesn't care to get the point, or doesn't try
to, or simply doesn't GET IT, we floor peons should have a little talk with
him and make him an offer he can't refuse.
Cheers,
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:16:49 +0200
From: Heribert Maier <hermaier @BORA.IUAV.IT>
Subject: Re: Venezia - Biennale 2001 - Tango
Hello Silke,
Silke Engesser writes:
> Hi tangofriends,
>
> has anybody informations about Tango in Venezia ( regular milongas) ?
>
There are no milongas in Venice itself (just in the (modern) mainland
part of the city). It is somewhat hard for a milonga to survive in a
place difficult to reach by car...
But there is a Tango-club (may be the oldest existing in Italy), the
Libertango-Venezia. In summer it organizes outdoor dancing in front of
the beautiful Salute church on the Canal Grande every Wednesday
evening, starting at 9.30 p.m.. Foreigners are very welcome!
AFAIK, there are not many milongas in Italy that are open during
summer.
> I am especially interested in tango events in june 2001 when the biennale
> is starting. Do you know about a tango festival about this time? I am
> hoping so as this year it took place at the end of may.
This year there has been a Tango Festival not in Venice but on the
Lido which is the island that divides the lagoon from the
Mediterranean Sea.
>
> Thank you for any information you can give me.
>
> Greetings
>
> Silke
>
For more information have a look at
http://www.provincia.venezia.it/libertango/ (to be updated soon)
or at Enrico's (Italian born American tanguero, and
TANGO-L-list-member, I suppose) excellent Tango-Italia
http://www.aaanetserv.com/tango/tangoitalia.html
or email me (in May if you come in June) or give me a call
(+39-041-5244161),
Heribert.
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 09:21:34 EDT
From: Don Lavin <Dlpens @AOL.COM>
Subject: Do you need Tango to Tango and why play Salsa
My wife and I frequently find ourselves in a situation where beautiful music
is being played, such as a wedding, and I immediately realize that I can
dance tango to a particular piece of music. We love the experience, enjoy
the dance and are able to spend more time on the dance floor together. Not
being "purists" we love to dance tango to Piazzola and Hugo Diaz as well as
Sinatra and blues.
As an aside, while attending one of Daniel Trenner's week long intensives in
Montreal, during one practice session he caused blues to be played to
demonstrate that tango can be danced to other music and this helped open up
the doors for our dancing tango in non-tango forums.
In another posting it was demonstrated that certain people object to hearing
a salsa played at a milonga and the poster noted that it was like being
served lemonade at a wine tasting. Most of the tango dancers I know are
versatile and also dance other dances. Because their dancing is not solely
limited to tango the change of pace is most welcome. At most milongas in the
Chicago area we look forward to the occasional breaks from tango, vals and
milonga music to swing, salsa etc. As a wine drinker who does attend wine
tastings also, I liken this to cleansing my palette and consider it very
refreshing.
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 23:35:52 +0900
From: astrid <astrid @RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Perfection
There have been some complaints about thoughtless leaders. Now I am not even
a leader but a "follower" but it has been my observation that bumping into
people is caused not so much by thoughtlessness but rather by the fact that
it is too much for a beginner to concentrate on remembering the steps,
leading the woman and listening to the music and observe other couples as
well .This sometimes exceeds his ability to concentrate on so many things at
once. Another thing is that a beginner does not know all the possible step
variations and can't alter his step pattern quickly enough to avoid a
collision.
Now if the leader is not a beginner, yes, maybe you should ask your partner
to use her stilettos as a weapon of defense.
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 10:00:03 -0500
From: Tom Ronquillo <tigrre @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Discouraged Tangueras
Would any of the older tangueras on the List care to offer advice and
encouragement to older (50 +) novice tangueras who are without regular
dance partners and are struggling to stay committed to tango? I am
particularly concerned about a woman in our local community.
I know there are many older tangueras without regular dance partners who
have (and still?) wrestle with the question of whether to continue their
involvement in tango. I also know that many of these women eventually
become very good dancers. The issue is how to remain motivated.
I am seeking the perspective and wisdom of women in this matter and I am
more interested in positive reflections rather than additional tales of woe.
El Tigre
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 13:33:01 -0700
From: Edward J Casati <edcasati @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Tango in Los Angeles (and Everywhere else for all I know)
(My first post ever to this newsgroup)
I can not say that I speak with great authority, since I have only been
dancing Tango for a couple of years. I can say this... the Tango in LA
does leave a lot to be desired. Not the enthusiasm, but the way that it
falls together. But maybe it is the same everywhere else. The way things
are here now, in many cases I have wanted to quit outright.
Not surprisingly, it is just a few 'bad apples' that ruin it for lots of
people.
In a typical milonga, there will always be a couple of people that
consider themselves 'advanced' dancers (mostly men). You can tell just by
looking at the way that they move that they are not the great dancers
that they fancy themselves to be. Yet they insist on making the most
outrageous, fancy moves possible. They drag their partners around in the
figure, and since they could not lead it properly, and the woman was
clueless as to what she was being asked to do, they stop and start to
'teach'. Well, to start with, they are taking up three or four times the
floor space that they are really entitled to on a crowded dance floor by
doing their 'show moves', and they have COMPLETE disregard for those
around them. Then their teaching is, as I think we all agree, completely
out of place. You want to teach, or practice moves over and over, go to a
'Practica', or find a side room. Use the Milonga for dancing please.
Then there are the women... have any of you guys danced with a woman
that, whenever you slow down even a little, insist on doing two or three
violent 'adornos', even if it is irrelevant to the music, the man did not
lead anything (or in some cases, tried to keep her still), and just won't
take a 'hint' such as a dissapointed look? Happens with lots of the women
here. Their legs whip though the air, not knowing who or what is around
them. No such thing as a 'low boleo' for them.
I've stayed in touch with several people that just 'gave up', since they
were not enjoying the whole way that things work in these parties. The
'Experts' take up all the room, won't dance with beginners, often have an
'attitude', etc.
My suggestions:
a) People MUST know the difference between a class, a 'practica' and a
'milonga', and how to behave in each case.
b) The person running the Milonga must be IN-CHARGE and involved. If he
sees someone 'teaching' in the middle of a dance floor, he (she) should
intervene. If people are standing around, chit-chatting in the middle of
the line of dance, intervene. If the moves are not appropriate for the
crowding of the floor, intervene, or make a general reminder to please
keep the moves simple due to the crowding of the floor. Of course the
announcement would be unnecessary if they knew what appropriate behavior
is in the first place. But in all milongas that I attend... nobody is in
charge of anything except selecting the music and collecting the money.
c) Instructors need to teach both social dancing and 'show' dancing, and
make very clear the difference between them. I had one pair of
instructors (I really miss them... they are back in Argentina right now)
that formed a circle of chairs about 9 feet in diameter, and then made
about 12 couples dance inside the circle at the same time. We then had to
'show off the woman's skills' while dancing in that cramped area. Best
lesson ever...
d) DJ's... please play more social Tango and less 'show' music! Don't
play a piece that requires lots of fancy choregraphed moves (such as a
latter Piazolla) when there is no room for that type of dancing at the
time.
e) All women that show up with a good partner should REQUIRE that their
man dance with a beginner at least one out of four dances. Share the
wealth! And at the same time, she should ask a beginner to dance, and
keep her moves (and expectations) in check.
Sadly, I seem to be picking up the bad habits myself, in order to
'fit-in'.
As I said, even though I don't know this to be true, from what I have
read in this newsletter, the above issues seem to be very common.
Your comments are very welcome. Flame-away if needed, it won't bother me
none.
Edward
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 11:42:28 -0400
From: rtara <rtara @MAINE.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: Discouraged Tangueras
on 9/10/00 11:00 AM, Tom Ronquillo at tigrre @EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
> Would any of the older tangueras on the List care to offer advice and
> encouragement to older (50 +) novice tangueras who are without regular
> dance partners and are struggling to stay committed to tango? I am
> particularly concerned about a woman in our local community.
>
> I know there are many older tangueras without regular dance partners who
> have (and still?) wrestle with the question of whether to continue their
> involvement in tango. I also know that many of these women eventually
> become very good dancers. The issue is how to remain motivated.
>
> I am seeking the perspective and wisdom of women in this matter and I am
> more interested in positive reflections rather than additional tales of woe.
>
> El Tigre
Dear Tom and all older women tango dancers,
Although not a novice, I have been dancing tango for 7-8 years without a
regular partner. In some ways this has made me a better dancer, because I
have learned to follow many different styles.
It can be difficult to go to a milonga and spend the entire evening waiting
for a dance or two. It's difficult to be in your 50's with a grown-up
woman's body and watch all the beautiful 20 and 30 year old dancers get the
lion's share of attention. But this was meant to be a positive post so,
here's some advice:
Go to classes and make friends with the men who are dancing at your level.
Tell them how much you enjoy dancing with them and ask them if they will
save you a dance at the next milonga. Do NOT ignore the beginners. Be
patient and appreciative of their efforts. believe it or not some of these
guys will develop into great dancers.
I remember about 5 years ago meeting a man in New York. Although he hadn't
had much experience with tango, I felt that he was going places with the
dance. Now he is one of my very favorite partners - anywhere.
When you go out to dance, put on some lipstick and pay attention to your
wardrobe. Dress appropriately for your age and body type but wear something
that makes you feel attractive. Notice what other women are wearing and use
that information to create a look that works for you.
Greet people as you enter the room. Introduce yourself to people and be as
outgoing as you can. SMILE. Make eye contact with men who look as if they
want to dance.
Place yourself strategically. Stand, don't sit. (this advice is for the US,
not Argentina where everyone sits most of the time) If possible, place
yourself in an area where people congregate as they leave or enter the dance
floor.
Watch the dancers to see who looks like he'd be a good match for you in his
dancing ability. Compliment his dancing and ask if he might be willing to
try a dance with you sometime.
Get better. That sounds like obvious advice but it is important that men
find you comfortable to dance with. One way to improve is to ask for
feedback.
Learn to relax. Don't worry about making a mistake. It is the man's job to
lead you and care for you on the dance floor. Let him do it. Listen to his
body and most of all, listen to the music.
If you find it hard to relax, try closing your eyes.
Back to music. Buy lots of tango music and listen to it ALL THE TIME. You
cannot be a really good follower unless you instinctively know the music.
BE POSTTIVE.
A few realities to remember:
Some men (and women) dance with only people they know
Some people are looking for a social interaction, not a dance interaction
and only dance with people they find attractive and available.
Some people only dance with professionals or very high level dancers.
Hope this helps.
Robin Tara
www.22tangoshoes.com
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 11:00:22 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay @FOXINTERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Bs As Hotels
> For my first trip to Argentina I want the conveniences of a hotel
> rather than renting a room from someone (as I will likely
> do on future
> trips).
I really believe that you should reconsider staying in a hotel,
especially on your first trip to Bs. As. When I went, I also thought
that that staying in a hotel might be better, but through the gracious
help of Florencia Taccetti I found the Tango Guest House. Here I met
people from The Netherlands, France, Germany, Brussels and the US, all
who had been to Bs.As. for tango numerous times. Not only were they a
tremendous source of information about classes, teachers, Bs. As. and
milongas, they allowed me to share cabs, subway and bus rides and let
me sit with them at the milongas. Sitting around the communal table
before and after going out was a special treat and another major
learning experience.
My trip to Bs.As would have been much, much less worthwhile if I had
not met them.
Lois Donnay
Minnesota
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:27:01 EDT
From: Cherie Magnus <MACFroggy @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Bs As Hotels
Hola List!
Larry writes:
<< > For my first trip to Argentina I want the conveniences of a hotel
> rather than renting a room from someone (as I will likely
> do on future
> trips).
And Lois reponds:
I really believe that you should reconsider staying in a hotel,
especially on your first trip to Bs. As. When I went, I also thought
that that staying in a hotel might be better, but through the gracious
help of Florencia Taccetti I found the Tango Guest House. Here I met
people from The Netherlands, France, Germany, Brussels and the US, all
who had been to Bs.As. for tango numerous times. Not only were they a
tremendous source of information about classes, teachers, Bs. As. and
milongas, they allowed me to share cabs, subway and bus rides and let
me sit with them at the milongas. Sitting around the communal table
before and after going out was a special treat and another major
learning experience.
My trip to Bs.As would have been much, much less worthwhile if I had
not met them. >>
I second Lois' response above, and would like to add that
I've stayed with Maria Teresa Lopez in Caballito for my
last 3 trips, and will again when I arrive next week. She
runs a similar tango guest house. She's a wonderful, warm,
accomodating tanguera herself, who is a fountain of the
latest BsAs tango info, plus a heck of a lot of fun. I've met
some terrific people around her kitchen table.
She has just recently (this weekend) put up a website--
www.mariatango.com--which is going to be super, but isn't finished yet.
--Cherie
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:32:40 EDT
From: Digest Polly McBride <ATANGO2 @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Discouraged Tangueras
Hello,
I am 50+ and have been in tango for over nine years. For the first five I
had a regular partner/life partner. When we parted, I dropped out for a few
months. Big mistake. I deprived my self in my grief over the breakup.
Am now very active in teaching, promoting, assisting with Portland's major
event Tango Fest in October, and having a wonderful time. I love the dance
too much to let discouragement, lack of a regular partner, or frustration to
interfere.
I enjoy dancing with beginners, assisting when asked, and sharing knowledge
through private lessons and workshops. Dancing with advanced dancers
provides the opportunity to test my skills and raise my awareness of areas to
improve. The dances that leave me longing for more, and feeling very special
in the arms of a skilled lead are very rewarding. Tango has provided a
creative outlet and wonderful social life in addition to the usual ups and
downs on the floor.
I attend Nora's tango week and classes given by visiting Masters. I am
working on becoming the best Follower I can be, and keeping myself motivated
by constantly learning.
Some nights I dance a few times and leave satisfied or not, depending on the
Leads. Other nights I dance many times with great to not so great partners,
and some nights I just take a time out. Each night is different, just as
each dance is, and there have been some wonderful ones. All of them keep my
interest and passion alive.
I listen to the music in the car and in my computer at work. I have written
one book and working on another.
I believe every tango community needs mature, experienced leads and follows
who raise the skill level of others by dancing/sharing with them. I love the
music, the history, the emotions and creativity I feel on the floor, being
able to contribute to the community and partnerships, the shoes/clothes, and
the mental and physical challenge.
Tango has become an integral part of my life, and is much more than a dance.
If your heart is in the dance right along with your feet, discouragement will
become just another 14 letter word. :-)
Polly McBride
Portland, Oregon
All Things Argentine Tango
http://members.aol.com/atango2/
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:29:23 -0500
From: Tom Ronquillo <tigrre @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Discouraged Tangueras
Listeros,
Excellent commentary on the topic thus far! Would anyone care to address
how you dealt with the feelings of being awkward, clumsy, uncoordinated
and memory deficient during tango?
I hate to see anyone leave tango feeling discouraged, no matter what their
skill level happens to be. I would rather see someone dancing with
less-than-perfect form than to see that person abandon tango. My personal
feeling is that everyone is capable of dancing a beautiful tango
eventually. Some individuals simply need a bit more time than others to
reach that point.
Thanks to everyone who responded. I plan to address a few of the remarks
posted in a while, especially Astrid's remedy for when my wife of 20 years
finally becomes bored with me at the 30 year mark. Note to
Shahrukh: Where is the fabled censorship on this list when we really need
it? Husbands everywhere are now doomed because of Astrid's words. :-)
El Tigre
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:44:52 EDT
From: Marilyn Chartrand <MCHARTRAND @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: TANGO-L Digest - 9 Sep 2000 to 10 Sep 2000 (#2000-244)
Larry - I highly recommend the Gran Hotel Hispano. I've stayed there my only
2 trips to BA, and have loved the place. It's a small, European-style hotel
on Ave. de Mayo near 9 de Julio, in the same block as the famous Cafe
Tortoni! The rooms are small, but very clean, the hotel staff quite courteous
and helpful. An indoor courtyard where the rooms face means that unless you
request a corner room, you'll have no external windows so that sleeping
during morning street noise is not an issue. You can request an
air-conditioned room, but may or may not need it. Continental breakfast is
included in the cost - a fellow tangeura and I split $52 for a double room.
We received a 10% discount for paying cash. Last spring, some friends of mine
from Denver were there and he had a heart attack during the night. The staff
was quite expedient in assuring he got adequate rapid medical care, and they
made our stay quite comfortable also. Their email is a moving target, but I
think you could communicate with them quite successfully via fax.
Hotel Gran Hispano (note; do not confuse with the nearby Gran Hotel Espana!)
Ave. de Mayo 861
(1084) Cap Fed.
Buenos Aires
Tel/Fax 345-2020 - 342-4431 / 3472 - 331-5266 (rotating lines)
The most recent email I have, but don't know if it's still correct, is:
hhispano @hotelnet.com.ar
Have a great trip!
Marilyn Chartrand
San Francisco
End of TANGO-L Digest - 10 Sep 2000 to 11 Sep 2000 (#2000-245)
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