The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 8 Sep 2000
to 9 Sep 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 03:00:40 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 8 Sep 2000 to 9 Sep 2000 (#2000-243)
There are 11 messages totalling 500 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Do you need tango to tango? (2)
2. Tango weekend in Denver (2)
3. Venezia - Biennale 2001 - Tango
4. Lisa Ellison's new tango salon in Dallas
5. What's up with L.A. Tango? (2)
6. Walk this way
7. Tango Weekends
8. What's up with LA tango
Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to Tango-A rather than to
Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To subscribe to Tango-A,
send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 16:47:51 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22LIGER_Michel=2C_CETE_M=E9diterr=2E/DIT=22?=
<michel.liger @EQUIPEMENT.GOUV.FR>
Subject: Re: Do you need tango to tango?
Hi list
Neal Goldman wrote:
>So my question is....do other people feel tango only to argentine tango
>music?
An interesting question : technically I think there are no problems doing
so. We are able to dance tango on 4/8 and 2/4 music, to use the same steps
on 2/4 milongas and even on 3/4 waltz.
The real question is: do we do it and do we like it ?
My personal answer is : I love dancing a viennese waltz with the argentine
tango steps. The tempo changes (one has Acceleration as a title !) are so
delightful to interpret in the tango way !
I have danced tango steps on boleros and relatively quick slows to escape
from the monotony of these rythms. I am not sure I would warm me up with
them but after dancing tangos for 1 or 2 hours I can't help dancing tango
steps on any music ! Strangely enough it is more difficult for me to dance
argentine tangos on many European tango music.
Clearly the emotion of the tango is not felt in other dances but the dance
and the connection can be enjoyed when waiting/longing for tangos.
Wish you try some non-tango tangos.
Michel
Michel Liger
Aix en Provence, France
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 17:11:48 -0600
From: Robert Dodier <RobertD @ATHENESOFT.COM>
Subject: Tango weekend in Denver
Hello all,
I would just like to say how wonderful was last weekend here
in Denver. Perhaps we were all still getting to know each
other on Friday, but by Saturday everyone was comfortable
and dancing beautifully together. I have to say that the
Saturday night milonga was most joyful and energetic I've
ever had the pleasure to experience. There were still
dozens of people there when we were shut down at 2:30 a.m.
Dancing outdoors at the park, on a floor the size of a
football field (or so it seemed), and dancing in the
mosh pit, er, living room, at Chris Perkins' house were
very different vibes but both very enjoyable, although by
the time I got to Chris' I was almost ready to fall over... :)
I would like to thank all the organizers and hosts of
the weekend's events, in particular Tom, Cammie, Chris,
and Kathy, and Marilyn of the stately and romantic
Mercury Cafe, and most of all I would like to thank all
the people who came from out of town to take part in
Denver's tango scene. It was our visitors who made all
the difference in the world, and I think I speak for
everyone in our community when I say we were very honored
by their presence. I can only hope that we can do it all
over again soon!
Best regards,
Robert Dodier
Boulder, CO
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 17:33:22 +0200
From: Silke Engesser <j43 @IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE>
Subject: Venezia - Biennale 2001 - Tango
Hi tangofriends,
has anybody informations about Tango in Venezia ( regular milongas) ?
I am especially interested in tango events in june 2001 when the biennale
is starting. Do you know about a tango festival about this time? I am
hoping so as this year it took place at the end of may.
Thank you for any information you can give me.
Greetings
Silke
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 10:43:12 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Lisa Ellison's new tango salon in Dallas
Lester Buck wrote:
>[Lisa Ellison, former Houston tanguera and recently moved to Dallas,
>has a terrific new tango studio and apartment under construction in
>Dallas. It was written up last week in the Dallas Morning News. Go,
>Lisa!]
>
>>http://dallasnews.com/entertainment/160920__TANGO02.html
Those of us in the small but intense Dallas tango community referenced
in the article are happy to have Lisa in Dallas and are looking
forward to dancing in the soon to be opened Salon Pavadita.
Unfortunately, the article references Lisa's telephone number at her
day job. To reach Lisa and Salon Pavadita you may call 214.288.5412
or email <pavadita @hotmail.com>.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 13:31:20 EDT
From: Cherie Magnus <MACFroggy @AOL.COM>
Subject: What's up with L.A. Tango?
Hi List,
I just received an email from one of the tango promoters here in L.A.
a propos of my Denver Magic posting to the List. His point was that
I should stay home and find the tango magic in my own backyard.
I told him that I wish I could. There would be nothing I'd like better
than to find good partners and great dancing without jetting around
the world as I do in my tangobum-dom: Denver, New York, Miami,
San Francisco, Amsterdam, and I leave next week for my 5th trip to BsAs.
In these cities, I'm invited to dance, and I dance with good dancers.
My personal take on the L.A. scene is that it's a salsa town: too shallow
for the profound tango, which takes so long to master and understand. The
scene here is The Industry, and it seems that few have time or interest
in learning something that is not to show off, but to enjoy privately
with one's partner.
Also, perhaps because there are many more advanced women
than men, it's my impression that when a woman finds a man
she enjoys dancing with, she gloms on to him for dear life, and
then neither of them dance with anyone else. In all my experience
in other places, I've never seen couples joined at the hip for the
entire milonga like is so prevalent here.
For example, in Denver last weekend, I couldn't help but notice
how there was a great mixing and sharing and socializing among
all the many dancers. There may have been cliques that I didn't
know about, but I didn't see any exclusive tables where people
only talked and danced with their tablemates to the exclusion
of everyone else like I see here.
I don't have any suggestions or remedies for this problem. I hope
someone comes up with one someday.
I just know that there's not much point in my wasting precious
time and money to go to a milonga and not dance.
It's not a lack of milongas we suffer here in L.A., but a lack of new blood
and dedication to improvement. Just my personal opinion.
Muy triste.
Cherie
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 13:40:21 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What's up with L.A. Tango?
Wow, what a bummer. To have to live with and deal with all those shallow
salsa people! Imagine, nothing but flash and trash! I've never been to LA
and now I'm not sure I ever want to. Could it be that a place that big with
so many diverse people cannot have any good dancers? Does the Southern Cali
scene inhibit the experience of profound tango? Also, it seems that there
are too many exclusive cliques there.
Come on guys, why don't you all practice a little more. The LA women seem to
be casting longing glances for tango partners all over the world ;-)
I've spoken with some guys from LA a few times but I never heard that the
tango conditions were so bad there. I've seen a bit of everything in my
tango travels in the US and Latin America. There are good and poor dancers
everywhere (some are just learning, I think they just need encouragement and
a little slack). There are also show-offs in any tango scene. I've noticed
that people also tend to congregate in small groups with friends. I guess
those could be considered cliques. I guess that LA could be worse than any
other place, too bad.
On the other hand, I would love to experience a milonga where all the women
were very skilled and advanced tango dancers. This would be a great plus! LA
might just be a good place for a guy to visit. I also enjoy Salsa (shallow?)
so that would be a plus as well ;-) Maybe this is a good time for the LA
tango people to organize an exchange a la Denver, and show the world what
the LA tango scene is all about. Any takers?
Manuel
> My personal take on the L.A. scene is that it's a salsa town: too shallow
> for the profound tango, which takes so long to master and understand. The
> scene here is The Industry, and it seems that few have time or interest
> in learning something that is not to show off, but to enjoy privately
> with one's partner.
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 16:19:22 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Walk this way
My postings on substantive issues (at least those) have been infamously long.
I wanted to surprise the brave souls who have had the patience to even try to
read them, by producing a shorter one. So I looked for the hardest subject I
could think of. I latched on the essence of the tango as a dance (that is,
body mouvement to music). The walk. And if we expand the idea of walk to
include pivots and swivels between and with ordinary steps, for all intents,
the dance itself.
Listening to, and watching, many teachers and masters, I was at first puzzled
by what seemed an incongruous mass of partially contradictory advice.
Eventually I came to realize that the good ones are all attempting to achieve
pretty much the same, with just minor variants. (A few teachers are trying to
pass on their defects to posterity, but one can learn a little bit even from
those and, honest, they are very few;) In describing what that common goal is
I came up with 16 points for forward stepping --- a somewhat arbitrary count,
because I was free to bundle together and torn asunder at will. Look: 16 =
(2^4) = (4^2) = (3+13). Suspicious. But you get the idea. It is not 3, and it
is not 100. Most but not all of the 16 points have a corresponding one for
back stepping, and/or another for side stepping.
Now is there a succinct way (nice word, uh?) to describe that common, elusive
(another one!) omega of walking? We know the alpha is the walking that we all
figured out at age one, give or take. Stray enough from that and you get some
version of Muppet tango. We don t want that. Let s stay with straight forward
stepping. Our back and side stepping derive from it. We didn t learn those at
age one.
You may have noticed that one s natural walk changes quite a bit when we slow
down below what can be reasonably considered a minimum walking speed, and get
in the area of dawdling. In particular the whole thing shifts towards the
mechanics of standing (e.g. stiff-legged, bipedal ...) since natural living
in the savannah does not call, generally speaking, for anthropoids to stand
unsupported on one foot, except possibly for religious purposes. Significant
requirements involving swiveling and pivoting on a single foot, particularly
at stultifyingly slow speeds, enter the human phenotypic menu extremely late
in the life of the species.
The basic Argentinean Tango pulse of roughly 60 steps per minute makes most
people naturally want to shuffle or clump, rather than walk with momentum,
grace and sprightliness. The whole matter of working on one s tango walk, and
the related matter of working on one s balance, take up most of dancers'
practice time, not to mention frustrations and inner dramas; invite
suspicious look in public places; etc, etc. Because to tango well is to walk
well. Yet the purpose of all of that work, of the almost 16 times 3 points,
of enduring the disapproving glances, and of all the bother and effort, is to
allow the tango nut to walk, at 60 steps per minute and less, as nearly as
possible the same way she or he does at normal walking speeds --- one hopes,
with momentum, grace and a flowing kind of sprightliness, if you know what I
mean --- while elegantly and seamlessly turning this way and that, grounded
on a surface that turns into the moral equivalent of ice.
Sorry that I came to such a disappointing and implausible conclusion, and
failed to produce a really short posting on top of it.
Cheers,
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 03:15:42 +0200
From: "Kohlhaas, Bernhard" <bernhard.kohlhaas @SAP.COM>
Subject: Re: Do you need tango to tango?
Neal,
in case you're interested: The song you are refering
to is called "Tango to Evora" and is on
Loreena McKennitt's CD "The Visit".
There is also another version of the song
by the Greek singer Haris Alexiou called
"To Tango Tis Nefelis". The latter one is the
version that I hear played at milongas every
once in a while. So while it is not an
Argentine tango, the song at least claims some
connection with tango.
But the question you are asking is actually a
different one, not related to this particular song.
Since you asked about personal feelings and attitudes
towards dancing tango to "non-tangos", I'd like
to share mine. I have only been learning to dance
Argentine tango for a few months and one of the things
that motivated me was my love for the tango music,
something I don't really have that strong for other
kinds of social dances.
I have found though, that even outside of the scope
of music traditionally played at milongas, some seem
to "suggest" themselves as music very danceable for
tango, such as the one you mentioned.
So I find pleasure in occasionally dancing tango
to music, that is not part of the traditional
repertoire of social dancing of Argentine tango and
this does include some pieces of Piazolla and
orchestras like Tubatango.
The answer to the question, whether it is "right" to
dance tango to this kind of music or not, is
mostly a personal one, but it is worth considering
in the light as to how much we "owe" to the
history and traditions in Argentine tango versus
how much new development and experimentation we
consider acceptable and even desirable.
And there is of course always the question of
practicability. E.g. I find that some of Piazolla's
very driven pieces like Libertango make me want to
translate that drive into movement, thus moving
along the line of dance faster than I usually would.
This of course does only work, if the dance floor
is not too crowded, a judgement that the
DJ has to make, before he starts a set of music
like that.
So in short I find nothing wrong with dancing
tango to this kind of music at a milonga as long
as it is done in moderation and the "traffic"
situation allows for it.
And I'd be very interested in other people's opinion
about the issue of tango as a developing music and
dance form, what is desireable and what isn't.
Bernhard
Mountain View, CA
Original Message-----
From: Neal Goldman [mailto:nealg1 @HOTMAIL.COM]
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 2:01 PM
To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Do you need tango to tango?
I had a question for the list.
I was at a recent milonga in NC in our small but growing tango community,
and I was commenting on the music choices. I mentioned that in Rochester NY
they used to play all traditional tango, milonga, and waltz, but once every
week they played a local favorite non tango which the community as a whole
loved to tango to. It was a lorena McKennit (?) song with a strong slow
pulsating and building rhythm. I mentioned that I enjoyed dancing to this
piece. Well the person I was talking to immediately said he would never
dance tango to non tango...in fact he then stated he refused to dance to
tubatango because that wasn't a tango ... tango doesn't have tuba, and that
even piazzola wasn't something he would dance to.
He said this politely but with conviction. He wasn't trying to say that I
shouldn't dance to non tango music, but rather that he didn't think it was
right and he wouldn't.
Well When metin came to give some workshops...before class started...he was
warming up dancing to a turkish song...I loved wathcing it. It seemed right
to me.
I like tango...and I like music... and sometimes it just feels right to
tango to something not written in argentina.
So my question is....do other people feel tango only to argentine tango
music?
Neal Goldman
Winston-Salem NC
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:57:20 -0400
From: Stella Robinson <stella_robinson @EMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango weekend in Denver
I am very curious about women who attended this fantastic event. Were any of
you able to achieve the BA level of tangasms. Also, what about multiple
tangasms? As we have learned from Pichi's postings, real milongueros do not
permit women to have multiple tangasms by not dancing with them for more
than one tanda during the whole night. Or maybe it is possible to achieve
multiple tangasms in a single tanda. Any thoughts?
Many warm wishes to all,
Stella.
FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com
Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 20:53:31 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay @FOXINTERNET.NET>
Subject: Tango Weekends
Denver tango!!
Yes, the Denver weekend was great fun! Kudos to Tom Stermitz, who
pulled everything together and to the Denver Tango Society and all the
Colorado tanguero/as who were such great hosts. All I can say is that
Tom and other local teachers must be doing something right, because I
was amazed at the high level of dancing, especially among some people
who have just started.
Yes, I think Minnesota would love to host something similar. I'm sure
we have plently of people here who would love to have some out-of-town
guests. The question is - would people really come to *Minnesnowta*?
What time of year is best? What events or teachers would be most
enticing? How important are non-tango events (like shopping at the
Mall of America)?
Lois Donnay, President
Tango Society of Minnesota
www.donnay.net/dance.htm
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 15:06:26 +0900
From: astrid <astrid @RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: What's up with LA tango
Original Message -----
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 3:40 AM
Subject: Re: What's up with L.A. Tango?
> I've spoken with some guys from LA a few times but I never heard that the
> tango conditions were so bad there. >
> On the other hand, I would love to experience a milonga where all the
women
> were very skilled and advanced tango dancers. This would be a great plus!
LA
> might just be a good place for a guy to visit. I also enjoy Salsa
(shallow?)
> so that would be a plus as well ;-) Maybe this is a good time for the LA
> tango people to organize an exchange a la Denver, and show the world what
> the LA tango scene is all about. Any takers?
Manuel, we all know what a good idea you thought that weekend in Denver was.
I am sure it was very helpful to speak to the guys in L.A. and they told you
all about how the women felt at the milongas.
Chiche Nunez was not surprised at all when I told him that in Tokyo the
level of the women is often higher than the men's. I deleted that part from
version II of "tango in Rome and elsewhere" because I was trying to be a
good girl. (I had already alienated a few "advanced" dancers who I ran into
again at Chiche's class when I told them that I did not feel comfortable in
the Green Salon and preferred to hang out with the Argentine immigrants in a
small tango bar.)
And besides, IMHO playing salsa between sets of tango equals serving rounds
of lemonade at a wine tasting party.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 8 Sep 2000 to 9 Sep 2000 (#2000-243)
************************************************************