The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 1 Sep 2000
to 2 Sep 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 03:00:28 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 1 Sep 2000 to 2 Sep 2000 (#2000-237)
There are 5 messages totalling 256 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Couples as Tango Partners: invitation of a couple's woman
2. Reply to Linda re: Orlando Paiva
3. Tango Influence
4. boleos
5. Request for volunteers
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 14:32:04 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22LIGER_Michel=2C_CETE_M=E9diterr=2E/DIT=22?=
<michel.liger @EQUIPEMENT.GOUV.FR>
Subject: Re: Couples as Tango Partners: invitation of a couple's woman
Greeting listees
>Diane Tober wrote:
> I have recently heard a thread of "wisdom" (??) from a tango teacher in my
> area, who believes that romantic couples can very rarely be good dance
> partners. He states that the tango often tears couples apart, and that
it
> is better to be dance partners with someone with whom you have no
romantic
> interest. Of course, I have seen many tango couples/partners who
disprove
> this theory, and I personally feel that this theory makes little--if
> any--sense. Does anyone else have ideas or experiences along this line?
Leonardo Tangueo wrote:
> The main disadvantage we've had was that in the beginning we danced almost
> entirely with each other. This did not allow us to correct our mistakes.
> However, eventually we recognized the value of dancing with others as
well.
I could not answer Diane question being not involved in a tango-romantic
relationship but I would like to ask Leonardo and others about the following
problem. I have a regular partner, without any romantic involvement. We take
lessons and dance much together but not exclusively. She is a good-looking
lady and dances very well.
My problem is that as soon as people in our community have noticed this new
partnership (I don't know which kind of relationship they assumed we were
involved in), men stopped to invite my partner when I was not there or when
I was dancing with another woman, except some more familiar faces who still
invite her. As a result, if I want her not waiting for hours, I have to
dance with her which in turn makes think that we don't want to dance with
other partners and this reinforces the process.
I live near the Mediterranean sea, which can possibly be considered as a
macho area where men respect other men's "property" (sorry ladies
!)...Unless they really want to get it/her ! In previous postings on dancing
in B-A, I read that it is even worse over there.
I presume that most contributors to this thread are tango teachers so they
certainly don't have this problem, but what about ordinary dancers belonging
to any sort of couple ? Does it depend on the country ?
Best wishes
Michel Liger
Aix en Provence, France
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 12:22:26 -0700
From: Al & Barbara <batango @SLIP.NET>
Subject: Reply to Linda re: Orlando Paiva
I'm going to try once more to reply to Linda's second posting about Orlando. I'd
tried before, immediately after hers, but for some reason it hasn't been
distributed. If that post was considered a flame, the bar must have been
lowered considerably.
However I am still very concerned about LInda's attack on Orlando Paiva's
reputation. No one who who has seen Orlando dance can deny that he is one of the
most beautiful, elegant and individual tango dancers alive, and those who know
him have found him to be a most gentle and generous human being who does not
deserve to be trashed.
It's been some years since we've visited Los Angeles, but the last time we
were there, and every time previously, we saw considerably more fantasia dancing
than is practiced in San Francisco, none of it in Orlando's style. The charge
that Orlando does not dance to the music is eminently puzzling. His dancing is
extremely slow, with many pauses, but never off beat. Isn't tango called, among
other things "La danza pausada" ? And for those who have tried it, it is much
harder to dance very slowly than faster--every imperfect detail becomes
glaringly obvious. It is astounding to watch the perfection of every one of
Orlando's movements..
Al and I have known and studied with Orlando Paiva since 1987. I don't
believe Linda has done either. Our other Bay Area Argentine maestros include
Fino Ribera, Roberto Grassi "El Pibe del Abasto", Nito and Elba, Lampazo, Pupi
Castello, Graciela Gonzales, Florencia Taccetti, Carlos Gavito and numerous
others, so our style has been influenced by many. We are entranced with
Orlando's technique, and practice it, but have never wanted to become clones of
him or anyone else, even if that were possible.
After our first visit to Buenos Aires, early in '87, when we were
dramatically impressed with the difference between show tango and social tango,
we searched for someone in the States who taught social tango and found (thanks
Jean and Charlie) Orlando in
LA. He gave workshops in the Bay Area very 2 months until he returned to Rosario
(1988-89?) . He didn't return to the States until a few years ago, and has come
only a few times for short periods, teaching in LA and here. On various visits
to LA we have seen very few of the dancers who studied with Orlando in the
pre-1889 period, so it may be that those practicing his style now are either
second generation or have known him only during the last few years. With such
limited exposure in the Northern Hemisphere it's hard to believe that one person
could have made such a strong impact on dancers, positive or negative, as Linda
suggests. No one influence has been that strong in the Bay Area, where we have a
multiplicity of local teachers and visiting maestros. If it is true that Orlando
has inspired so many in Southern California, it can only be in tribute to his
excellence, even if some of his students can't yet manage well the subtleties of
his technique, or are otherwise afflicted with the "show tango" syndrome which
IMO is tempting to actually the majority of newbies, without regard of their
training and often can only be cured by a trip to Buenos Aires.
In regards to Linda's specific criticisms, Mark's response is very
accurate. Please re-read it, or my previous posting, if you have any questions
about Orlando's technique or teaching.
>Just ask people who have been trained exclusively or primarily in >"estilo
Paiva" if they can easily dance with people who have not >been trained in that
style.
What about people trained exclusively in "milonguero" style? Also, some
people trained only in open salon style have trouble with exaggerated close
embrace.The key word here is "exclusively", not "estilo Paiva".
>Then ask the folks who dance this style and who have been to
>Buenos Aires if any of them (primarily the men, but also the women) >were able
to dance successfully there. I can give you the names of >numerous people ...
who were terribly disillusioned after going there >and finding that they a)
could not dance in a small or crowded space >..b) could not lead/follow people
not trained in the same style, c) >didn't know how to dance on the rhythm,
d)couldn't use the many >fancy steps they had spent years and thousands of
dollars
>learning and memorizing, and e) did not know how to improvise
This is the experience of the vast majority of tango visitors upon arriving in
Buenos Aires for the first time, despite the expertise of their teachers,
because of the difference in conditions between here and there and because it
takes literally years to learn to improvize even after one truly gets that tango
IS improvization. In Argentina, dancers tend to just walk the tango for however
long it takes them to
learn to improvize. Most Americans don't have that much patience. It seems that
there can only be a small handful of students of Orlando's with more than 3 or 4
years study, which is usually not enough to progress beyond that stage. And if
they have worked "exclusively" with him, that means only a few weeks a year,
maybe two months total in those 3 or 4 years, hardly enough to assimilate his,
or anyone's teaching. Also if one works only for short periods of time with a
maestro, there is the possiblity of unknowingly developing bad habits while
(s)he is gone.
> We CAN build a larger, better tango community if we dedicate >ourselves to
promoting tango as "un.baile popular"--a SOCIAL >dance that we dance for the
music, our partners and
>ourselves, while respecting the space of other couples around us-->NOT a.dance
where people go out on the social floor, do every
>complicated show pattern they know without regard to the other >people on the
floor and compete for applause.
Actually, speaking from an area that has had for some years a large and
quite advanced tango community, I would say that the best way to grow one is to
welcome all dancers, encourage the widest variety of teachers, visiting maestros
and styles, and encourage interchange between students and milongas, maintaining
a friendly civility to all. In such an atmosphere most aspiring exhibitionists
will sooner or later learn that they are not being applauded but politely and/or
humorously tolerated and will learn to dance more appropriately in a social
milieu. At least that's what has happened in San Francisco. It probably also
helps if many dancers have been to milongas in Buenos Aires! There are dozens of
Bay Area dancers who have been there many times over the last 14 years. But
basically it is good will and friendliness that grows a community.
Abrazos to all, Barbara
Original Message-----
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Date: Saturday, August 26, 2000 12:01 AM
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 25 Aug 2000 to 26 Aug 2000 (#2000-231)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 07:01:56 -0600
From: "Larson, Gretchen" <Gretchen.Larson @NORDSTROM.COM>
Subject: Tango Influence
Hi People,
Just got my new Nordstrom fall catalog and it features a short bio on the
first page of Danel and Maria Bastone of New York and a 10 page spread of
various tango spirited apparel, also a real bandoneon!(see if you can spot
it) If you'd like a copy try 1-800-695-8000 or your nearest Nordstrom store.
Long live la baila del amor!
gretchen
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 15:24:59 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: boleos
"If a woman is rotating, say,
clockwise on her own axis, and the man starts gravitating around her
counter-clockwise, and if in addition there is a properly toned frame
connecting the two, at some point something's gotta give, and of course it
will not be Mr. Macho Man. The woman's movement stops. If her body is
properly toned, and if the counteracting movement of the men's body is crisp
enough (but still relatively smooth in this school), there will be an amount
of elastic potential energy available. This "provokes" a rebote (rebound)
which initiates the boleo. It is then up to the woman to complete the
affair,
by channeling that energy in a beautiful way, shaping the whole movement,
and
putting up the balance of energy needed to complete the movement"
Carlos, for someone who knows nothing about boleos, you've manged to get in
a pretty accurate and clear description of the process. Good job!
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 16:18:41 -0700
From: J Lane <jlane @POP.NWNEXUS.COM>
Subject: Request for volunteers
About a year ago, Shahrukh posted a request for volunteers
to help administer the tango lists. There are now three
moderators (Shahrukh, Kat and me) sharing the work. Shahrukh
had done it for years by himself, so this has given him a
much-deserved break.
The job would be even easier if there were a few more people
involved.
The time involved is enough to notice, but not large. Most
of the work consists of reminding people that the Listserv
software used to distribute the tango lists does not handle
anything except 7-bit plain text very well. There's a small
amount of other correspondence.
Tango expertise is not required, but computer literacy is
necessary. Knowing the difference between 7-bit plain text,
MIME, and HTML is a good start.
Please send email to tango-l-request @mitvma.mit.edu if
you would be interested, or at least open to being
persuaded to help out.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 1 Sep 2000 to 2 Sep 2000 (#2000-237)
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