The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 1 Oct 2000
to 2 Oct 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 1 Oct 2000 to 2 Oct 2000 (#2000-266)
There are 8 messages totalling 409 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Nine West ladies street shoes, alternative
2. tango-milonga
3. learning to lead (3)
4. dancing to the music, leading, etc.
5. Bastoneros & milongas
6. Ithaca WWW page moved
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:59:07 CDT
From: Erica Sutton <ericaatwork @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Nine West ladies street shoes, alternative
Astrid and List -
I have two pairs of Robin's Malenas and I adore them! I wear them non-stop
- they are both comfortable and beautiful. But because they are so special,
they are also expensive. And a lady just starting out dancing may be more
inclined to try looking at a department store for a tango-ish shoe before
making the leap to a REAL TANGO SHOE.
My intention was to share my exuberance that it was possible to buy a street
shoe appearing to be made for tango. When I started dancing everything (AND
I MEAN EVERYTHING) was a lug-soled, rubber bottomed shoe with a block heel.
I still would not trade my Real Deal Tango shoes for a pair of Nine Wests!
But I am glad Nine West (and Prada!) are giving me options.
Erica
>From: astrid <astrid @RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
If you want a peekaboo shoe that is made especially for tango,
well made, great for dancing and cheaper than Prada, go for "Malena" by
Robin Tara. Best I ever had. (And I have been through trace on paper number
several times) www.22tangoshoes.com
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Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 11:42:58 -0400
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: tango-milonga
Dear Manuel,
I cannot agry with you more. Some time ago I read a book, " If you see a
Budda on the road, kill him!" An incident was described when police
arrested a man who spoke some language no-one could understand. The
officials decided him to be crazy and speaking "gibberish" since THEY,
the arresting authorities, did not understand him. After some time in a
lock up they found out that he did not speak a word of English, but
spoke Ukranian, was visiting his family abroad and got lost...
I wonder if "tango" is a lost state for those, I have seen dancing, but
for whom the language of music is not interpretable... especially
milonga, the dance so pleasant,but not easy unless you feel the rhythm,
and can move to it. Unfortunately many tango teachers continue teaching
steps before students are saturated with the music and its rhythm...
Some dancers, those who dance for years, but still cannot dance with
ease and enjoyment, insist that number of steps they've seen taught can
substitute moving with the music...
Eugenia
P.S. My Argentine friends told me that milonga is taught before tango in
Buenos Aires, to do exactly that: teach how to follow the rhythm.
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:28:11 -0700
From: Helene Lordosa <hlordosa @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: learning to lead
I'd be glad to know what people think is the best way
to learn to lead - and what the best way is to help
someone else learn to lead. A man in my local group
is struggling with leading. He says that no matter
what he tries, the follower doesn't do what he
intended. He says that accomplished followers take
leads he didn't even imagine he was giving - they keep
going when he thought he was stopping them, do ochos
when he thought he was pausing, and generally shoot
all over the floor. There is reason to believe from
these women's dancing with other partners that he is
at fault and they are actually following the leads he
is giving. Beginners, on the other hand, just walk to
the cross. He says it is particularly frustrating to
work on a figure in class because many of the newer
followers do not wait for the lead if they know what
the figure is. He says he pauses to check his
footwork or to establish that both of them are in
balance and the next thing he knows, they have moved
on without a lead. This does not help him learn to
lead, of course.
I have tried a couple of times to lead and I know that
it is hard - but I don't know what to say to give him
a clue. What advice can you give him? He knows he
has to understand the figures, and he knows he has to
practice leading, but what else? Was there any
defining moment in your experience that represented a
breakthrough in your leading?
Meanwhile, what can I do as a follower to help
beginning leaders? I am working hard to discipline
myself not to move until I feel the lead - so I won't
be like the followers my friend is having trouble
with. At the same time, as an inexperienced dancer
myself, I may not recognize the leads if they are
given weakly or poorly. How clear should the lead be
before I respond to it (presuming I can figure it
out)? What do I do if the beginning leader is
thrashing around but not giving a legitimate lead? I
see from my friend's problem that it's 'damned if they
do and damned if they' don't as far as the
inexperienced leader is concerned with people trying
to follow their less than perfect leads. What are my
options? What is the best thing to do?
Thanks for your advice,
Helene Lordosa
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Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 13:28:00 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: dancing to the music, leading, etc.
Interestingly enough, all these topics are tied together. Dancing to the
music is one of the principal ingredients to dancing tango (or milonga or
vals) well. The other part is of course, knowing how to dance tango!
Learning to move to the beat of the music is quite difficult to many people.
Executing tango steps to the beat of the music is even more difficult and
leading someone to do this while dancing yourself is even more difficult.
I've taken lessons in Bs As as well as in the USA from many teachers, all of
them well respected and recognized proffesionals. With 2 exceptions, they
all teach some type of movements in some kind of sequence. Out of all the
teachers I know, the only two who did not teach this way are Ernesto Carmona
and Tete ( I leave it to the cognoscenti to judge the efficacy of their
methods). Almost all the teachers I know teach people to move to the music
in some prescribed way. The majority of classes also involve walking to the
music and practicing walking technique (ochos, amages, etc.)
Teaching people to move to the music is generally very difficult.
particularly with those who do not hear the beat of the music. Do not make
the mistake of thinking that this is uncommon, it is not. I've heard from
many beginners that they do not hear the beat of tango even when playing Di
Sarli! How is one to teach this? Spending countless hours in the practice of
walking to the music sounds quite good in theory, but the vast majority of
people will not come back for even the second, let alone the 3rd thru
eternity of such classes. Although it is not "perfect" to do this, it is
much easier to teach people to perform some small sequence of steps and try
to do them as correctly as possible. They generally feel like they have
accomplished something and are encouraged to continue. It takes quite some
time for the average person to learn to move well in tango fashion, then it
takes them more time to learn to lead or follow these movements. It is only
after they have a modicum of skill with these things that they can be taught
to perform them with musicality and passion.
We have tried many different approaches to teach people to dance tango. No
single way is perfect for everyone and all methods yield about the same
results *over time*. The key to learning to dance tango is to put *time*
into it. All our best students dance tango as much as they can (they are
quite good too!). The more they dance and practice, the better they get.
Conversely, those who show up to class sporadically and also to milongas
will rarely become pleasurable dancers. This is particularly true for those
who schew the beginning level classes after only taking them for a
relatively short time. Before they have learned how to walk to the cross
successfully they only show up to advanced level classes and learn to do the
dreaded *parterns in the dance floor*. The teachers cannot be blamed if the
students refuse to do the assignments. It is interesting to see that out of
almost any studio or class there are always some good dancers as well as
poor ones. Those who really want to learn will do it. Those who think they
already know will never become what they could be.
Wonderful tangos to all,
Manuel
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 10:42:08 -0600
From: Paul Akmajian & Karen Reck <paulnkaren @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Bastoneros & milongas
In #2000-265 Melinda Bates wrote:
"In the old times in crowded milongas there used to be a kind of "bastonero"
a big guy with a big stick, in the middle of the dance floor. If someone
interrupted constantly the ronda he would grab the couple and make them to
dance in the middle...it was so embarrassing that almost everybody was
focused on dancing properly and not bothering others. Can you (imagine) if
we did this in the USA...the border of the dance floor will be always
empty!!!!"
Because of constant interruptions to the ronda or because it would be
considered an honor to to be showcased in the middle? ;-)
and "...milonga are only in BA. Milonga is more than the music and the
dancers, it's the whole
ritual of eye contact, cabeceos and more (subtleties) that are missed
overseas..."
Is a "tango party" like a "dance party"? I haven't attended a "dance party"
since I was about 14. "Milonga" or "tango social dance" seem perfectly apt.
But if we want to discuss appropriated (abused?) language & culture, I'm
sure we'll be able to dredge up many local/provincial tango/non-tango
examples. Here in New Mexico we have chile & please do not expect us to
believe that what passes for chile (or worse, "chili") elsewhere, is the
real thing. Don't bother citing the use of hot peppers in Indian or other
cuisines, or explaining that the word "chile" derived elsewhere, because we
know New Mexico chile is the one & only real thing. Will the folks in other
Argentine cities/towns or in Montevideo be surprised to learn that they have
no milongas there, or is there truly another word or phrase for such
gatherings outside of BsAs?
Now what might be really useful here would be a bastonero who could wield
that big stick a la my old ballet mistress, tapping & sternly adjusting the
legs of those violators of dance floor etiquette...
Enjoy you chile/chili! I'm off to our milonga!
Karen in Albuquerque
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 22:48:04 -0700
From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: learning to lead
Helene Lordosa asked what is the best way to help someone learn to lead.
I don't know about best but I recommend the following:
When something goes wrong, the leader should ask the women "What did you
feel me lead?" I suggest your friend is not aware what signals his
shoulders are sending to his partner. His brain is thinking one thing but
the body is doing something else. He's probably thinking so much about
his feet he's neglecting to think of his shoulders and frame. Tell him to
lead with his frame, not with his feet.
The man should also follow. My eyes opened after following. I realized I
was rushing my lead for ochos and not waiting for the woman to pivot
before going the opposite direction. My teacher always said "Wait for the
woman." (He still says it sometimes.) When a woman led and didn't wait
for me to pivot, I clearly understood what my teacher had been saying for
months.
As a follower, Helene, the best thing you can do is DON'T COMPENSATE.
Follow what the man is leading, not what you think he's leading. Even if
you know what he's leading, only follow the lead. You're not doing him
any favors by having him think his lead is good when it's not.
I practice this advice myself, even after dancing two years. The woman
decides how well I dance, not me. Therefore, it's to my advantage to get
all the feedback I can.
Lastly, when he does something right, give him a pat on the back and say
"Nice job." Complaints always come quickly. The praise for doing
something well rarely comes.
Hope this helps.
Michael
Washington, DC
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:07:45 +0900
From: astrid <astrid @RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: learning to lead
A man in my local group
> is struggling with leading. He says that no matter
> what he tries, the follower doesn't do what he
> intended. He says that accomplished followers take
> leads he didn't even imagine he was giving - they keep
> going when he thought he was stopping them, do ochos
> when he thought he was pausing, and generally shoot
> all over the floor. He says it is particularly frustrating to
> work on a figure in class because many of the newer
> followers do not wait for the lead if they know what
> the figure is. He says he pauses to check his
> footwork or to establish that both of them are in
> balance and the next thing he knows, they have moved
> on without a lead. This does not help him learn to
> lead, of course.
I am working hard to discipline
> myself not to move until I feel the lead - so I won't
> be like the followers my friend is having trouble
> with.
My first impulse was to say: "Find another teacher."
But this may not be of any help to you. So, the often missed basics:
Tango works because it is based on a "heart connection". What beginners
enact, however, is more like "two heads trying to control four legs."
The trick is: the legs do not move first, the legs do not really "do" the
steps, their movement is the natural result of the impulse given from the
chest of the man to the chest of the woman, but this only works if both are
in the "frame", if both have the right posture and know how to do "the walk"
(caminada).
To achieve this will take months, maybe a year or two, depending on you and
how often you practise.
Now don't feel discouraged, you can get moving as a couple pretty soon, it
is going to be a gradual spiraling process of improvement.
How is the impulse transmitted ?
The man walks with his chest erect and slightly out, his feet always remain
in contact with the ground, so when he moves forward the first thing the
woman feels is his chest coming towards her, not his feet. Now if the woman
has the right posture, she will not bend over backward to soften his impulse
but keep her upper body in exactly the same position, maintaining the same
distance to him, her arm not moving backward either. Now what happens ? Her
feet give, one at a time, executing the impulses she receives in her chest,
translating them into steps, their length varying with the strength of his
impulse.
Turns are initiated the same way, he turns his chest to the side, her chest
remains in front him, their feet follow to accomodate the turn.
At the same time, as an inexperienced dancer
> myself, I may not recognize the leads if they are
> given weakly or poorly. How clear should the lead be
> before I respond to it (presuming I can figure it
> out)?
All of the above applies. The lead is weak because his chest does not move
before or with his feet. You do not really feel the lead, because you move
your feet, and don't allow them to be moved from your chest.
If you are slow in feeling the impulse, a good dancer will always wait for
you until you have finished executing the movement before he initiates the
next step, no need to hurry, you should not have to catch up with him, this
would mean, he is dancing by himself, just like these women who dance by
themselves without waiting for the lead.
What do I do if the beginning leader is
> thrashing around but not giving a legitimate lead
Just let him thrash you around, move with him, and if he does not get it,
tell him that this is exactly what he is leading. ; )
If that does not help, call over the teacher for more explanation of "the
marca".
One more thing: if your teacher does not take the time to teach the students
how to walk, how to improve the posture, how to develop the flexibility in
your waist necessary for the dissociation of pelvis and the upper body, you
should consider looking for a better teacher.
I once left a teacher because he was teaching us too many steps and not
enough about the strength of the frame necessary to execute them.
The best of all teachers I know once had me spend the better part of a
private lesson lying on the floor (yes !), with my shoulders on the floor,
and my pelvis rolled over to the side, legs pulled in, and him kneeling over
me stretching the muscles in my waist. The miracle happened when he finally
allowed me to get up. He danced with me and our bodies moved in perfect
unison, me smoothly following whatever lead, moving like in a trance.
Any more questions ?
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 01:45:54 -0400
From: Matej Oresic <matej.oresic @CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Ithaca WWW page moved
Hello Tangueros,
my tango page has moved and renamed Ithaca Tangueros page. The new
address is:
http://www.rso.cornell.edu/tango/
Few direct links:
- Tango around the World
http://www.rso.cornell.edu/tango/tangoworld.html
- Tango in USA
http://www.rso.cornell.edu/tango/tangoUSA.html
- Tango Music
http://www.rso.cornell.edu/tango/tangomusic.html
I moved to Boston about month ago (while I can still use my "old"
e-mail, the new phone is 617-971-6077) and Rina will soon follow.
Unfortunately, due to the move and somewhat unpredictable schedule
following the move we had to cancel all workshops scheduled till the end
of the year 2000 ( still better than having to cancel in the last
minute...).
However, starting in January I am planning to start offering classes in
association with Boston Tango School.
Ira&Tessa (eyegee @lightlink.com, 607-272-6982) are continuing with our
regular classes in Ithaca (Rina is also offering few classes at this
time). They are also taking over the distribution of CDs for Classic
Tango (Mark Celaya) in New York State. While I am quite confident tango
in Ithaca will move on well, Bostonians might see more tango visitors
from Ithaca in the future ...
Best regards,
Matej
End of TANGO-L Digest - 1 Oct 2000 to 2 Oct 2000 (#2000-266)
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