The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 30 May 2000
to 31 May 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 30 May 2000 to 31 May 2000 (#2000-148)
There are 9 messages totalling 489 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Why Tango?
2. The Dreaded 8-Count Basic (5)
3. NA:E Metin & Tango a la Turca
4. 8CB
5. TANGO-L Digest - 27 May 2000 to 28 May 2000 (#2000-145)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 00:10:58 PDT
From: Robert Hink <rhink2 @NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Why Tango?
Hola Subscribers,
I am curious. Why do you tango? After all, Argentine tango is
perhaps the most technically difficult social dance at least of
those that I've undertaken. Why would you spend your time and
money to learn this challenging dance?
Since I am posing the question, I will offer my reason first.
Occasionally while dancing with a partner I've experienced a
rather amazing phenomenon. Some might call it peak performance.
Others might refer to it as an altered state of consciousness.
I just think of it as a magical moment. The sensation is that
the boundary between you and your partner melts away; you in
effect become one with your partner. The concept of leading and
following becomes irrelevant. Even the normal relationship between movem=
ent,
controlled by the dancers, and sound, controlled by
the musicians changes. It becomes hard to tell whether the music
is producing the movement or the other way around.
Those of you who have had this kind of experience will know exactly
what I mean; those of you who haven't will have to rely on my wholly
inadequate description.
For me this feeling is the Holy Grail of partner dancing. Every time
I step unto the dance floor I'm searching for this feeling. I find
it more often doing Argentine tango than any other dance I've tried.
Why do you tango?
Bob Hink
B.A. Tango =
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ail.netscape.com.
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:15:23 +0200
From: Gero Iwan <iwan @I5.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE>
Subject: Re: The Dreaded 8-Count Basic
Mark Celaya wrote:
> On the other hand, of the more than 30 tango instructors from Argentina
> (most from Buenos Aires) from whom I have taken lessons, every single one
> of them (100%) has taught what is now becoming to be known as the
> "dreaded 8-count basic". I also have videos of many other Argentine
> instructors (from whom I did not take lessons) teaching the 8CB.
I think that the "dreaded element" of the "dreaded 8-count basic"
is the first of the eight steps if it is danced backward.
So I would like to know how the mentioned Argentine instructors
handle this particular step.
BTW, my first teacher (in Germany, a German) prefered (and teached)
- dancing it on the spot (i.e. as a change of weight only)
- leaving it out completely (often replacing it by a pause/break/rest)
- starting with the side-step (the "second step") directly (sometimes
consuming double time then)
Best wishes
Gero Iwan
PS: Another aspect that may be "dreaded" and is conjoined with the
"Salida Acadimico" concerns obstruction of improvisation. But this
holds for every other fixed pattern or figure too. However, the 8CB
is a major basis/source for improvisation for a more advanced dancer.
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:25:56 EDT
From: Jack Karako <JKarako @AOL.COM>
Subject: NA:E Metin & Tango a la Turca
This coming weekend, June 3 & 4 "Tango a la Turca" in New York
On behalf of Baila Tango and Metin Yazir we would like to invite you to a great weekend in New York.
This year we have a wonderful guest performing couple:
Daniel Lapadula & Dolores De Amo
(please see our web site for more info)
www.BailaTango.com/alaturca.htm
And from Turkey:
Servet & Figen Moran
Aydogan & Sule Arkis
Ali Isikli
Solo Tango, Argentina's 24 hour tango tv channel will be taping the event.
Two days of workshops and a milonga with a Turkish flavor.
Some Turkish tangos, performances, belly dancing...
SCHEDULE OF EVENTS
Saturday June 3rd
Workshops
12:00 - 1:15 PM Salon Style : Tango Technique & Styling (Daniel & Dolores)
1:15 - 2:30 PM Salon Style : Vals (Daniel & Dolores)
2:45 - 4:00 PM Tango Fundamentals: Balance & Style (Metin)
4:00 - 5:15PM Turns (Metin)
9:00 - 10:00 Free lesson for those who have never danced tango before
Tango performances & Shows
10:00 PM - ...... "Tango a la Turca"
at Ballroom on Fifth , 319 5th Avenue ( @32nd St)
Belly dancing !!! and more...
Complimentary glass of wine
Sunday June 4th
12:00 - 1:15 PM Adornments & Musicallity (Metin)
1:15 - 2:30 PM Improvisation Concepts (Metin)
2:45 - 4:00 PM Milonga orillera (Daniel & Dolores)
4:00 - 5:15 PM Club Style Tango: next level (Daniel & Dolores)
Metin, Daniel & Dolores will also be avilable for privates.
Pricing:
Milonga (Tango Party) $20
Workshops
1 workshop $30
each additional $20
Complete package : Eight workshops + Party $150
Registration: call Jak at 212 314 5640 or email info @bailatango.com
www.BailaTango.com/alaturca.htm
========================================================
Here is some background on the history of tango in Turkey:
Tango music in Turkey dates back to the early 1900's. Seyyan Hanim, Secaattin Tanyerli, Celal Ince, Ibrahim Ozgur, Fehmi Ege, Necdet Koyuturk live in our memories as the soul of Turkish Tango.
In the early part of the century many people immigrated to Argenitne, at the same time bringing their culture along. That corresponds to the same period of the birth of tango. Is it possible that among these immigrants there were Turks of the Ottoman empire who consist of many culture including Greeks, Jews, Arabs, who are still called "Turcos" in Argentine ?
"Sevdim bir genc kadini" & "Papatya gibisin, beyaz ve ince" are still known and loved tangos.
Only in Turkey, the well known tango "La Cumparsita" is the first dance at all secular weddings.
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:25:10 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: The Dreaded 8-Count Basic
I enjoyed Dave Schmitz' humorous lunfardo dictionary. It injected
much needed levity into a Tango-L discussion that had become much too
serious.
Among other things Dave wrote:
>8CB/D8CB:
>1. a basic tango figure taught by USA instructors
>2. a figure unknown to milongueros
As Mark Celaya observed, however, not all U.S. instructors teach the
eight-count basic with dreaded back step. Furthermore, many Argentine
instructors who teach in Buenos Aires or tour do teach the 8CB.
Nearly all instructional videos I have reviewed either teach the 8CB
or use it as the basis for teaching other figures.
Numerous people have written to Tango-L about the disadvantages of the
8CB and its dreaded back step. Several criticisms have been offered.
The first criticism is the anti-social aspect of the backward step
against the line of dance. A substitute "step" consisting of a weight
shift is frequently offered as a solution to this problem.
The second criticism is that leaders who begin their learning with the
8CB may lock into it as a repeated pattern, which will limit their
ability to learn how to improvise. I have some sympathy with this
criticism, but my own dance experience suggests the danger is greatly
exaggerated.
The third criticism (which may be related to the first two) is that
milongueros do not utilize the 8CB--perhaps because it has the
anti-social backward step, it is too basic, or it is the invention of
stage dancers or teachers and does not exist in the social dance
vocabulary. We must infer the reasoning because milongueros can only
be trusted to communicate reliably with their dancing. :-)
Of course, the claim that the 8CB is NEVER used in milonguero-style
tango is not correct. As I recall from the 1994 Stanford tango week,
where Daniel Trenner and Rebecca Shulman introduced milonguero-style
tango based upon the style of Tete, they began by teaching Tete's
variation on the 8CB including a back step. At the time, Daniel had
already begun denying that there really was a basic step in tango.
More correctly, I believe the 8CB is of limited value in social
dancing as is any multi-step pattern which the dancer thinks must be
executed in its entirety. I would not recommend that someone attempt
to replicate Orlando Paiva's demonstration of dancing with only the
8CB on a crowded dance floor.
Maybe Dave should have written:
8CB/D8CB/Salida Basica:
A reputedly non-existent tango figure which nearly every teacher
relies upon as as a pedagogic device to some degree, but tells the
students not to rely upon as an element of their dancing.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:43:05 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: The Dreaded 8-Count Basic
> I enjoyed Dave Schmitz' humorous lunfardo dictionary. It injected
> much needed levity into a Tango-L discussion that had become much too
> serious.
>
> Among other things Dave wrote:
>
> >8CB/D8CB:
> >1. a basic tango figure taught by USA instructors
> >2. a figure unknown to milongueros
>
> As Mark Celaya observed, however, not all U.S. instructors teach the
> eight-count basic with dreaded back step. Furthermore, many Argentine
> instructors who teach in Buenos Aires or tour do teach the 8CB.
> Nearly all instructional videos I have reviewed either teach the 8CB
> or use it as the basis for teaching other figures.
>
> Numerous people have written to Tango-L about the disadvantages of the
> 8CB and its dreaded back step. Several criticisms have been offered.
Thanks to Mark & Steve for their comments.
To provoke discussion, I'm willing to play the lonely Don Quixote,
attacking molinetes.
Where I strongly disagree, is that it is really difficult for most
leaders to get rid of their dependence on the 8CB w/DBS once it has
become ingrained. For the followers this pattern has essentially no
benefit whatsoever.
I don't think it is sufficient to teach it and then tell people not to use it.
The issue for me is that, except stage choreography, the basic of
Tango is NOT, NOT, NOT a sequence of steps. Choosing to teach
beginners tango using the 8CB w/DBS imparts a structure to the dance
that is limiting and misleading given the improvisational nature of
Tango, especially outside of BsAs where we don't have crowded dance
floors nor the examples of the generation of the 40s.
A number of teachers have mostly or completely abandoned the 8CB
w/DBS as an instructional device for beginners, including those
influenced by Gustavo's "re-analysis" of tango, or by Daniel
Trenner's improvisational approach. (Others include, Luciana Valle,
Brigitta Winkler, Rebecca Shulman, Cacho Dante.)
As "the basic" of tango, Gustavo's circle declares the primacy of the
turn, and they even reinterpret the walk to the cross as a stretched
out turn (open, cross-back, open, cross-front), resulting in defining
ALL steps of the tango to be turning steps. Big G and Big F both
learned the 8CB long before developing their new approach, perhaps
only Big Ch came into the world without original sin.
Daniel who has also been strongly influenced by the Gustavo analysis,
proposes that tango is an improvised flow of the follower's steps
lead by the leader, therefore "the basic" of tango is a walk, a
cross and the change from crossed to parallel systems (a la Gustavo).
Daniel now has his students leading turns from day one, teaching the
cross a few sessions later.
I have heard the assertion that beginner leaders (analytical
tool-guys that they are) need a structure to go home with after the
first class. The concept of "tango as a flow", which is so obvious to
the followers, seems to make the leaders uncomfortable ("I just want
to know what to do!").
What I find truly weird is the situation where entire communities
have been so habituated to the 8CB w/DBS that most followers are
unable to step back with their left foot following the resolution and
most leaders stop dead in the water when they suddenly can't use
their dreaded back-step due to floor conditions.
There are plenty of dreaded back-steppers in BsAs (and plenty of
beginners), but the crowded conditions on the dance floors make it
difficult to complete short sequences any longer than
"side-to-the-cross", to the point where they are forced to break up
the sequence from their first day on the dance floor...not the case
in most tango communities in the US.
More significant is the fact that in Argentina it is so obvious from
the examples of many generations and from the culture of tango
itself, that tango is a dance built out of a led & followed,
rhythmic, IMPROVISED flow.
That is precisely the problem in the US.
- First, most students are taught the 8CB w/DBS on their first day.
- Second, the admonition to break up the pattern is hard to actually do.
- Third, the floors are so open that it is possible and very typical
to ingrain the choreography as a habitual pattern.
- Fourth, they don't have the examples from the 40s generation to
show that the basis of social tango is something other than this
pattern.
- Fifth most beginner classes instill this pattern in the women as
well as the men.
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:59:15 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: The Dreaded 8-Count Basic
Obviously Tom has a strong opinion about the eight-count basic, and I
agree with much of what he has written.
Tango is an improvisational dance, and reliance on an ingrained
pattern--any ingrained pattern--takes away from the ability to
improvise. For this reason, Susan and I have adopted what appears to
be the minority practice of teaching walking, turning and mordidas as
the basic elements of tango. We teach figures as applications of
these principles, and we encourage our students to find their own
variations.
All of us who teach must recognize, however, that the current majority
practice is to teach an 8CBw/DBS. Many of those who have declared
walking or turns as the basic elements of tango utilize or reference
the 8CB in their teaching. Susan and I introduce the 8CB as a step
pattern that can be developed from more basic elements, and we explain
that many other instructors will call it "the basic."
If there is a problem, I do not think the problem is with the step
pattern itself. The problem may be in the way that teachers teach the
pattern and the way students choose to learn tango. At a superficical
level, most teachers (and this includes many who teach close-embrace)
convey tango as a series of step patterns including the 8CB. Most
students attempt to memorize these figures rather than looking more
deeply into the dance itself.
Those who refuse to teach tango as a series of step patterns are
implicitly demanding that their students have a greater aptitude for
dancing tango improvisationally and to be more serious about learning
improvisation skills. I will submit that the student's aptitude and
seriousness greatly determines how much and what they learn. I know a
number of excellent tango dancers who dance improvisationally without
using 8CBw/DBS who started with the 8CBw/DBS.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:13:45 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: 8CB
In the past two years I have taught the tango, both, using the 8CB including
the number 1 back step, and for a short period of time, by not teaching the
8CB, to see what works best for my area and my students.
I dance the improvisational way, by just walking into any movement I wish.
But I know all the roads of tango I can travel, a new student doesn't. To
teach someone new to tango this method is only more confusing. Yes, you are
giving a dancer free rain to do any thing they want at any time, but a new
student doesn't know what do with it, or where to go with it. A new student
frequently gets lost on the dance floor, or the leaders mind might go blank
of what can I do next, so knowing the 8 CB is always a good way to get back
on track. Teach a person the 8CB and they are on the dance floor learning,
having fun and enjoying themselves, building their self confidence. Teach
improvisation to someone new to tango and they feel they have to wait till
they are taught more of what they can do in the dance, so they end up just
sitting and watching until they feel they know more. While I teach the 8CB
today, I make them learn this step in 3 separate sections. the beginning
(steps 1 &2), the Middle, (steps 3, 4 & 5) and the resolution, (steps 6, 7 &
8). I make them learn to take this step apart and put it together again in
any different sequential order. Teaching the 8CB in three sections also gives
the student time to learn to pause at the end of each section. When I teach
all 8 steps at once, the student never pauses, but continues from one step to
the next.
While teaching the 8CB, I'm also teaching walking, and while they're walking,
I point out the when the man steps forward with his left foot, that is step 6
of the 8CB and he can come out of the walk whenever he wishes. I would also
teach that after step 5, he needs not go into the resolution, but he can
start walking forward again, and on either side of the women. I have heard
many instructors say," You have to know what the rules are before you can
break them."
It's only recently that I have really appreciate the 8CB. I look at the 8CB
like a ball room dancer would look at the box step. The box step is in every
ballroom dance, but by changing the timing it changes its appearance.
I only wish I could keep the student from looking down at their feet. It's
like their feet won't move to the correct place unless their eyes are
watching. Any one have any comment on that subject.
I am
Tim Pogros (TimmyTango)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:47:28 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22LIGER_Michel=2C_CETE_M=E9diterr=2E/DIT=22?=
<michel.liger @EQUIPEMENT.GOUV.FR>
Subject: Re: TANGO-L Digest - 27 May 2000 to 28 May 2000 (#2000-145)
PSERGIO wrote
"This is transcription of the book with the permition of the author,
and I think it has some intresting points.
INTRODUCTION:
In this book ...
...
...Time is an important factor when we study: people discover more when in a
relaxed atmosphere with the information being introduced at high speed and
in multiple forms.
by Mauricio Castro"
This seems to be quite interesting, but what are the title, the editor and
the way to order it ?
Michel
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:42:10 GMT
From: Ricardo Tanturi <tanturi999 @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Dreaded 8-Count Basic
>From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
>Subject: Re: The Dreaded 8-Count Basic
>
> More correctly, I believe the 8CB is of limited value in social
> dancing as is any multi-step pattern which the dancer thinks must be
> executed in its entirety. I would not recommend that someone attempt
> to replicate Orlando Paiva's demonstration of dancing with only the
> 8CB on a crowded dance floor.
At a workshop on "salon tango" i.e. - dancing tango in a crowded
salon, Metin Yazir said:
"Here is a challenge. Suppose you are in the middle of a crowd.
So execute the 8-count basic in place."
It works! You just take small steps and you and your partner turn
around each other.
I think you could, in fact, dance a whole dance, in a crowd, with
only this step, following line of dance and avoiding collisions,
just by adjusting the size and direction of your steps. (And of
course adjusting the timing of your steps to follow the music and
aid in navigation.)
Might be a good exercise. I'll try to remember to try it the next
time I dance.
Ricardo
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 30 May 2000 to 31 May 2000 (#2000-148)
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