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Digest from 24 May 2000
to 25 May 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 03:00:03 -0400
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 24 May 2000 to 25 May 2000 (#2000-142)
There are 8 messages totalling 528 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. tango styles--Milonguero (3)
2. Milonguero Style (2)
3. Hello!
4. style
5. Lumfardo Dictionary
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:38:10 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: tango styles--Milonguero
Anyone who claims that a particular embrace or dance style is THE
best one is either ignorant, a fool, or an intellectual
imperialist. Every choice we make that gains us something also
loses us something. Every advantage is at the cost of a
disadvantage.
So it is with the milonguero style. Janis, Tom, & others have
pointed out some of the tradeoffs in different variations of this
style. I m sure the experienced dancers on TANGO-L can come up
with others.
One claim often made for it is that it s easier for a woman to
learn it. I think this is untrue. I believe it is easier for a
woman to GET STARTED. But my experience with the women who ve
danced with me & choose a very close embrace suggest that this
embrace takes just as much effort to MASTER as any other
technique. There is no easy, miraculous path to mastery in any
field.
Another point about this discussion. People like to simplify every
area of their lives. One way to do this by dividing an area up
into distinct parts & labeling those parts. The easiest division,
of course, is into two parts: black/white, us/them, salon/milonguero.
But in the real world it s rare for this to be very accurate.
Usually there are shades of gray. Even more usually there are all
the colors of the rainbow.
Instead, I think it s almost as intellectually economical & a lot
more accurate to divide the world into continua, & talk about what
happens as you move along the continua. For instance: in a very
close embrace a woman often will drape her arm over a man s
shoulder & around his neck. This has certain pluses. For instance,
it s easier to play with his hair if she really likes him or if
she DISlikes him & knows he hates having his hair mussed!
This amount of closeness also has certain minuses. For instance,
her arm is at a mechanical disadvantage, so it is harder to keep
from putting all her arm & some of her body weight on his
shoulders - & this can get painful surprisingly quick even if he
is a big strong man.
Then as she moves further away from him (though still close) her
hand tends to slide from around his neck till it rests on his
shoulder. Again this has certain pluses & minuses. And so on.
Finally, there s a puzzle maybe someone can solve for me. At what
point on the continuum of closeness/distance does milonguero
become salon? If a woman s body is only touching so that her bosom
is only 99% compressed, is it still milonguero?
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
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Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:09:13 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Milonguero Style
Milonguero Style, an interesting discussion brought up by Larry de Los
Angeles.
At the end he says:
"Finally, there s a puzzle maybe someone can solve for me. At what
point on the continuum of closeness/distance does milonguero
become salon? If a woman s body is only touching so that her bosom
is only 99% compressed, is it still milonguero?"
The Milonguero Style was developed so that people could dance in very
crowded places such as most Salons in Buenos Aires.
It is a style that has a different choreography from that of Tango Salon.
The foot work is different, the use of syncopation is different, the ochos
and turns are different, it is danced in close position, there is no need to
come apart at any time, you remain together, in a close embrace all the
time, from the beginning to the end of the tango, milonga or valz.
The choreography is simplified somewhat, the steps could be repetitive, but
people do not seem to mind; they are wrapped in an intense feeling of the
music and dance.
Tango Salon on the other hand, has different choreography, different foot
work which may require adjusting the embrace somewhat. Closer for lineal
figures, a little more apart for turns and circular figures. The
choreography is more spectacular. there is an infinite variety of
possibilities, the intense feeling could, and should also be present.
It is my impression that those that learn Milonguero first, never learn any
other style. They dance Milonguero all their lives; they never learn how to
follow or lead Tango Salon. You go to a place where people dance milonguero,
try to dance Salon and no woman dances with you again.
Those that learn the more difficult Salon Style first, acquire a solid base
and are able to dance any style later on.
In summary what determines Milonguero or Salon is not the close embrace,
both have it; they are totally different in many other aspects.
This is my opinion, according to my experience, others my have a different
idea.
Saludos.
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:38:20 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: tango styles--Milonguero
>One claim often made for it is that it s easier for a woman to
>learn it. I think this is untrue. I believe it is easier for a
>woman to GET STARTED. But my experience with the women who ve
>danced with me & choose a very close embrace suggest that this
>embrace takes just as much effort to MASTER as any other
>technique. There is no easy, miraculous path to mastery in any
>field.
I disagree strongly with your approach. In contrast, just consider
how much effort it requires human beings to MASTER a hug and move
gracefully to the music.
Perhaps it is simply our different experiences. In Colorado most
people go back and forth between the close and open salon tango,
recently settling more and more into the close-embrace. In Los
Angeles almost everybody dances in an open salon style structured on
the 8CB w/DBS.
I claim that close-embrace (aka "milonguero style") is much easier to
learn for both men and women, based on my observations of people
learning both open and close styles of Tango here in Colorado.
The technique required to get to intermediate level tango is more
demanding in open embrace than in close-embrace. In particular, the
turn, which isn't very important at all in close-embrace is an
essential structural element of open embrace tango. To do the turn
smoothly requires very good balance and connection.
Open embrace tango is almost universally taught as a series of steps.
This approach makes it very easy for leaders to become lost in their
heads and for followers to become nit-picked to death about their
ochos. Intuition, musicality, heart & connection which are so
important for good tango dancing are not rewarded until you have been
dancing for quite a while. It takes an analytical mind to figure out
the basic structure of the dance, which results in a
self-perpetuating distortion.
The essential aspect of close-embrace tango is the EMBRACE and the
MERGING with your partner. What few steps you need in order to get
around the dance floor aren't hard to pick up. This gets back to the
idea of MASTERING a hug and moving gracefully to the music.
Fundamental elements include walking, rhythm/acceleration, the cross
and ochos. You can go right-brain on these elements in a month or
two, at which point you are already working primarily on the aspects
of tango we all agree are the most important: heart-and-soul,
connection to your partner (emotional and physical), musicality,
seduction, ...
In other words, close-embrace lets you get to the essential aspects
of tango in a shorter time, while the technique and vocabulary of
open embrace tango distracts you from them.
>Finally, there s a puzzle maybe someone can solve for me. At what
>point on the continuum of closeness/distance does milonguero
>become salon? If a woman s body is only touching so that her bosom
>is only 99% compressed, is it still milonguero?
Your 99% bosom squash misses the point (so to speak). Close embrace
is really more like a 150% merging of the hearts, which has nothing
to do with the bosom, other than it feels good to hold her/him so
close.
For me the distinction is structural not the amount of distance.
- Milonguero style is a merging into each other.
- Open embrace tango is a balance between two separate axes.
(Yes you can merge over space in open embrace, and yes you should
support your own weight in milonguero.)
You can do most of the same material in either style, with certain
technical adjustments, but it isn't really a continuum.
In the Mingo Pugliese version of open embrace (for example), the
balance of axes is supported by a firm, round frame, while in
Gustavo/Fabian/Chicho's analysis it is distilled into just the
balance maintained across space by both partners. This "nuevo tango"
frees you up to use a rich selection of vocabulary that would be more
difficult with a rigid embrace.
Milonguero can be asymmetric (with the follower nestled around the
leader's right breast), but I don't like this version. Most
practitioners of this style that I have seen open up to do regular
salon turns.
Milonguero Style may be taught with a lean (ARGGGGH!) or with a light
merging where each partner maintains responsibility for their own
weight. The merging version opens up a richer selection of
vocabulary, not to mention wrapping velvet-soft strings around my
heart.
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 09:54:03 -0700
From: Ricardo Melo <lollvs @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Hello!
Hello!
My name's Ricardo de Souza Melo and this is my first
e-mail in this list.
I'm composer and bandoneonist from Brasil and I'm
seeking my second major in music in the USA at the
Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville.
I'd like to hear from you, guys!
See you
Ricardo
__________________________________________________
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Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:07:17 -0600
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz @MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Re: tango styles--Milonguero
Larry wrote:
> >But my experience with the women who ve
> >danced with me & choose a very close embrace suggest that this
> >embrace takes just as much effort to MASTER as any other
> >technique. There is no easy, miraculous path to mastery in any
> >field.
I have to agree with Larry.
In a way.
Since dancing in close-embrace is different from dancing
in open-embrace, quite different skills are needed.
If one wishes to master both of these, then one needs to
master two sets of skills which are somewhat overlapping
and yet somewhat distinct.
On the other hand, I have to agree with Tom in that I have
seen students get so focused on the "steps" or "figures"
taught in open-embrace that they do not learn the
fundamentals.
Fundamentals are of the utmost importance.
In that sense, starting with close-embrace may be a
better choice, so as to not distract the student.
However, this pedagogical argument depends on the particular
teacher and on the particular student.
Tom wrote:
> I disagree strongly with your approach. In contrast, just consider
> how much effort it requires human beings to MASTER a hug and move
> gracefully to the music.
Why haven't visiting teachers given sessions on hugging?
Gavito did demonstrate close-embrace by starting with a hug.
> I claim that close-embrace (aka "milonguero style") is much easier to
> learn for both men and women, based on my observations of people
> learning both open and close styles of Tango here in Colorado.
Tom, although I am inclined to agree with you, the use
of observations here is not scientific, but rather
anecdotal.
It is like comparing old apples and new oranges.
You and I and other veterans of the Colorado scene all started
with open-embrace, with emphasis on leading & following,
using exercises still in use today even in "close-embrace"
classes.
I would not compare our slow learning curve with
that of recent students, as recent students have many
opportunities to learn which we did not have.
Recent students have a thriving scene in which
to learn tango, so their enthusiasm is greater, their
struggles less, they have opportunities to dance with
experienced dancers, etc.
Plus, I would not compare teachers either, regardless
of preference as to close or open, as their clientele
varies so much, from dedicated students to the "walk-in"
crowd.
Dedicated students will gladly work on walking
drills for an hour or more, while the walk-in crowd
want instant gratification, and by gum, if they don't
learn at least one figure "right now!", they won't
come back. Certainly, the dedicated students, most of
whom currently take classes which emphasize close-embrace,
will learn faster.
That doesn't make for a fair comparison, as many of
the open-embrace students (at this time) are walk-in
students, few of whom go to practicas or milongas.
They "dilute" the open-embrace classes, so those
who are dedicated students are slowed down in their
learning.
As far as I have heard of classes in Colorado, the
instructors who emphasize close-embrace either do not
have walk-ins or discourage them.
To do a fair comparison, a scientific one, we would need
two "equal" instructors, each with "equal" randomly
selected students, who are not allowed to see/practice/
dance tango anywhere but in their test classes.
Anyone want to try this experiment and report back?
Anyone need a PhD research topic?
> The technique required to get to intermediate level tango is more
> demanding in open embrace than in close-embrace. In particular, the
> turn, which isn't very important at all in close-embrace is an
> essential structural element of open embrace tango. To do the turn
> smoothly requires very good balance and connection.
I use the turn quite a lot in close-embrace. It has
the practical use of seeing where I am in relation to
the crowd. Plus, it's a lot of fun. And a nice
challenge.
And, I like to practice the techniques for close-embrace
giros which El Indio & Mariana Dragone taught me in a
private lesson.
Not to forget Tomas and Silvana's teaching of giros
either, which also targeted close-embrace.
> Open embrace tango is almost universally taught as a series of steps.
> This approach makes it very easy for leaders to become lost in their
> heads
Alas Tom, you are so right.
This seems to be the major problem with teaching open-embrace.
But there's one thing good about open-embrace.
I recall stepping on more than my share of toes when I started.
I'd hate to think how many more toes and shins would have
been injured had we been learning close-embrace!
> Intuition, musicality, heart & connection which are so
> important for good tango dancing are not rewarded until you have been
> dancing for quite a while.
That's so true.
It takes much time to develop these four.
Regardless of embrace. IMO.
> >Finally, there s a puzzle maybe someone can solve for me. At what
> >point on the continuum of closeness/distance does milonguero
> >become salon? If a woman s body is only touching so that her bosom
> >is only 99% compressed, is it still milonguero?
Larry, how will this measurement be performed?
Never mind, don't answer.
I don't really want to know. <smile>
> You can do most of the same material in either style, with certain
> technical adjustments, but it isn't really a continuum.
I disagree.
Julio and Corina very nicely taught how I may open
a little for something which requires more space,
and then join up again,
cradling her back in my arms.
I find it quite beautiful, and the degree of openness
(closeness) can be varied - - a continuum.
This flowing from close to open and back to close can
be quite beautiful, like saying "adios" for a brief time
and then saying "hello, so glad to see you again".
It can be very romantic.
> Milonguero Style may be taught with a lean (ARGGGGH!) or with a light
> merging where each partner maintains responsibility for their own
> weight.
I think a proper lean is fine, as long as her
weight is where it needs to be, and no more.
Various Argentine women have danced with anything from
moderate to light horizontally-directed pressures.
Which may be from what you call a lean.
What I don't like is vertical weight.
I don't wish to support a woman's weight
directed downwards on me. Fortunately, there have
only been one or two of those.
Dave
Denver
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:12:45 +0800
From: Juan Rando <juan @STARWON.COM.AU>
Subject: Milonguero Style
My experience in this whole close embrace -vs- open embrace argument is
as such.
If the principles of balance, posture and resistance are taught in open
embrace, they will translate with little modification to a close
embrace. However, often learning a close embrace causes a student to
compensate for not understanding the importance of resistance and
balance, by leaning and collapsing on their partner. Once they have
this bad habit, they'll not be able to translate that to an open hold
when necessary, such as performing the odd (god forbid) Salon style
figure, which generally require some degree of openness in the hold.
Furthermore, when you get a whole group of new students in the studio,
who really finds it that easy to get them to start cuddling each other.
I find that after a couple of months it is easier to start to inroduce
the idea of a closer embrace.
Juan Rando
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:06:59 -0400
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: style
Tom Stermitz wrote:
"The technique required to get to intermediate level tango is more
demanding in open embrace than in close-embrace. In particular, the
turn, which isn't very important at all in close-embrace is an
essential structural element of open embrace tango. To do the turn
smoothly requires very good balance and connection."
I have several questions here:
1. What is INTERMEDIATE LEVEL tango?
Do you promote people by the merit of quality of their movement, such as
moving together with the music, pleased themselves and maybe even
pleasing the eyes of others? Or do you count the number of steps a
dancer has mastered when he counts while observing his feet move? Or,
what is the merit of passing from beginner to intermediate,or to
advanced?
2. I dance in close embrace more than in open. I believe that turns in
close embrace are more difficult because they require movement of "one"
body with four legs, and NO LOOKing on feet. Most beginners can do a
turn in open embrace, but cannot in close embrace.
3. Every visiting tango master-instructor we had here advised us that it
is much easier to maintain balance in open embrace. Simply because the
base is wider and therefore more stable. Why do you think otherwise?
Eugenia
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 01:55:23 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Lumfardo Dictionary
Malevos y Malevas:
Many members asked for a Lunfardo Dictionary recommendation.
Amazon.com - "Vocabulario ideologico del Lumfardo" - 1st. Edition - Paper
back -
Jose Gobelo/Amuchastegui $20.00
You may consult a Lumfardo Dictionary in Internet - address -
http://habitantes.elsitio.com/letratango/
This is an interesting page where you can find Tango Lyrics and more.
You will see on the Home Page a Bandoneon, to the left of the bandoneon
there is an open book, click on it and this will open a beautiful flowing
Dictionary of Lumfardo. It is in Castilian.
Have a good time.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 24 May 2000 to 25 May 2000 (#2000-142)
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