The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 12 May 2000
to 13 May 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 03:00:05 -0400
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 12 May 2000 to 13 May 2000 (#2000-130)
There are 4 messages totalling 269 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Baile or Milonga? about codes and cruelty
2. Thanks
3. Cruel Tango Hierarchies
4. OVER THE SHOULDER
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:15:22 +0900
From: Sang Hyeon Chang <chang @BARAM.PHYS.TOHOKU.AC.JP>
Subject: Baile or Milonga? about codes and cruelty
Hello, lists,
Recently there were many postings about Milonga code and rejections
etc.. one of hottest debate and discussion during this year.
And I am appreciate for all, since everyone kept their manner so
there was no ugly situation like before.
I never been in BsAs, I am just a poor scientist who cannot afford it.
So it was interesting to read all this stories about Milong experiences,
good or bad.. it is like movie RaShoMon, story changes when it was told
by different person.
I think there was two separate issues which mingled together,
rejection - a problem of manner and code of milonga - that if all
the milongero (or milongera) only dances with good dancers how can
a beginner can have dance at all.
Especially, it really sound contradictory, you cannot dance if you aren't
good, but you cannot be good if you are not dancing (watching is good..
but you still need to dance). It may sounds strange.. only if..
there is only milonga and nothing else...
When I saw the documentary Tango: the obsession,
A Milonguero (maybe Facuondo) said, "there are too kind of tango places,
one that friends, family dance together in friendly environment
which is Baile, another is Milonga, which is different. People go there
for their dream... " something like that..
It shows a Baile as well as Milonga, it is like usual tango party in
US or Japan. Casual, friendly, soft drinks are on the table. Friends and
family sit down together, daugther dances with father, teacher dances with
student, girls dance with girls, no code, no eye contact. There are good
dancers and also beginners
I just guess, maybe that's why people who come from other country
sometimes lost in Milonga. People who lived where only one
place to dance which they call themselve milonga but actually is Baile,
come to the real milonga which is only for really dedicated members
in BsAs. I boldly guess that there are some people in Argentina who
only go to baile but not to milonga, or some who go both places.
Maybe someone who are new to tango dances in baile
and improve oneself until some milongero/milongera who also come to
baile and notice him/her and invite to their club, say milonga.
Then it will not be so strange that milongas keep this old codes and
don't welcome newcomers who's tango level are uncertain. Since if there
is a baile and also a milonga, one who come to milonga regularly,
surely want to dance highest level of tango, otherwise they will be
at baile where many level of dancers dance together.
It is just my theory. I should tell you that my work is making theory (I
am theoretical physicist.. :) .
Cheers,
Sang
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 19:31:22 EEST
From: Eva V <e_varon_m @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Thanks
Thanks cherie
I really want thank to all people responded me with their heart.
I saw that there are many people felt the same as me, understood me. Thank
you for couraging me.
I must reply a mail by this way, I mailed her personnaly but seeing that
everyone is so interested in this subject and give their answers I have to
reply again
here is the one
"My dear Alberto
You may have right but the real point is this: I do not complain and
whenever I feel free to do I ask someone to dance with me. My wish is to be
invited by male that is all, like other women would wish.
Yes people have the right to choose, so other people will no have the right
to dance :) is it fair, do u believe so. Thanks God I am not that in a bad
manner, As I said I do have a partner, and what he believes is that they
will not invite me to dance if he is with me...
I do not believe that I act like a child, I am courageous, but I just wanted
to know if I was not dancin good enough to be chosen. Well ... whatever?
I like tango as you can not ever imagine so it is very important for me to
feel the dance and to be comfortable with the person I dance with.
Nevermind
You may think different, but here in Turkey being a very little community of
tango dancers I believe we must pay more attention to what we do, especially
those people I mention
Regards
and here is the other one was to Linda
You are right in a point but not at all.
Yes I was not attending his class for I could not have the chance. But this
would not be so nice by my sidefor if he had accepted to dance with me I
would appresciate and might spend any effort to attend his classes too.
This is one fact.
The second fact is that he is not local at all, but he is also local.
The third fact is ifI evere waited for every teeacher to come and ask me I
would not have the chance how they dance and understand the style at all..
The fourth fact is that I did not ask repeatedly, only once and I am sad
enough.
The fifth is a men from this list answered me that he feltthe same some
time ago when he invited a woman teacher to dance and being rejected...
This is human to feel upset about this.
But in the other hand I believe that there are rude people too.
That night another person was with me someone from England, she also got
angry to this manner, funniest 0f all, seeing that this english woman was
here, the male teacher attempted to get toknow her and invited to dance.....
See There is also a subject of education of the teacher himself
Thanks for your commentations.
I would like also to tell Linda that you must have courage ask people...
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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:30:17 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cruel Tango Hierarchies
In some ways, I feel like Felix is trying to change the nature of the
dicussion.
>The recent discussion about rejection from tango partners suggests
>that the social environment surrounding tango is hierachical and thus
>not very friendly. ... If the difficulty of the dance isn't enough
>to get people to quit, the hierarchical social structure may make the
>difference.
I think these comments completely ignores the point that dancing with
another person IS and OUGHT TO BE completely voluntary.
>I notice a lot more concern with dance skills and concerns about
>dancing with someone of a different skill level than I notice when I
>dance salsa.
Salsa dancing is substantially different than tango dancing. Salsa is
in an outward dance. Tango is an inward focussed dance--sometimes
described as a feeling that is danced.
>So, why can't people at milongas just mingle and socialize and dance
>with people of different skill levels?
In my own small tango community, many of the more experienced dancers
do make an effort to dance with the newcomers and make them feel
welcome. But I have also noticed that over time, people sort out.
Relative skills may have something to do it, but the sorting seems to
be who has danced well together and have become friends. It is
natural for people to want to share their intimate dancing moments
with friends that they have enjoyed dancing with previously.
I might mention that when I was in tango classes at the Stanford Tango
Weeks a number of years ago and the inevitable rotation of partners
was called for, I often found myself dancing with women who had much
more experience and skill at tango than I did. I found that most of
them were quite willing to work with the skills I had and generous in
helping me learn new ones, and I became friends with some of them.
When it came to the milonga later in the evening, however, I did not
then impose myself on my new friends. I danced with people who I had
met and seemed to be approximately at my own skill level--not because
there is a hierarchy, but because I was much more comfortable doing
so.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 22:15:13 +0000
From: "~DANCE MORE TANGO~" <24tango @BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: OVER THE SHOULDER
I am responding in part to Robinnes interest in "gender, power and
culture" in the milongas in BA and to share some observations and
opinions.
After just returning from a trip to BA, I must say that I am
definitely going to consider Manuels idea of dance America first,
or perhaps a trip to Montreal, Nijmegan, or Berlin. Though
my trip was satisfactory and I danced as much as I wanted to
since I have made many friends there over the years, too many
situations arose that really burst the balloon. Let me tell you
of one.
About 8 years
ago I visited a milonga called "Sunderland". Many of you know
its wonderful history and all the exciting things that happen
there. What caught my attention was the fact that the women
draped their left arm around the mans neck very tightly and
danced with their eyes closed. Very interesting to me, who had
never danced that way. I experimented with it when I got home
and found that it brings the couple physically closer and I felt
that a follower really has to trust her partner! I decided that
it was not a position that I chose to dance. Well, as the
years progressed I found that it had become a very popular
position in BA, fortunately my partners always preferred
dancing cheek to cheek, and it never became an issue
.
While attending a milonga this trip I made
eye contact with a milonguero of some standing, and we started
to dance. He informed me that I would have to turn my head over
his shoulder. I politely told him that I thought dancing that way
was very cold and impersonal and I prefer cheek to cheek. And
he said to me, " Well, this will be the last time I dance with you,
I will never dance with you again. I cannot talk to you that way."
I finished the dance and walked away. What did he mean, talk
to me? Does that mean sing to me or give me a lesson as we
danced, which happens a lot. ( I got lots of lessons this trip;
more pressure on the hand, not so much pressure on the hand.
Dont take your feet off the ground, and other bits and pieces
of lessons. ) It seems to me that although it is a mans' dance
I was taught it is up to the lady to decide on position; close or
near, over the shoulder or cheek to cheek. It was suggested
in a private letter to me that 'over the shoulder' is a good
position so the lady can watch for traffic in the rear when
the floor is crowded. Well, when I dance with a lady, I feel
it is my responsibility, as a lead, to watch for traffic and guide
her around it. All a lady should have to do is enjoy the dance.
I waited too long and traveled too far to deal with the egos
and attitudes I encountered, and believe me, not all argentines
can dance tango, even when they proclaim "... of course I dance
tango, I'm an argentine".
warm regards,
norma
End of TANGO-L Digest - 12 May 2000 to 13 May 2000 (#2000-130)
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