The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 11 May 2000
to 12 May 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 03:00:25 -0400
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 11 May 2000 to 12 May 2000 (#2000-129)
There are 9 messages totalling 614 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Rejections (and teachers)
2. Rejection (2)
3. Fw: GERM FREAK!! BEWARE
4. HOAX, HOAX was: Re: Fw: GERM FREAK!! BEWARE
5. Klingerman Virus a HOAX
6. Re; Rejections (and teachers)
7. taxi dancing
8. Cruel Tango Hierarchies
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Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 01:45:09 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Rejections (and teachers)
Carol writes:
> I just read and re-read Linda Valentino's post. The message I got was
> very clear: even at a social event like a dance, a teacher is only
> there for monetary reasons, and people who attend the dance are stupid
> and naive for not realizing that.
I think that Lindas message was not about teachers only dancing for money.
She did say that the teachers would be wiser to dance with those students
who supported their classes rather than those who did not.
> I have seen teachers who did not want to dance with anyone who did not
> buy lessons at a social dance...but, I have also seen male pros pick a
> very inexperienced female dancer off a chair, chat them up, smile
> broadly, give them a little quick free lesson on the floor (I guess
> maybe they are trying to sell some lessons at that point?)
Part of the reason a teacher might not wish to dance with those who did not
participate in the workshops is that these students are more likely to be
unprepared to dance and less pleasurable to dance with. Of course, the
teacher should have the right to dance with whom ever he or she chose. They
do not need to explain anything about their choices to anyone.
> rules depend on where you are. You don't enforce your home rules
> somewhere else--and most of the tango pros don't expect this. A lot of
> pros who don't want to have to dance with anyone keep their partner with
> them at all times. They don't split off and dance with a lot of people,
> so they can more easily socially refuse. If they decide to split up and
> 'work the crowd' with a lot of social dances, perhaps as a means of
> trying to sell lessons at the social event...well, they are asking to be
> asked! They may have to make a lot of rejections.
I'm not aware of any rules in the USA that require the travelling teacher
(or local teacher) to dance with every one who wants to dance with them. A
lot of the pros are extremely tired after a full day of workshops and glad
handing, shmoozing, etc. Some people (particularly those who did not attend
the classes) are not aware of the physical demands of travelling and
teaching long hours. When tey "work the crowd" the teachers are giving above
and beyond their due. Sometimes they are more energetic and enjoy dancing
with more of the people but it's good to remember that they are only human
and have the right to be tired or just not in the mood to dance with just
anyone.
> If the teacher is not available at all for social dancing and it is a
> social event, it should be made *socially* clear, as opposed to relying
> on some vague assumption of the universal underlying monetary basis of
> all things dance-related (yuck).
Again, I don't think this is at all about money. I've hosted many travelling
teachers and whatever else they might do. they generally are not focused on
money during the milongas or other social events. They are guests of honor
and have a lot of demands for their attention placed on them.
I never ask them to dance with me unless they show a willingness to do so. I
think it is extremely rude for women (or men) to chase the teachers and ask
(demad) for dances, regardless of whether they participated in the classes
or not. The teachers responsability does not include dancing with all the
people during the milongas. They get paid to teach and sometimes to perform
a demonstration. That is all. As somebody posted before, these people (the
teachers) depend on their health and physical condition to make a living.
Dancing with every one whom asks is taking a big risk of injury. I've been
injured before by some partners and I know that some of the teachers also
have suffered injuries from dancing with over-eager, unskilled dancers.
These are some of the many reasons why these teachers have the right to
dance or refuse to dance with whoever they choose. I support their choice.
Manuel
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 01:02:03 EDT
From: digest Greg Lewis <GMAN276 @AOL.COM>
Subject: Rejection
re: rejection, etc.
Let's not forget that for most of us, the early days of learning Tango is a
difficult time, with a lot of things to learn, such as leading, following,
balance, timing, rhythm,
embracing your partner, walking, dance floor etiquette, and so on.
Also, let's not forget the high dropout rate from people who just give up for
various reasons, which may include, "it's too difficult", or, "it takes too
long to learn", or, "it's too discouraging waiting around to be asked to
dance", or "it's too discouraging getting rejected when asking for a dance".
Given these realities, it shouldn't be such a big deal to dance with someone
who isn't up to 'your level'. Your partner may just feel inspired to continue
their efforts and appreciate your putting up with their attempts. It doesn't
hurt to encourage someone who's really trying, (this goes for instructors
too!). A few moments of you time can go a long way towards making someone
feel they can really do this...(or at least see the potential).
We all started out as beginners.
(except those born doing ochos.)
greg
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:36:33 -0700
From: David Mendoza <dmendoza @MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Fw: GERM FREAK!! BEWARE
Hi List,
This may not be on the subject of Tango and I wanted to let as many people
know about
something that could affect your health and your lives thus affect your
Tango.
David Mendoza
GERM FREAK!! BEWARE
This is an alert about a virus in the original sense of the
word...one that affects your body, not your hard drive.
There have been 23 confirmed cases of people attacked by the
Klingerman Virus, a virus that arrives in your real mail box, not
your e-mail in box.
Someone has been mailing large blue envelopes, seemingly at random,
to people inside the US. On the front of the envelope in bold black
letters is printed, "A gift for you from the Klingerman Foundation."
When the envelopes are opened, there is a small sponge sealed in plastic.
This
sponge carries what has come to be known as the Klingerman Virus, as
public health officials state this is a strain of virus they have not
previously encountered.
When asked for comment, Florida police Sergeant Stetson said, "We are
working with the CDC and the USPS, but have so far been unable to
track down the origins of these letters. The return addresses have all
beendifferent, and we are certain a remailing service is being used,
making our jobs that much more difficult."
Those who have come in contact with the Klingerman Virus have been
hospitalized with severe dysentery. So far seven of the twenty-three
victims have died. There is no legitimate Klingerman Foundation
mailing unsolicited gifts.
If you receive an oversized blue envelope in the mail marked,"A gift
fromthe Klingerman foundation", DO NOT open it. Place the envelope in a
strongplastic bag or container, and call the police immediately. The
"gift" inside is one you definitely do not want.
PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO EVERYONE YOU CARE ABOUT.
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:55:47 EDT
From: Jack Karako <JKarako @AOL.COM>
Subject: Rejection
In a message dated Thu, 11 May 2000 6:08:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, digest Greg Lewis <GMAN276 @AOL.COM> writes:
<<... it shouldn't be such a big deal to dance with someone who isn't up to 'your level'. Your partner may just feel inspired to continue their efforts and appreciate your putting up with their attempts. It doesn't hurt to encourage someone who's really trying, (this goes for instructors
too!). A few moments of you time can go a long way towards making someone
feel they can really do this...(or at least see the potential).>>
Greg as true as it is, for some professionals when there are 20-30 people who wnat the same thing one can not accommodate their wish to dance, even for one song. When this situation becomes the norm and not an exception, it gets even worse.
Like many others explained the reasons in detail: the choice to ask to dance should be left to the pro, or one should expect a higher rate of rejection.
Jak
www.bailatango.com/alaturca.htm
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:54:32 -0600
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz @MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: HOAX, HOAX was: Re: Fw: GERM FREAK!! BEWARE
Dear David and Tango-L,
David has cared enough about his fellow tango
fans to send us a report about something dangerous.
However, this report is a HOAX.
There is no Klingerman virus.
Please check the web page
http://snopes.com/toxins/klinger.htm
This page is one of many "Urban Legends Reference
Pages" maintained by Barbara and David P. Mikkelson
for the San Fernando Valley Folklore Society.
I will quote from their copyrighted page:
"Origins: Not to worry -- there is no "Klingerman Virus,"
nobody has died from receiving virus-bearing sponges
in the mail, and neither the United States Postal
Service nor the Centers for Disease Control
is currently investigating anything like what
is described here.
This is just another dumb hoax, one based on turning
the concept of a computer "e-mail virus" into a human
"mail virus." Move along; nothing to see here.
Last updated: 29 April 2000
The URL for this page is
http://www.snopes.com/toxins/klinger.htm
Please use this URL in all links or references
to this page
. . .
Urban Legends Reference Pages ) 1995-2000 by Barbara and
David P. Mikkelson"
For all those who receive similar emails,
I suggest first checking these web-sites before
forwarding such emails:
U.S. Department of Energy CIAC (Computer Incident
Advisory Capability) pages on internet hoaxes
and chainletters
http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html
http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACChainLetters.html
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
http://www.cdc.gov/
National Center for Infectious Diseases
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/
(This page has a link about "False Internet
Report about Bananas", which leads to the
Urban Legends pages below.)
Urban Legends Reference Pages (toxins)
http://snopes.com/toxins/
(Last link on this page is for the Klingerman hoax.)
If you like Urban Legends, try the main page
of the San Fernando Valley Folklore Society's
Urban Legends Reference Pages:
http://snopes.com/
Disclaimer: I have no connection with any of the
above organizations.
Dave Schmitz
Denver, Colorado
> From owner-tango-l @MITVMA.MIT.EDU Thu May 11 09:41 MDT 2000
> X-Comment: mitvma.mit.edu: Mail was sent by granger.mail.mindspring.net
> X-Priority: 3
> X-Msmail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:36:33 -0700
> From: David Mendoza <dmendoza @MINDSPRING.COM>
> Subject: Fw: GERM FREAK!! BEWARE
> To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>
> Hi List,
>
> This may not be on the subject of Tango and I wanted to let as many people
> know about
> something that could affect your health and your lives thus affect your
> Tango.
>
> David Mendoza
>
>
> GERM FREAK!! BEWARE
>
> This is an alert about a virus in the original sense of the
> word...one that affects your body, not your hard drive.
> There have been 23 confirmed cases of people attacked by the
> Klingerman Virus, a virus that arrives in your real mail box, not
> your e-mail in box.
>
> Someone has been mailing large blue envelopes, seemingly at random,
> to people inside the US. On the front of the envelope in bold black
> letters is printed, "A gift for you from the Klingerman Foundation."
> When the envelopes are opened, there is a small sponge sealed in plastic.
> This
> sponge carries what has come to be known as the Klingerman Virus, as
> public health officials state this is a strain of virus they have not
> previously encountered.
> When asked for comment, Florida police Sergeant Stetson said, "We are
> working with the CDC and the USPS, but have so far been unable to
> track down the origins of these letters. The return addresses have all
> beendifferent, and we are certain a remailing service is being used,
> making our jobs that much more difficult."
> Those who have come in contact with the Klingerman Virus have been
> hospitalized with severe dysentery. So far seven of the twenty-three
> victims have died. There is no legitimate Klingerman Foundation
> mailing unsolicited gifts.
> If you receive an oversized blue envelope in the mail marked,"A gift
> fromthe Klingerman foundation", DO NOT open it. Place the envelope in a
> strongplastic bag or container, and call the police immediately. The
> "gift" inside is one you definitely do not want.
>
> PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO EVERYONE YOU CARE ABOUT.
>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:06:19 -0700
From: David Mendoza <dmendoza @MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Klingerman Virus a HOAX
Dear List,
Thank you for those of you who were courteous enough to let me know,
offline, that the Klingerman Virus is a hoax. Now that I have the
appropriate websites to check out these situations before letting everyone
know, I will investigate before sending out any emails to this list. Thank
you, C. Oshiro and Dave Schmitz for your information on those websites.
Thank goodness, this was only a hoax. This would be the last thing we
would need in this community, don't you agree?
David Mendoza
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:47:23 -0700
From: Linda Valentino <LindaValentino @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Re; Rejections (and teachers)
In response to both Carol Shepard's posting re teachers, monetary issues and
social dances:
Again, this is where common sense should come into play. What is a teacher
from Buenos Aires doing in the United States? He or she is here for
WORK--yes, (horrors) to EARN MONEY! I'm sorry that some people find that
offensive
or yucky. But this is a fact. When these teachers are teaching in another
country, it's for business. If these people wanted only to dance socially
for their own enjoyment, they
would stay in Buenos Aires, where they can dance all night long with people
on their own level of expertise. As for the "when in Rome" philosophy, maybe
we Americans need to be reminded that WE are the ones in Rome, so to speak.
Tango is not our culture. It is Argentinean culture, and we are merely
"borrowing" it. And it seems to me that when you borrow someone else's
culture, you should respect the codes that go with it, which brings us back
to the issue of women not asking men--at least not asking Argentinean
men--to dance. As for "how am I supposed to know what's social and what's
monetary?" The answer is, you don't need to know. That's for the teacher to
decide. If he wishes to dance with someone he does not know and who does not
take his classes, that is HIS decision. That decision should not be forced
on him by women pursuing him with invitations to dance. If he wants to dance
with someone, he'll ask her. Otherwise, local women should have the manners
to leave him alone and wait until he asks them.
In regard to Cherie's posting, I definitely sympathize with her. Most
visiting teachers have the class and common sense to know that when they
have a student who is taking several privates with them, it is a good idea
to ask them for at least one dance at the milonga. It does give the student
an opportunity to shine, and it is good P.R. for the teacher. Unfortunately,
there are a few of these guys who either don't have the smarts or the good
manners to understand this, including the one to whom you refer (yes, I know
who this is). They prefer to spend their time dancing with and pursuing
very young girls (usually at least half their age), most of whom can't
dance, don't take classes, and come to the milongas dressed like hookers. Of
course, these men hope that they're going to "get lucky" with one of these
young women for the night. But what they're also doing is losing the
respect of students like you, who may not take lessons in the future as a
result of their behavior. My advice in these cases is, there are much better
teachers out there, who also have much better manners. We must learn to be
more discriminating with our tango dollars.
--Linda
P.S: Thanks to the many of you who replied to me privately, agreeing with my
posting. And thanks to my friend John, who has always been a pleasure to
dance with, even when he was a beginner!
Original Message -----
From: "Carol Shepherd" <shepherd @arborlaw.com>
To: "Linda Valentino" <LindaValentino @PRODIGY.NET>; <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 5:53 AM
Subject: Re: Rejections (and teachers)
> I just read and re-read Linda Valentino's post. The message I got was
> very clear: even at a social event like a dance, a teacher is only
> there for monetary reasons, and people who attend the dance are stupid
> and naive for not realizing that. The problem is this is a very mixed
> message! No wonder many dancers are confused, they come to a dance
> thinking it is a *social* event, when actually it is the organizer's
> celebration of the consummation of a bunch of commercial transactions.
> If this is the case, why not have the teacher wear a sign that says
> "TANGO PRO--I only dance for $$$". You see my point.
>
> I have seen teachers who did not want to dance with anyone who did not
> buy lessons at a social dance...but, I have also seen male pros pick a
> very inexperienced female dancer off a chair, chat them up, smile
> broadly, give them a little quick free lesson on the floor (I guess
> maybe they are trying to sell some lessons at that point?) Looks like a
> social dance to me! So the message to a lady dancer in attendance at a
> social event is very mixed: for the tango pro, this is obviously
> monetary only at some times, social at other times. How am I supposed
> to know what's social and what's monetary?
>
> Male teachers from Bs As should be used to women asking in the US.
> 'When in Rome do as the Romans do.' I am very grateful for all of the
> info provided on this list on Bs. As. milongas, and not breaking those
> rules when I am there. But surely we all know--and these extremely
> cosmopolitan, internationally traveled teachers do realize--that the
> rules depend on where you are. You don't enforce your home rules
> somewhere else--and most of the tango pros don't expect this. A lot of
> pros who don't want to have to dance with anyone keep their partner with
> them at all times. They don't split off and dance with a lot of people,
> so they can more easily socially refuse. If they decide to split up and
> 'work the crowd' with a lot of social dances, perhaps as a means of
> trying to sell lessons at the social event...well, they are asking to be
> asked! They may have to make a lot of rejections.
>
> A pro at a milonga is still a dancer attending a dance. If local custom
> says it is OK for a man to be asked by a lady, then that dancer should
> not take offense. If a dancer turns a potential partner down they need
> do it politely with regard to the rejected partner's feelings, even if
> the dancer is a pro or a star.
>
> If the teacher is not available at all for social dancing and it is a
> social event, it should be made *socially* clear, as opposed to relying
> on some vague assumption of the universal underlying monetary basis of
> all things dance-related (yuck). In other words, make it socially clear
> that this person is off-limits *socially* to most. How about telling
> the truth: "Announcement, Fulano is only dancing with current workshop
> and private lesson students tonight." This may strike everyone as
> socially gauche (cursi): it is! That's a natural reaction to the
> mixture of monetary with social, they are not really supposed to be
> mixed! Or the teacher must deal with it himself personally over and
> over again in rejecting individual dancers.
>
> A possible compromise solution is to make the teacher "guest of honor."
> This will send a social (as oppposed to monetary) signal that there are
> many people who will be trying to interact with one person at this
> social event. Most people will follow the social rule "don't monopolize
> the bride at the wedding!" Just a thought...hope this helps.
>
> --
> Carol Ruth Shepherd
> Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:28:02 -0600
From: Chas Gale <Chuck.Gale @IHSENERGY.COM>
Subject: taxi dancing
In a recent thread it was suggested that a person could hire a partner/escort in
order to ensure themselves a minimum number of dances and help them become
"known" at the milongas as a worthy tanguera/o. The objection to this practice
by some was vehement and compared it to that of, now get this, prostitution.
This is quite a stretch don't you think? The right for anyone to sell their
legal skills, especially in a depressed economy notwithstanding, let's face it;
Paying someone to dance with you is nothing new. Probably everyone on this list
is old enough to have a mother or grandmother that was a taxi dancer. A practice
that I don't believe was peculiar to North America. And I know a number of
retired men who work for cruise line for the single purpose of dancing with
women on cruise ships. And hiring "assistance" to gender balance a dance tour is
a stroke of genius. So I'd like to spend a few words debunking, point by point,
the notion that paying or being paid to dance with someone is comparable to
prostitution;
1. Prostitutes wear 6 inch FM stilettos with fishnet stockings with seams down
the back, tight skirt with long slits, elaborate hairdo's and more makeup than
would be appropriate for anything else. Gigolo's have a lot of silk shirts and
shiny shoes.
Tango dancers,.... umm, ... well,...... OK. Ya got me on that one.
2. Prostitutes sleep all day, go out late, hang around bars and do it with lots
of people.
Tango dancers, ,.... welll,.... I,.... ah,..... OK. Ya got me on that one to.
3. Prostitutes are valued strictly for what they do with they bodies. Their
intellects is of no importance.
Tango dancers,......................................................... OK.
You're 3 for 3, BUT!
4. Prostitutes are paid for physical
gratification,,,,,,,,,,,,,,...................................................
Oh never mind.
Chas Gale, Denver, Colorado, USA
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 01:21:05 +0000
From: Felix Delgado <felixmilonguero @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Cruel Tango Hierarchies
I've been reading all the discussion on the list, mostly from women,
about being rejected as men's choices in dancing tango. This topic was
raised with regard to strict codes of selecting partners in Buenos Aires,
where women often wait in frustration because men do not ask them to
dance, apparently in part because they are not young enough or pretty
enough, which at times leads to anorexia, hair-dying, etc., but also in
part because their ability is unknown and any self-respecting milonguero
would not be seen dancing with a woman who is not good enough. In Buenos
Aires, women are prohibited by custom to ask men to dance, heightening
the frustration. This was followed by several posts which shifted
attention to the US, where woman are permitted by custom to ask men to
dance, and the issue of (mostly women) asking instructors (particularly
visiting ones from Argentina) to dance and being rejected was raised. The
right of instructors to refuse because women are so desperate in wanting
to be seen with the instuctor was stated, and the right of instructors to
defend their financial interests by only dancing with paying customers
(i.e., attendees of workshops) was also addressed. These posts and
numerous other posts over the last several months that I've been reading
this list have expressed the opinion that the ability of one's
prospective dance partner is a critical factor affecting the decision to
dance with a particular person and that one is justified in rejecting a
partner that one considers inferior in ability (although women complain
men break their rules when a young, pretty novice arrives).
Imagine a complete novice, particularly a women, wanting to learn about
tango by reading this list. The impression that she would have,
particularly if she were neither young nor pretty, would be that she
would be wasting her time.
Despite all the expression of love of tango we hear about because it is
such a beautiful dance, allowing expression of intense emotions, sharing
these with a partner, and achieving a harmony with the partner and the
crowd at a milonga, under these rules these would be the experiences of
the select few who have spent years taking lessons and practicing
seriously to experience some part of this blissful state. In reality,
most people who dance tango do not achieve this elevated state. If we
care, we're still seriously working on improving our ochos and giros and
hope that we too will someday be recognized as highly skilled (and
therefore highly desired) tangueros or, if we don't care, we recognize
that we will not be accepted by the upper echelon of tango royalty and
may soon quit anyway.
The recent discussion about rejection from tango partners suggests that
the social environment surrounding tango is hierachical and thus not very
friendly. Expression of dance prowess leads to social acceptance and
status in the tango community. If the difficulty of the dance isn't
enough to get people to quit, the hierarchical social structure may make
the difference. The tango elite may claim people quit because tango is
too difficult, but has anyone considered that people quit because the
environment is too judgmental, too competitive?
Think of the path of the aspiring tanguero under these conditions. When
you're a beginner, no one wants to dance with you because you're not good
enough, but as you get better you find fewer people you want to dance
with until you're the best and then no one is good enough to dance with
you. You're pretty much back where you started.
I don't believe all or hopefully most people dancing tango (at least in
the US) adhere to these principles. Tango wouldn't be increasing in
popularity if they did. I hope this is just a malady of the writers to
this list. Although I see some competitiveness and hierachical adjustment
problems in my own tango community, most people dance with others of
differing dance abilities, and a lot of people have fun at the milongas.
But I notice a lot more concern with dance skills and concerns about
dancing with someone of a different skill level than I notice when I
dance salsa. At the salsa dances people just seem to want to have fun and
mix and although someone might be praised for their dance prowess, there
is less of a connection between dance skills and acceptability as a dance
partner (or concern about one's dance skills) than I see in the tango
community.
So, why can't people at milongas just mingle and socialize and dance with
people of different skill levels? I'm sure some of you are getting ready
to say "Now, Felix, how can you be so naive? You can't have the ultimate
tango experience unless you have the right partner with the right skills,
so why waste your time?", but I say that if tango needs to be exclusive,
it may exclude itself into extinction, and you won't have your milongas
to achieve your intense emotional experiences. Thus, a little bit more
egalitarianism and acceptance of others, regardless of skill level, would
go a long way towards reducing reports of rejection and perhaps create a
greater sense of harmony and shared positive feeling at the milonga.
Felix
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 11 May 2000 to 12 May 2000 (#2000-129)
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