The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 9 May 2000
to 10 May 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 03:00:50 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 9 May 2000 to 10 May 2000 (#2000-127)
There are 9 messages totalling 443 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Calling Argentina - cheaply
2. NA-E, NA-C: Miguel Zotto teaching in NYC, Ithaca
3. Rejections (2)
4. Rejections (and teachers) (3)
5. What a milonguero looks for
6. Rejection
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 08:57:26 -0400
From: Reuven <Reuven @THEBEST1.COM>
Subject: Re: Calling Argentina - cheaply
Here is another tip on long distance calling:
I use 101-6868 for pretty much all of my calls. To Argentina they charge
$0.32 per minute, without prepayment or membership. To Canada, England
and within the US $0.079 per minute, Germany $0.09 etc. As Dave, I have
no connection or interest in that service. To get the list of all rates
call 800-660-5377 or check their site at http://www.pt-1.com/qa.htm
Enjoy, Reuven
Dave Schmitz wrote:
> Dear list-people,
>
> I had foreign guests (from Europe)
> in my house back in March. One of them used my phone
> to call home. At $2.30 per minute, it was quite
> an expensive call, even for just four minutes.
>
> Since then, I've found a much cheaper way to call,
> both to my guests' country and to Argentina. The
> above call would have been 30 cents per minute
> instead of 230 cents per minute!
>
> NOTE:
> I have no connection with Sam's Club nor with AT&T.
>
> Sam's Club now sells AT&T Prepaid Phone Cards for
> 5.9 cents per domestic (USA to USA) minute. The
> rate
> from USA to Argentina is 5:1 ratio, so 30 cents per minute,
> from Argentina to USA is 9:1 ratio, so 54 cents per minute.
> These ratios are subject to change.
>
> Cards are available for 350 or 1000 domestic minutes
> (70 or 200 minutes to Argentina), and may be re-charged
> with a credit card for the same per-minute price.
>
> The Card may also be used from other countries to
> call Argentina, but I have no information on rates.
> For those rates, you might call the AT&T Customer Service
> number, 1-888-854-6740 (USA).
>
> AT&T also sells these cards from their web site,
> but the price is a lot higher than from Sam's Club.
>
> If anyone can beat these rates, please let us all know.
>
> Dave Schmitz
> Denver, Colorado
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:05:05 -0400
From: Matej Oresic <matej.oresic @CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: NA-E, NA-C: Miguel Zotto teaching in NYC, Ithaca
Hello,
Miguel Zotto, co-creator of Perfumes de Tango and recently voted in BsAs
as one of the three greatest tango dancers in 20th century (along with
Copes and Virulazo...) is going to be in NYC with a partner (from
TangoX2, TBA) to teach and perform on:
Thursday, June 1 (evening workshops in Sandra Cameron Dance Center)
Saturday, June 3 (show at Danel&Maria's milonga at 92nd St Y, there will
be live music by New York Tango "Trio", actually a quartet, since
Leonardo Suarez Paz will join on violin)
Sunday, June 4 (afternoon workshops in Sandra Cameron Dance Center)
Wednesday, June 7 (evening classes at Mt Vernon)
Details: Danel&Maria (718-325-6579)
Miguel Zotto & partner will be joined by Eduardo Aguirre & Yvonne
Meissner, as well as Trio Pantango from Buenos Aires during the Summer
TangoFestival in Ithaca on June 23-25. Details and registration at:
http://lancelot.bio.cornell.edu/matej/tango/summerfest.html
Best regards,
Matej
http://lancelot.bio.cornell.edu/matej/tango/
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 09:56:39 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Rejections
Let me second Linda's comments about dancing with professors:
>When they are teaching in a community and go to the local milongas, they
>either want to dance with students who are supporting them (good business),
>or for their own enjoyment by dancing with friends or with their own
>partners. Personally, I never even ask the teachers I am hosting, many of
>whom have become close friends of mine over the years. I figure that if
>they want to dance with me they will do the asking. And I never, ever ask a
>teacher--either local or visiting--from whom I have never taken classes.
I have seen both men and women stalk professors looking for a dance. I
would not conjecture whether the motive is self-validation or simply wanting
to experience dancing with someone who is a great dancer.
Personally, I never ask a professor to dance with me--even when I have taken
classes from her. If she asks me or we make eye contact and we mutually
agree to dance that is a different story--then I do dance with her. In my
opinion, the eye contact method of inviting and consenting to dance allows
both the man and the woman to consent to the dance.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:24:40 EDT
From: Cherie Magnus <MACFroggy @AOL.COM>
Subject: Rejections
Hi List,
I never invite anyone to dance, especially teachers, but I have a brief
experience to add to this discussion that happened some time ago.
I had been taking classes with a teacher for a while but never
danced with him at a social situation. One night at a quiet milonga when
he didn't seem occupied, I did summon my courage to go up to
him and ask him to dance.
He said, "Oh no, I'm not feeling well tonight," and then later danced
with other women.
I never felt the same about taking lessons from him after that (he finally
did ask me to dance over a year later), because I felt there was really no
interest or pride in me as a student.
If you're a tango teacher and make your living from students, it only
seems logical to me that when you come to a milonga, you work it.
If it's your business, you schmooze and make nice with everyone, and
dance and show off as many of your students as you can. And try to find
time to dance with prospective students as well. This is good business.
It seems logical to me that if you're a tango teacher who is really
motivated to teach and acquire students, you work at a milonga,
you're just not there to enjoy yourself like the rest of us. I
mean it's up to you, I'm not complaining about it, it just seems like
common sense. But frankly, many teachers just amuse themselves at
milongas and then moan about lack of commitment from their
students.
Tangential to this is the milonga hosts who ignore their guests and
spend the entire evening dancing with their partner. Unbelievably bad
business practice.
Maybe it's because there's usually no competition in smaller towns
in the U.S. for students and milonga attendees, unlike in Buenos Aires,
where the milonga hosts warmly greet and seat you, and the teachers
never rest from their constant PR.
In the States, there's usually only one milonga in town on an evening,
and maybe one or two teachers, so I guess there's no need to work it.
It's a seller's market.
But then that brings me back to my old, worn out subject of simple
good manners.
And believe me, I'm not going to get into that again!
Cherie
Los Angeles
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:53:21 +0000
From: Carol Shepherd <shepherd @ARBORLAW.COM>
Subject: Re: Rejections (and teachers)
I just read and re-read Linda Valentino's post. The message I got was
very clear: even at a social event like a dance, a teacher is only
there for monetary reasons, and people who attend the dance are stupid
and naive for not realizing that. The problem is this is a very mixed
message! No wonder many dancers are confused, they come to a dance
thinking it is a *social* event, when actually it is the organizer's
celebration of the consummation of a bunch of commercial transactions.
If this is the case, why not have the teacher wear a sign that says
"TANGO PRO--I only dance for $$$". You see my point.
I have seen teachers who did not want to dance with anyone who did not
buy lessons at a social dance...but, I have also seen male pros pick a
very inexperienced female dancer off a chair, chat them up, smile
broadly, give them a little quick free lesson on the floor (I guess
maybe they are trying to sell some lessons at that point?) Looks like a
social dance to me! So the message to a lady dancer in attendance at a
social event is very mixed: for the tango pro, this is obviously
monetary only at some times, social at other times. How am I supposed
to know what's social and what's monetary?
Male teachers from Bs As should be used to women asking in the US.
'When in Rome do as the Romans do.' I am very grateful for all of the
info provided on this list on Bs. As. milongas, and not breaking those
rules when I am there. But surely we all know--and these extremely
cosmopolitan, internationally traveled teachers do realize--that the
rules depend on where you are. You don't enforce your home rules
somewhere else--and most of the tango pros don't expect this. A lot of
pros who don't want to have to dance with anyone keep their partner with
them at all times. They don't split off and dance with a lot of people,
so they can more easily socially refuse. If they decide to split up and
'work the crowd' with a lot of social dances, perhaps as a means of
trying to sell lessons at the social event...well, they are asking to be
asked! They may have to make a lot of rejections.
A pro at a milonga is still a dancer attending a dance. If local custom
says it is OK for a man to be asked by a lady, then that dancer should
not take offense. If a dancer turns a potential partner down they need
do it politely with regard to the rejected partner's feelings, even if
the dancer is a pro or a star.
If the teacher is not available at all for social dancing and it is a
social event, it should be made *socially* clear, as opposed to relying
on some vague assumption of the universal underlying monetary basis of
all things dance-related (yuck). In other words, make it socially clear
that this person is off-limits *socially* to most. How about telling
the truth: "Announcement, Fulano is only dancing with current workshop
and private lesson students tonight." This may strike everyone as
socially gauche (cursi): it is! That's a natural reaction to the
mixture of monetary with social, they are not really supposed to be
mixed! Or the teacher must deal with it himself personally over and
over again in rejecting individual dancers.
A possible compromise solution is to make the teacher "guest of honor."
This will send a social (as oppposed to monetary) signal that there are
many people who will be trying to interact with one person at this
social event. Most people will follow the social rule "don't monopolize
the bride at the wedding!" Just a thought...hope this helps.
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 11:05:55 -0700
From: Mike Hamilton <mikeh @MPL.UCSD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rejections (and teachers)
On Tue, 9 May 2000, Carol Shepherd wrote:
> I just read and re-read Linda Valentino's post. The message I got was
> very clear: even at a social event like a dance, a teacher is only
> there for monetary reasons, and people who attend the dance are stupid
> and naive for not realizing that. The problem is this is a very mixed
I don't think that's true at all. She was making a point about people
supporting people who support them. It is not a matter of rejecting
people who don't attend the workshops, rather it is a matter of
choosing where to spend the limited amount of time a teacher has with
the people who supported them by coming to workshops, ergo, helped
bring them there in the first place. Indeed, the teacher almost has a
responsibility to do this. Look at it from the other perspective:
what if the teacher spent all his time dancing with people who
*didn't* take his workshops. That really doesn't make sense at all.
So, rather than trying to force more people to take a workshop or
punish people who didn't, the teacher is supporting the people who
essentially brought him/her there.
> Male teachers from Bs As should be used to women asking in the US.
> 'When in Rome do as the Romans do.' I am very grateful for all of the
> info provided on this list on Bs. As. milongas, and not breaking those
> rules when I am there. But surely we all know--and these extremely
This is true. But, at the same time, the teacher is allowed to make
his/her own decisions about who to dance with on whatever criteria
they desire. And if you're expecting a teacher to *work* at a
milonga, then maybe you should consider *paying* them to be there.
Otherwise, they can dance with whoever they want to, just like anyone
else. Granted, there may be business consequences of whatever they
do, and they'll have to take that into consideration.
> A pro at a milonga is still a dancer attending a dance. If local custom
> says it is OK for a man to be asked by a lady, then that dancer should
> not take offense. If a dancer turns a potential partner down they need
> do it politely with regard to the rejected partner's feelings, even if
> the dancer is a pro or a star.
This is true. I don't think that Linda said anything to the contrary.
Her opinion was made very clear and was strongly stated, but, nobody
was being bashed at a milonga here.
> A possible compromise solution is to make the teacher "guest of honor."
> This will send a social (as oppposed to monetary) signal that there are
> many people who will be trying to interact with one person at this
> social event. Most people will follow the social rule "don't monopolize
> the bride at the wedding!" Just a thought...hope this helps.
If only *that* were true. This isn't just a problem with Tango,
either. Guest dance teachers, particularly the men, it seems, are
mobbed by women asking them to dance all too often. And, it should be
obvious to anyone who knows what's going on that a visiting teacher
is, practically speaking, a guest of honor. That doesn't seem to slow
them down, no matter who else wants to dance.
Best wishes,
Mike Hamilton
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:12:49 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Rejections (and teachers)
Carol Ruth Shepard wrote:
>I just read and re-read Linda Valentino's post. The message I got was
>very clear: even at a social event like a dance, a teacher is only
>there for monetary reasons, and people who attend the dance are stupid
>and naive for not realizing that.
I did not read Linda's post the same way at all. I saw it as a
suggestion to treat visiting teachers with common courtesy and respect
or to expect rejection.
>Male teachers from Bs As should be used to women asking in the US. ...
>A pro at a milonga is still a dancer attending a dance. ... If the
>teacher is not available at all for social dancing and it is a social
>event, it should be made *socially* clear, ...
Yes, it is acceptable for women to ask men to dance in the United States
to some extent, but the issue is not strictly one of U.S. codes versus
Argentine codes. It is also a question of treating strangers (the tango
teachers) with common courtesy and respect.
Some individuals pursue dancing with tango teachers. They seem to treat
the teachers as having fewer rights than the average person, perhaps
slightly more than a paid escort. The pursuers ignore the fact that
many of the top tango teachers are artists who have considerable
professional training and experience.
Tango teachers deserve at least as much space and opportunity to consent
to a dance as any other person. Maybe they deserve a little more. Has
anyone considered the consequence of injuring a teacher while dancing
with him or her? Few of these teachers have the insurance to pay for
their injuries or to compensate them while they are out of work. I have
known tango teachers who (out of necessity) continued teaching while
having severely injured backs, sprained ankles, or broken arms.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 22:24:37 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango @FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: What a milonguero looks for
If a milonguero has not seen how a woman dances, he will not take her to the
floor. He doesn't care how she's dressed. He only cares how she dances.
If another milonguero can't tell him that a woman dances well, he will not
dance with her.
A milonguero wants to dance well.
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 22:29:18 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Rejection
Deborah, you responded to Eva, who wrote an email to this list
regarding rejection in
dancing. 5/1/00, reducing the "rejection rate."
After a hiatus of 30 years I'm beginning to relearn the Tango and thought my
major obstacles would be learning the steps, keeping time to the music and
finding a dance partner (not easy in a small Kentucky town on the banks of
the Ohio River). Thanks for reminding me of the related social skills
necessary for making the evening pleasant for those ladies I ask to dance,
as well as those ladies who choose to ask me.
Steve
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve,
While I wanted to do a one liner -- entitled "How nice of you," I remember
that the list wants more.
So, I have to say more. But, Steve, how nice of you. How very nice of you.
And, although I agree that you have to pay attention to the parts of the
dance
that have to do with learning the steps and keeping time to the music,
I don't think you have to be stressed about finding a partner. Although
it is the ultimate experience in dancing to have a "partner," it is not
necessary.
And, since your simple message was put on the public domain I will answer
in the public domain.
Steve, the rest of this message is for the public domain, not you.
A POSSIBLE SOLUTION.
I am very happy to read all of the comments about women who are not
happy because they don't get asked to dance.
Let's pretend we are an area (not Buenos Aires) where Argentine Tango is
starting to take hold.
And let's forget about eye contact, since that came later?
There are two types of women -- the type that get asked to dance and the
type that does not. Let's pretend that this problem is not just happening
now in the world, but that this problem did happen in tango's beginnings.
With regard to the "poor" girls from the provinces who have no money to
buy cosmetics -- we number them starting at the number "1." With regard
to the "rich" girls from the city who have money to buy cosmetics, and have
a chaperone -- we number them starting at the number "50."
Each man in the milonga must start with the number "1" and go through
the numbers. The enforcement of this procedure can be by (probably
everyone), but it will be strictly enforced.
OK, everybody hit me. I'm ready.
Deborah
B.A. Tango
End of TANGO-L Digest - 9 May 2000 to 10 May 2000 (#2000-127)
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