The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 7 May 2000
to 8 May 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 03:00:06 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 7 May 2000 to 8 May 2000 (#2000-125)
There are 5 messages totalling 427 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Getting started (or finished off) in Buenos Aires
2. buying dancers and the spirit of the milonga (2)
3. Tango Violinists
4. ALONE IN MECCA
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 14:52:51 -0800
From: Steve Hoffman <DrSteveH @IBM.NET>
Subject: Getting started (or finished off) in Buenos Aires
Regarding the recent thread on getting started dancing in Buenos Aires, the
*Code*, and the comments of Janis Kenyon and Stephen Brown:
As usual, Janis pulls no punches and I think her description of the Code,
how it works, and it's power in the milongas, is fairly stated. ("All I
can say to the women who don't like the code is--good luck.") Likewise,
Stephen Brown's comments and suggestions are valid and potentially useful.
This recent commentary on this somewhat angst-producing subject refers
multiple times to the dancing ability of the person in question, and how to
get those first dances in the milonga. ("The women who dance well have
absolutely no problem with eye contact in the milongas. Those who can't
dance well are the ones who are complaining."- Janis.)
But I think there is an even more problematic feature to this chronic
problem for the newcomer in Buenos Aires than people have mentioned so far.
I have alluded to it in previous postings (and took a lot of flak from a
very angry Argentine male as a result), but, I am willing to write it
again, because I think that there are Norteamericanos and perhaps Europeans
who, not appreciating these facts, can set themselves up for a fall, and
emotional pain, in Bs.As. Does the readership remember some of the sad
commentary that was presented here after the most recent CITA event?
My main point is that, in addition to dancing ability and newness at the
milonga, in Argentina there is a very powerful cult about looks and age.
Argentina is unlike the USA and Europe in a number of ways that are
critical to the tango tourist:
=46irst, it is a very macho society, and neither women or men want anything
to do with feminism or equality on the dance floor, or, in fact, in many
other facets of life. Life is not fair; they know it; and that's just too
bad ...is frequently the position taken.
Second, in Argentina, there is an indisputably large surplus of available
single women (explainable mathematically, if you know the demographic,
emigration, and marriage/relationship patterns). They are young, and they
are very good looking, very slim, and generally dressed to kill. Women,
this is your competition.
Third, (and due to numbers One and Two, above), there is a cult of *looks*
in Argentina that is extremely infuential in most social settings, and
especially in tango. Our recent correspondents have mentioned dancing
ability many times, and certainly this is a factor, but I am afraid that
looks and age are at least as important, especially when it comes to
newcomers, tourists in general, and perhaps women in particular. Even here
in the USA, it is obvious that young and good-looking women who are
beginners often get a lot more action than older or less-attractive women
who may be wonderful dancers (and more gracious and warm too). It is much
much worse in Buenos Aires.
I am told, by Argentine men who live in both worlds (USA and there), that
even for men, slimness is paramount in the milongas of Bs.As. (Not to say
that there aren't plenty of shorter and more rotund older milongueros,
however.) Younger men deny themselves food, to get as slender as
possible, in order to look the part, and look their best, on the dance
floor. This being true for the men, who have the upper hand in almost
every way (as leaders, with *the Code*, the male-female ratio, money - you
name it), what about the women?
Well, in medical conferences I have attended in Bs.As., I have been told
(and I have read many times), that there is an epidemic of bulemia and
anorexia in Argentina, with the competition and the insecurity on the part
of women being so high and so intense. Whereas in America, about 1/3 of
women are obese, and another 1/3 are over ideal body weight, in Argentina,
about 90% are AT or BELOW ideal body weight. (You don't believe it? Go
there.)
So what does all of this have to do with arriving in Bs.As. and trying to
get into the tango scene?
It has an enormous amount to do with it - much more than you might imagine
if you grow up in the USA, for example. Looks, age, clothes .... are
extremely important and influential in tango. Dancing ability is fine and
good, if you are attractive and preferably young. But, I personally know
of several excellent followers, who are older than the average crowd in
many of the popular milongas porte=F1as, who didn't hardly get to dance at
all on a two-week excursion.
I am not writing this to stir up passions, or upset anyone. I just think
that if we are going to discuss this subject, we should bring in all the
elements. As I desribed in a posting many months ago, an Argentine male
that I know from the US said to me in a Bs.As. milonga: "Tango is cruel."
Not that the dance itself if cruel; rather, the selection of partners, the
demand for youth and beauty, can be cruel.
I personally found the tango scene to be almost impossible in Argentina.
As a male dancer, I found that the numerical edge was no help whatsoever.
I speak adequate Spanish: no help. I have traveled around the world (40
countries) for over 25 years, and lived and worked in Latin America on and
off for years: no help. I am athletic, fit, and in my late forties: no
help. I averaged less than one dance per milonga attended in Buenos
Aires. Now, as Janis has explained here previously in a number of ways:
If I had stayed for quite a while longer and really focused on *being
there*, being seen, getting known, getting a handful of introductory
dances, getting recognized somehow - then, I probably would have broken
through the "glass ceiling" (or is it "floor" in this case?). But it
didn't happen, although I did try as best I could.
To conclude, I will repeat one more issue I raised once before, and I will
repeat it for two reasons. One, so that people don't think I am writing in
a "superior" tone, and the other: so people can take one more individual's
perspective into account when they think about taking a trip to Argentina,
for tango.
As I once said in this forum, I have never in my life spent so much time
alone, in silence, completely isolated from social contact, as in
Argentina. I traveled there four times, spending a total of about 6 weeks
in Bs.As., and a month visiting many other interesting and beautiful parts
of that spectactular country... and I met nobody to speak of, and literally
went weeks at a time with nobody to talk to except taxi drivers and
waiters. Compared to Southest and Central Asia, Europe, Russia, the
South Pacific, Cuba, the States, as well as many other South and Central
American countries I have been to ... I have never visited a country where
the people have less interest, and less to offer, to foreigners and
tourists, as in Argentina.
But maybe the mistake was mine. As a very well-known Argentine woman tango
teacher (who lives in the USA) told me: "If you go somewhere alone in
Argentina, people will think you want to be alone, so, they will leave you
alone." Don't go alone. However, when I traveled around the country for
two weeks with a great traveling buddy, who is a lot of fun and a very
experienced traveler, we also did not find it possible to meet or speak to
a single Argentine (other than waiters or service people), the entire time.
I know many other people's experiences have ranged from better to
excellent, and I well remember the firestorm of criticism from certain
Argentine men, for my earlier comments, but I stick with the story of my
experience as a real and legitimate one, and I believe that others should
have the benefit of all the stories, not just the accounts from the more
fortuntate or better looking or more connected ones.
My $0.02, less taxes,
Steve Hoffman
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 17:11:11 -0500
From: Julie Taylor <jtaylor @RICE.EDU>
Subject: buying dancers and the spirit of the milonga
Tangueros,
in the context of my twenty years in Argentina -- yes, TWENTY -- let me
explain why I find deeply disturbing a suggestion that hiring milongueros
in Buenos Aires is a neutral practice. It is not neutral; it is deeply
reprehensible. And it will boomerang on those who use it.
Those who resort to hiring a partner for something that should be a deeply
shared and improvised experience will find that they can never find the
magic of the milonga, when it comes together in those moments of
spontaneous camaraderie and awe at the rare occurrence of great dancing by
chance. And people who resort to buying a dancer will miss out on all the
subtleties of dance and unique social relations that they could drink in as
they sit quietly and watch the people who have been drinking in milongas
for lifetimes. Milongueros do not learn the tango by dancing constantly
for years. They learn by watching and concentrating on how great dancers
place their feet, how they hear the music, how they surrender into the
embrace. Go to the milongas and watch them watch!!! They are there, men and
women, watching every day. These are things that are absorbed with time and
thought. They are things that only a very few teachers worldwide can
teach. Do we want to lose the lessons of the community that created this
dance, that developed customs surrounding it that they, the creators,
believe enhance their art? Do we want to miss the unique spirit of the
milonga? We can decide whether we want to modify our tangos, but we have to
understand what the tango is to those who LIVE it first. And to do this we
need to respect the milonga community and its rules, not intervene in it
with our rules.
And respect implies that we should not expect dancers to prostitute
themselves just because we come from a rich nation and they do not. Yes,
some WILL prostitute themselves: many people in Argentina are desperate --
do we want to take advantage of their desperation? Because dancers in the
milonga watch absolutely everything, they will finally know who is dancing
for pay and who is dancing because they have paid. People who resort to
this will finally find that they are creating for themselves anew the old
role of the hideous "American" who believes that anything can be bought for
money, including beauty and souls.
In the milonga, be attentive, be responsive, smile, sit up straight, be
respectful and courteous -- move and dress accordingly, and you will
eventually be asked to dance. And WATCH -- they are watching you watching,
and they know that is the sign of a serious dancer. In life, nothing truly
wondrous happens in just a few hours.
Julie Taylor
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:10:45 -0700
From: RM <rmenna @JOURNALIST.COM>
Subject: Tango Violinists
Thanks to all who responded to my request for suggestions re tango
violinists. I thought I would share the compiled list with you all. Now I
just have to locate all of these extraordinary violinists' recordings!
Robert
- Gidon Kremer especially the new "4 seasons" and "Hommage ` Piazzolla"
Preview at: http://dencity.com/metestudio/mete_astor_audio.htm
- Antoni Agri, one of the early violonists of Piazzolla (the first quintet),
esp. "Agri Saluda a Piazolla"
http://www.musicaeninternet.com.ar/musicos/agri.htm and
http://www.piazzolla.org/works2/songs.html
- Fernando Suarez Paz of Tanguardia, a quartet. Preview at:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jean-marc.fouche/le_disque.htm
- Piazzola with Fernando Suarez Paz, "La Camorra: La Soledad de una
provocacion apasionada"
- Piazzola, "New Tango: Tango Zero Hour (Nuevo Tango: Hora Zero)"
- Piazzola, The Rough dancer and the Cyclical Night (Tango Apasionada)
- Ruben D'Artagnan Gonzalez, "Tangos by Ruben D'Artagnan Gonzalez"
- Elvino Vardaro who played violin with Astor Piazzolla's Quintet and Octet,
"A. Piazzolla" released in 1988 by Music Hall (MH 10.003-2)
- Austin-based group called Tosca
- two violinists as part of a sextet: "The Fabulous Tango Collection" by I
Salonisti recorded in 1984 and re-released in 1998 by BMG/RCA (09026
63135-2)
- Alfredo Gobbi "El violin romantico del Tango", 1947-1953 (EB-63) and
Alfredo Gobbi "Instrumentales Inolvidables" (ADBG349)
- Enrique Francini
- Edgardo Donato
- the De Caro recordings
- Salgan Quinteto Real
- Francini's recordings (rare)
- Tiempos Viejos of Tango Real Quartett
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 21:16:29 +0000
From: "~DANCE MORE TANGO~" <24tango @BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: ALONE IN MECCA
Greetings to the list,
I can't tell you how sad I felt when I read Steve Hoffmans post
about his trip to BA. How is this possible? To travel to a city where
so many share the same passion for tango and not have any contact
with others, or make friends, and to dance only once or twice. I
wonder if Steve did not make opportunities for himself....In every
milonga there is a bar where the single men hang out, or a section
where they sit. By introducing yourself to the host of the milonga
they are more than helpful in seating you in the proper area, or
directing you to the "single" area. And it is a plus if you speak spanish.
Another thing I might suggest for singles traveling to BA, whether
it be ladies or men, is to perhaps stay in one of the many apartments
now available for visiting tangueros/as. There you have the
comraderie of the house, meeting other dancers from all over
the world, and usually the owner of the apartment is a dancer
who will guide you through the labrynth of the milonga scene,
introducing you around. This is certainly a much better alternative
than spending 2 weeks alone in BA.
And to reiterate what Steve said, yes ladies, there is a lot of
competition at the milongas. Age, weight and mode of dress
can make or break your evening. However, I found that age
is not as big a factor as most people would think if you have
a grip on the other two and a good attitude. Even being a
great dancer is not always an issue, since the men are
always willing to help you along and the teachers always
ready to press a business card into your hand. Ladies that ask
my advice on how to dress I always answer, short, black
and sassy, and forget the tango hair.
warm regards,
norma
www.dancemoretango.com
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 00:12:58 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: buying dancers and the spirit of the milonga
Julie, I agree with you completely. Paying for dance partners is like
prostitution in many ways. I too think that "it is deeply reprehensible.
And it will boomerang on those who use it." The following is also quite true
"Because dancers in the milonga watch absolutely everything, they will
finally know who is dancing for pay and who is dancing because they have
paid." The only thing that the buyer will ultimately get is the reputation
of being a *gil*.
Why does anybody want to experience rejection and loneliness in Bs As? Save
your money and time and experience more familiar treatment right here in the
good old USA. Sure, breaking in a new tango scene can be just as hard here
as in Buenos Aires, but it can actually be accomplished in less time and for
considerably less money. Although one can not find as many excellent
*milongueros* here as in Mecca, there are lots of good dancers (many are
excellent) in the USA who will be happy to dance with visitors or *new
faces*. At least that is true right here in Atlanta. All that is needed is a
bit of social skill and an outgoing, friendly attitude.
Here in the USA, most women are not competing against impossibly slender,
young and beautiful women dressed in see-through skirts and blouses. Most
guys are not competing against expert, world class, young, handsome and much
sought after stars. If one does not want the hard work and heartache of
breaking in the "tango scene" of Buenos Aires, try visiting the many tango
scenes in the USA (or whatever other country you live in). Any tanguero or
tanguera who wants to visit Atlanta will be welcome and accepted by us here.
Do not hesitate to post to the list or email me directly. I will be happy to
extend our hospitality to them.
If one does not wish to *pay for escort service* or *special guided tours*
in Buenos Aires, or risk rejection and frustration, one can opt for an
easier and less expensive alternative. Some people in the list have posted
about the idea of hosting tango dance events for people from out of town.
That is a nice idea but even it never becomes reality, it is always
possible to reach out to the tango people in this forum and make links and
contacts that will serve to ease the transition and break the ice, so to
speak, in any USA tango scene.
Personally, I love Buenos Aires and I wish that the air pollution was not
such a heath hazard there. I would really consider living in Buenos Aires
except for that. I also think that there is nothing like the tango world in
Buenos Aires, but what many people say is true. It can be very discouraging
and time consuming to break into the milongas there. For some of us visitors
who have limited time is well night impossible to break in the tango scene.
I personally would not pay anybody to dance with me in some underhanded
attempt at getting some type of "milonga credentials". I do not mind paying
for tango lessons but that is as far as I'm willing to go. The thing to
remember is that breaking into the Buenos Aires tango scene is like breaking
into *any* clique or club scene in the USA or anywhere else. In most places
of the USA, we (tango aficionados) are small enough numbers to treasure and
welcome most new faces or visiting dancers. You do not need to *pay your
dues* or *rent a milonguero*. You also do not need to stay in any particular
"tango house" to curry favor and gain acceptance. Just contact almost any
one of us in the tango-L. I bet you will be pleasantly surprised, accepted
and get lots of dances.
Sincerely,
Manuel
www.tango-rio.com
Original Message -----
From: Julie Taylor <jtaylor @RICE.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 6:11 PM
Subject: buying dancers and the spirit of the milonga
> Tangueros,
>
> in the context of my twenty years in Argentina -- yes, TWENTY -- let me
> explain why I find deeply disturbing a suggestion that hiring milongueros
> in Buenos Aires is a neutral practice. It is not neutral; it is deeply
> reprehensible. And it will boomerang on those who use it.
>
> Those who resort to hiring a partner for something that should be a deeply
> shared and improvised experience will find that they can never find the
> magic of the milonga, when it comes together in those moments of
> spontaneous camaraderie and awe at the rare occurrence of great dancing by
> chance. And people who resort to buying a dancer will miss out on all
the
> subtleties of dance and unique social relations that they could drink in
as
> they sit quietly and watch the people who have been drinking in milongas
> for lifetimes. Milongueros do not learn the tango by dancing constantly
> for years. They learn by watching and concentrating on how great dancers
> place their feet, how they hear the music, how they surrender into the
> embrace. Go to the milongas and watch them watch!!! They are there, men
and
> women, watching every day. These are things that are absorbed with time
and
> thought. They are things that only a very few teachers worldwide can
> teach. Do we want to lose the lessons of the community that created this
> dance, that developed customs surrounding it that they, the creators,
> believe enhance their art? Do we want to miss the unique spirit of the
> milonga? We can decide whether we want to modify our tangos, but we have
to
> understand what the tango is to those who LIVE it first. And to do this
we
> need to respect the milonga community and its rules, not intervene in it
> with our rules.
>
> And respect implies that we should not expect dancers to prostitute
> themselves just because we come from a rich nation and they do not. Yes,
> some WILL prostitute themselves: many people in Argentina are
desperate --
> do we want to take advantage of their desperation? Because dancers in the
> milonga watch absolutely everything, they will finally know who is dancing
> for pay and who is dancing because they have paid. People who resort to
> this will finally find that they are creating for themselves anew the old
> role of the hideous "American" who believes that anything can be bought
for
> money, including beauty and souls.
>
> In the milonga, be attentive, be responsive, smile, sit up straight, be
> respectful and courteous -- move and dress accordingly, and you will
> eventually be asked to dance. And WATCH -- they are watching you
watching,
> and they know that is the sign of a serious dancer. In life, nothing truly
> wondrous happens in just a few hours.
>
>
> Julie Taylor
>
End of TANGO-L Digest - 7 May 2000 to 8 May 2000 (#2000-125)
************************************************************