The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 31 Mar 2000
to 1 Apr 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 31 Mar 2000 to 1 Apr 2000 (#2000-88)
There are 8 messages totalling 505 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. why CITA? (2)
2. Food (was: Warning - thefts) in Buenos Aires
3. Expensive teachers and learning to dance
4. Good Barrio, Bad Barrio
5. Whose Tango (Prejudices)?
6. Food! 'The biggest absurdity game'
7. The Tao of Tango
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:26:34 +0200
From: Peter Niebert <Peter.Niebert @IMAG.FR>
Subject: Re: why CITA?
Silvia Borelli writes:
> >===== Original Message From Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM> =====
> Why take 10 classes a day, spend all your
> >free time with CITA participants (no offense intended as to the company
> >of people)?
>
> Actually, it was only 4 classes (out of 24 choices) a day, but nobody was
> forced to take them all, and in fact, many people adjusted their schedules as
> the week went on.
You could say that more clearly, I believe. 4 classes of 90 minutes
makes six hours, add six hours of ball, add 6 hours of sleep (no time
for more), leaves six hours for other aspects of life, for instance
feeling the pain in your feet and knees while you eat. Oh, forgot to
mention the WALKING (ouch) through the city of BA. After a week, what
you could really need is vacation :-)
In short, the "4 classes per day" is an "eat as much as you want from
our salad bar for only $14.99" offer. As such, I maintain that it is
expensive.
I did not doubt that many of you had a good time.
Best wishes to all of you,
Peter
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:31:31 -0600
From: "kata @pitton.com" <kata @PITTON.COM>
Subject: Re: Food (was: Warning - thefts) in Buenos Aires
Tocaya,
It's too bad you managed to find only the worst of porten~o food.
Obviously, as a tourist you don't have the advantage of a kitchen unless
you rent an apartment. For at-home meals, there's often salad, and fresh
fruit is a common dessert. But eating out in Baires can be fun, healthy and
tasty.
Many places have chicken on the menu, so beef isn't the only choice. A lot
of the Spanish restaurants have seafood. There are some neighborhood family
eateries with incredible salad bars, as good as any you'll find in the
US. And unlike Mexico and many countries in Latin America, the food and
water in Buenos Aires are clean and safe. The elegant Mirasol in Pto
Madero has a fabulous carrot salad which was one of many on the menu. And
most of the lunch specials I've had in Capital include a vegetable side
dish -- palm hearts, grilled zucchini, etc. And you can always ask for a
salad, though it will be plain and dressing will be vinegar and oil. The
big roasted red peppers (morrones) with a little olive oil are yummy. I'm
from an town settled by Italians, so I'm pretty picky when it comes to
pasta. I've been taken out to dinner at a couple of Italian places with
great pasta dishes. I love the pizza a la piedra there -- I have yet to
have a bad pizza in BsAs. Many places have fruit salad or seasonal fruit on
the menu. Now, I will admit, my favorite empanada stand where all the
taxistas go has 3 kinds of fried empanadas, and that's about it -- a
porten~o version of a greasy-spoon. But in general there's a variety of
food there.
Buenos Aires is full of "foreign" food -- Oriental, Kosher, Mexican,
Mid-Eastern, Spanish, you name it. (There's even a yanqui place called the
Kansas Grill !) I thought I had had almost everything there, but I've
never seen anything like gravy or sauce on a steak down there, so I'm not
sure what you ordered. I'm surprised you liked the pastries -- many of
them are made with lard. But they do have great names, like "bolas de
fraile". For breakfast, I prefer a sugar comma: toast with lots of dulce
de leche.
I hope you'll go back to Buenos Aires. And I'm sure that any of us on this
list who are familiar with the city would be happy to give you
recommendations about where to eat, stay, etc. I also hope that the CITA
organizers will get some constructive feed back -- it sounds like they
didn't offer enough information about safety, food, etc.
Buen provecho,
Kate
(la de Kansas)
PS
When you go back, if you like "totin" (aka tinto, red wine), try a Malbec
aged in oak. And try the sambayon flavor ice cream.
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:19:28 +0200
From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Bjarne_J=F8rgensen?= <bjarnerj @WANADOO.DK>
Subject: Expensive teachers and learning to dance
Hello everyone
In my opinion what you need to be a good dancer is awareness of the music
and control of your body. The best way to learn these things is NOT by
taking a lot of dance lessons. It is by listening to the music again and
again and all the time. When you work, when you eat, when you make love etc.
And it is by practicing alone and with partners.
My advise to anyone who find the prices of tango lessons too expensive is to
practice what you allready can do and listen to a lot of tango music. Then
eventually take a couple of lessons and not necessarily with the wellknown
and most expensive teachers.
Cheers
Bjarne
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:55:31 -0500
From: Nitin Kibe <nkibe @WORLDBANK.ORG>
Subject: Good Barrio, Bad Barrio
Greetings, List. Very enjoyable posts in the last few days and thanks to the
posters.
Questions: some referred to bad barrios (e.g. Once, 1462 Humberto Primer, etc.).
How does one tell bad barrios from good ones in Bs As? From the point of view
of a short term tango oriented visitor, what difference does it make in a
practical sense?
I have been to 1462 HP and also to, for example, La Viruta/Estrella at 1366
Armenia. Certainly the surroundings of the second seemed glossier/less rundown
than those of the first, but 1462 HP did not trigger any sense of disquiet or
alarm. The danger signs in the urban US or I daresay central London (empty
streets, groups of (young) men loitering, drunk or disorderly behaviour,
barred/broken windows, graffiti, litter, broken pavements with weeds growing,
unkempt yards, too many liquor/"adult"/check cashing/food takeaway stores, etc.)
did not seem to be present around the milongas in Bs As, adjusting for
differences in wealth and general differences in societies (e.g. barred windows
are relatively unusual in the US, so raise a red flag, but in a country where
they are common, they would not trigger a similar response).
If anything, I was pleasantly surprised to see couples, not just single males,
going about their lives at 3 am plus and walks back to the hotel from Club
Espanol were uneventful.
Good wishes.
Nitin Kibe
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:15:32 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Whose Tango (Prejudices)?
Drs. Julie Taylor and Sergio Suppa have both given very thoughtful
replies to my iconolastic (and I hope thought-provoking) posting. I
also received several thoughtful private replies. I feel both
corrected and vindicated at the same time.
I think there is an element of truth in what I wrote. With a revival
in its popularity, some Argentines who did not learn to dance tango in
their youth, and took painstaking steps to avoid being thought of as
low-life milongueros throughout most of their lives, rushed to embrace
tango. Some now think themselves as milongueros (who rival Fabian
Salas in skill) despite only a few years on the dance floor. What I
wanted to point out is that some of these newly christened milongueros
had not walked many miles. In exaggerating this element of truth, I
perhaps lessened its truthfulness.
A friend wrote to me:
>I still emphasize the importance of BsAs when it comes to
>authenticity of the dance. I think it is precisely those 2000-4000
>old milongueros that make the difference.
>Authenticity is a curious thing, and while many social dancers
>outside of Argentina have better technical skills than Argentine
>social dancers, there are still some really important things about
>tango in its native land that are difficult if not impossible to
>recreate outside.
As Julie Taylor wrote:
>[T]ango echoes in turn with historical twists and turns of human
>destiny in the form of Argentine lives. And the dance, when
>Argentines dance it for their own purposes within their own lives,
>has an intensity like nothing else. The stakes are a vulnerable,
>precarious identity in a country that was colonized several times
>over and remains more than ever at the mercy of the whim of more
>powerful nations. ... As I have said elsewhere, for Argentines
>dancing their tango, the genre as they know it in Buenos Aires is
>different from the tango abroad in particular ways: the personal
>search is deeper, the commitment complete, the transcendence of
>another order. And the stakes are very, very high.
I did not intend to deny that tango speaks to the Argentine heart and
soul in a way that someone who has not lived as an Argentine might not
appreciate. Perhaps, however, those of us who are drawn to tango and
stay with it even though we are not Argentine find that tango speaks
to our heart and soul in the same ways it speaks to the Argentine. I
cannot answer.
What I intended to say was that simply being Argentine does not confer
an expertise in technical tango skills or in teaching tango. As any
of the older milongueros will tell you, expertise is achieved only
through walking your miles. Strangely enough, some of the Argentines
most jealous of tango's heritage seem to have little skill at dancing
or teaching it. The Argentines who dance and teach the best seem to
be the one's most willing to share their national heritage with the
rest of us.
--Steve de Tejas
Stephen Brown, Ph.D.
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:00:25 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Food! 'The biggest absurdity game'
Somebody writes: I did not like the food when I was in Argentina and I get
the same sensation as an American would if after visiting the USA I would
say " I found New York to be a small town, California is situated in the
eastern part of the continent, I saw very few cars in Los Angeles". I get
the feeling that we are supposed to play a game to see who can say the
biggest absurdity of all. If I went to the USA and only ate at Mc Donals's I
could get back home with the idea that Americans only eat French fries,
hamburgers, and chicken nuggets.
Inexpensive restaurants line the streets , or bars that specialize in
"Minutas", the Argentinean equivalent of fast food. Meals that are prepared
in a few minutes. There you can have steaks, milanesas, salads, potatoes,
flan, peaches (natural), coffee and depending on the house a few more
things.
I go out to eat almost every day, my favorite restaurant is a self service
that has (lets see if I can remember), Melon and prociuto, pork, hors
d'oevres, ham, salame, bondiola, a cheese table, octopus, squid, beans,
potato salad, Russian salad, about twenty different ingredients to make your
salad (carrots, cabbage, lettuce, eggs, scarola, spinach, Swiss chard,
celery, heart of palm, beets, alfalfa sprouts, etc), lemon, vinegar or about
three different oils (olive, corn, sunflower); then the Chinese part with
all the usual food, the parrilla (grill) with chiken, beef,chorizos and
sausage, pork, salmon, trout, and other fish), Spanish Paella, shrimps,
clams, Italian pasta, spaghetti, ravioli, gnoquis, capelletis, pizza,
polenta, then desserts, a variety of cakes, flan, fruit fresh and natural
(canned type), ice creams, coffee or tea. Wine, beer, or sodas. All this for
U$S 8,00.
You can find in Argentina the same food you have in any other place, since
this country is one of the great food producers of the world. You find
different cuisine because there are immigrants from all over. During the
last celebration of Immigrants day there were more than 60 communities
represented. Some from as far as Mogolia and Chechenia.
There might be few things you cannot find here, the only one I can think of
is different salad dressings, oil and vinegar are prefered. I dare to say
that everything tastes better because it is brought to markets on a daily
bases, fruit and produce ripe on the plants rather than in deposits like in
other countries.
But then I've known Americans that get dissapointed when they do not find
McDonald's. I do not blame anybody for having any type of personal taste. It
bothers me slightly when people say absurdities.
Next time I read about our bad food I will simply answer with... I think
that the USA is a very small country, it has no blacks, people there do not
like cars, I could not find a hamburger... :-)
Coming here and not finding good food is like going to New York and not
finding the Statue of Liberty.
Have a good digestion.
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:44:48 EST
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: The Tao of Tango
This month in the Yoga Journal (March / April issue) page 216, is a very
interesting article, very beautifully written by a lady from Chicago who
teaches hatha(yoga)
it is her description of her feeling that she feels when dancing the Tango,
and how they relate to Yoga.
The title is "The Tao of Tango"
written by Deirdre Guthrie
I would write out the article, but that would only start everyone else to do
the same for every magazine article on tango everyone finds. Also, without
the magazines permission, there may also be legal reason I shouldn't.
I would like to ask if Ms. Guthrie, or if any one knows her personally. To
ask her to find out the magazine web page and address for her article so
everyone interested my go to it and read it.
In not, any person wishing a copy of the article, may mail me privately, and
I would be happy to send you a copy.
I am
Tim Pogros (TimmyTango)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:56:51 -0500
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: why CITA?
Dear list!
Thank you for your many responses and good thoughts.
I think you understood my point: if you went to CITA, great! Remember
the best there, forget the money spent, that is over!
I went to BsAs by myself, last August. I took private lessons (for much
less money), workshops, and went to different milonga every night after
going for long walks in the city. I felt that I was a part of Argentine
tango. Technique is not something that comes from one lesson or one
dance with a STAR! Neither does the feeling. It is a slow process. Until
tango music, movement (especially for a woman - graceful), and yes, some
sequences, are internalized, one can take 20 lessons per day, yet,
he/she won't dance tango well.
On a bright note: people are responding more positively about CITA. It
was your vacation, friends. Do not overshadow it with the negative
thoughts! Happy memories keep us happy!
Well, since I am not Nabokov, not even my own grandmother who was
perfectly fluent in 7 languages, I better stop here.
Eugenia
Lucas, Linda wrote:
>
> Dear Eugenia:
>
> I have gone twice to CITA. The first year there were many problems several
> of which were not corrected the second year. As a teacher you know that you
> cannot guarantee a gender balanced class unless you have a prearranged
> partner for the class. I fortunately took many technique classes so it
> didn't impact me as much not having a partner. But there were many women
> (particularly older women) that spent much of their time watching others
> take class.
>
> The CITA milongas were a nightmare. The seating was primarily set aside for
> the friends of the organizers so you were expected to stand for hours (in
> heels). On the worst nights I was made to stand outside because they would
> not open the doors on time. I don't expect the milonga or show to start on
> time but they could open the doors so people who have been dancing all day
> could sit down. The shows were spectacular and the technique classes
> absolutely wonderful. These classes were not overly crowded because most
> people don't like to concentrate on technique.
>
> Having studied dance since I was 4 years old I know you cannot take 4
> classes a day without causing damage to your body...most new tango dancers
> don't comprehend this and are trying to get their money's worth. The
> bottom line is I will definitely go back to BA on my own. I can easily
> arrange classes for myself, dance at the local milongas and if I am their
> during CITA, buy tickets to any performances I wish to see. That way I can
> have the best of both worlds.
>
> Best Wishes
>
> Linda Lucas
> International Union of Bricklayers
> & Allied Craftworkers
> llucas @bacweb.org
> 202 383 3182
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eugenia Spitkovsky [mailto:euginas @EROLS.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 10:39 PM
> To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: why CITA?
>
> "the authentic athmosphere and excitement of Buenos Aires milongas
> cannot be duplicated anywhere in the world."
>
> Silvia is absolutely right! Why take 10 classes a day, spend all your
> free time with CITA participants (no offense intended as to the company
> of people)? (I understand people took so many classes, they were tired
> and did not go out to dance in BsAs). Why pay to go to the beautiful
> Buenos Aires, the cradle of tango, and not partake in its culture?
> Just the atmosphere of native milonga makes one want to dance the way
> real, live, common Argentinians do: simple, to the music, and with the
> heart.
>
> Be honest, CITA participants! How many steps of those shown in classes
> did you learn? How many of these steps will you use in your dancing? How
> many of you will perform tango steps you acquired from the stage?
>
> CITA is a good way to support tango in Argentina. If we practice a few
> steps we know in milongas at home REGULARLY is what will make us better
> dancers. Dancing with our hearts will make us TANGO dancers.
>
> As to the steps: there are so many video tapes, very reasonably priced
> if you use rewinding a lot (and one should). We have many touring
> teachers all over the world. Learn at home from them if money is an
> issue. Now, the value of a great trip and vacationing with people who
> share your tango obsession cannot be underestimated! IT IS WORTH ANY
> MONEY. If you decided to go, it was your decision, true?
>
> My disclaimer is for inappropriate use of English articles: we do not
> have them in Russian. I am sure there are other errors: beg your
> forgiveness, list!
>
> Eugenia
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Eugenia:
>
> I have gone twice to CITA. The first year there were many problems
> several of which were not corrected the second year. As a teacher you
> know that you cannot guarantee a gender balanced class unless you have
> a prearranged partner for the class. I fortunately took many
> technique classes so it didn't impact me as much not having a partner.
> But there were many women (particularly older women) that spent much
> of their time watching others take class.
>
> The CITA milongas were a nightmare. The seating was primarily set
> aside for the friends of the organizers so you were expected to stand
> for hours (in heels). On the worst nights I was made to stand outside
> because they would not open the doors on time. I don't expect the
> milonga or show to start on time but they could open the doors so
> people who have been dancing all day could sit down. The shows were
> spectacular and the technique classes absolutely wonderful. These
> classes were not overly crowded because most people don't like to
> concentrate on technique.
>
> Having studied dance since I was 4 years old I know you cannot take 4
> classes a day without causing damage to your body...most new tango
> dancers don't comprehend this and are trying to get their money's
> worth. The bottom line is I will definitely go back to BA on my
> own. I can easily arrange classes for myself, dance at the local
> milongas and if I am their during CITA, buy tickets to any
> performances I wish to see. That way I can have the best of both
> worlds.
>
> Best Wishes
>
> Linda Lucas
> International Union of Bricklayers
> & Allied Craftworkers
> llucas @bacweb.org
> 202 383 3182
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eugenia Spitkovsky [mailto:euginas @EROLS.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 10:39 PM
> To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: why CITA?
>
> "the authentic athmosphere and excitement of Buenos Aires milongas
> cannot be duplicated anywhere in the world."
>
> Silvia is absolutely right! Why take 10 classes a day, spend all your
> free time with CITA participants (no offense intended as to the
> company
> of people)? (I understand people took so many classes, they were tired
>
> and did not go out to dance in BsAs). Why pay to go to the beautiful
> Buenos Aires, the cradle of tango, and not partake in its culture?
> Just the atmosphere of native milonga makes one want to dance the way
> real, live, common Argentinians do: simple, to the music, and with the
>
> heart.
>
> Be honest, CITA participants! How many steps of those shown in classes
>
> did you learn? How many of these steps will you use in your dancing?
> How
> many of you will perform tango steps you acquired from the stage?
>
> CITA is a good way to support tango in Argentina. If we practice a few
>
> steps we know in milongas at home REGULARLY is what will make us
> better
> dancers. Dancing with our hearts will make us TANGO dancers.
>
> As to the steps: there are so many video tapes, very reasonably priced
>
> if you use rewinding a lot (and one should). We have many touring
> teachers all over the world. Learn at home from them if money is an
> issue. Now, the value of a great trip and vacationing with people who
> share your tango obsession cannot be underestimated! IT IS WORTH ANY
> MONEY. If you decided to go, it was your decision, true?
>
> My disclaimer is for inappropriate use of English articles: we do not
> have them in Russian. I am sure there are other errors: beg your
> forgiveness, list!
>
> Eugenia
End of TANGO-L Digest - 31 Mar 2000 to 1 Apr 2000 (#2000-88)
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