The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 30 Mar 2000
to 31 Mar 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 30 Mar 2000 to 31 Mar 2000 (#2000-87)
There are 20 messages totalling 1160 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Narrow Minds / Japanese people and US
2. Cheap stay in BA!
3. CITA 2000 (2)
4. Tango superstition & US vs Europe
5. manners
6. Tango superstition
7. Food (was: Warning - thefts) in Buenos Aires
8. Narrow Minds
9. why CITA? (4)
10. Were the CITA's hours hard and tiring???
11. Whose Heritage is Argentine Tango? (2)
12. Use of English as lingua franca (2)
13. Contrition
14. Tango prejudices.
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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:52:08 +0200
From: Peter Niebert <Peter.Niebert @IMAG.FR>
Subject: Re: Narrow Minds / Japanese people and US
Charles Roques writes:
> Regarding the posting by Pino Dangielo of May 29.
>
> Pino,
> Your lack of writing skills and poor understanding of english syntax,
> sentence structure, incorrect usage of gerunds and infinitives, and unity of
> ideas in a paragraph might be excused. Perhaps even your arrogance. But your
> vituperative fault finding, anger and prejudices, which seemed to cover the
> entire gamut from gross generalisations about the Japanese and Americans or
> Argentines to censorious complaints about all the insufficiently intelligent
> (i.e. not what you want to read) commentary contributed to the list is
> offensive. If most of this is crap to you, don't bother to sign on. [...]
OK, Charles, you are offended.
But what did Pino actually do? He wrote an external perception of the
US that is - to some degree - shared by many people in the world. That
is, the USA at this time in history dominate the world in terms of
economy, military and culture, and we do not always like that. This
list uses (American) English because this is now the language for
international communication. And this again is due to the
aforementioned US domination. Charles, criticising foreigner's English
is really ridiculous, unless you do it in his mother tongue. Got that?
Europeans have an inferiority complex versus the USA, don't you see
that? You should not take a personal offence in that! Guess what, as
a young German whose parents were kids in 1939, received me as
external perception of my country throughout the world? I had to learn
to accept that without feeling bad.
***
I, too, see the emergence of events like C.I.T.A. with prices about
twice as high as in corresponding events in France and Spain and with
80% (somewhere I read this about CITA 1999) of the participants from
the US with mixed feelings. It is good for the BA Tango professionals,
for sure, but it reflects - yes - more the wealth distribution in the
world than the passion for Tango. And there is this secret fear: After
economy, military, and the movies, will the US now also dominate
Tango?! [Well, I don't believe so ...]
C.I.T.A. has been designed for US tangueros. That is why they like it,
that is why they pay for it. It is an event of superlatives for the
people from the country of superlatives. The language of CITA
advertisements reveals Gustavo Naveira's perception of the USA.
Of course, it is not only the US and Japan, there are also people from
Europe involved in the development of Tango tourism. Where, as Manuel
correctly pointed out, rich does not mean really rich, but willing to
spend high amounts of money for this. Germans - rich or poor - for
instance, typically spend a fair amount of their savings for
tourism. It should not surprise that the German Tangueros show up
world wide. It does not mean that these people are rich in Germany,
but they do come from a rich country and culture.
My two centimes worth,
Peter
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:13:30 +0200
From: Pino Dangiola <pino.dangiola @SWIPNET.SE>
Subject: Cheap stay in BA!
Wojtek Baginski wrote:
"Hola,
I've read your post, which I liked very much, and I thought, you could
help me a bit. I am also a student, not very rich (quite as for Polish
student, but Argentina is very very expensive for me). I decided to =
spend
my holidays in BsAs. I've been working all the year and I am still =
working
and i'm hoping for earning enough money".
Ok here it is: Pinos travelguide for inexpensive stay in BA, but people =
I have to study also.=20
So Wojtek Baginski and all of you who wants to get the best value for =
your pesos try this:=20
What part of city do you recommend (not expensive
and not very risky), and where to find people, who hire rooms in their
houses?=20
Living:=20
- Well not expensive usually means risky.=20
I spent some time in Once, bad barrio but close to all the milongas =
because it is close to Plaza Mizere which is more or less between =
Corrientes and Rivadavia at 2500, which means short distance to all the =
milongas. Here I could find an apartment with 2 bedrooms and nice =
standard for about 13 dollar a day meaning 6,5 if you split it someone. =
The neighbourhood is not nice but hey you sleep all day if you dance all =
night.=20
-Check other postings from the list.=20
-Try to find an intercambio. Someone who wants to come to your country. =
I found 2!!=20
So renting an apartment is usually much cheaper and taking in on a =
hotel. And usually much cleaner.=20
Do you know some teachers for people like me?=20
Classes y privates:=20
My suggestion for people who haven't danced for long is try to get many =
different teachers. It will be confusing but soon you will be able to =
select what you like and dot like. I was more selective and choose to =
take classes with: Gustavo N, Alexandra Martinjan, Julio Balmaceda y =
Corina de la Rosa and not enough with Gabriel y Natalia. For a beginner =
and intermediate these teachers are not necessary. ( Hey people I am =
trying to make this guy trip cheap). These people have there own classes =
and charge you for it. Usually not more then 10 dollar for group lesson, =
but they can be crowded and then they are hardly worth it. And more than =
100 dollar for privates. One way of getting cheap privates is asking =
someone you see at the milonga that dance well. Normally half of the =
good dancers (Argentineans) call them self teachers and by saying. Hey =
you look good when you dance cant you teach me, you might get privates =
for 20-30 dollars and they can be equal good for you as the expensive =
ones.=20
This is what I recommend. Because of the quality. This is were the =
"people" go!
So on Monday you go to Salong Canning on Scalabrini Ortiz 1331were =
Gabriel y Natalia is giving 3 hours of class for only 5 dollars. This =
might be the best value of all. It is usually crowded and the class is =
fast and there are a lot of good dancers there. But try. After there is =
a milonga with Los Cosos de al Lao, but hey you are already in and don't =
have to pay for the milonga so dance until they close.=20
Tuesday. Go to Club Almagro. They give classes before the milonga at =
21.00. You pay 6 bucks and you can dance the milonga after, which for me =
was the best on Tuesdays. Don't miss the thrilling experience of going =
to Catedral, only 15 meters from Almagro. The classes are not very good, =
but for not to advanced people they are ok.=20
Wen:=20
Go to La Viruta at Armenia 1366. They give classes from 21.00 and almost =
3 hours. 5 bucks and you can dance the milonga after. Luis is quite =
entertaining and speeds up the tempo and give you many things to think =
about.=20
Thursday:=20
You must go to Nino Bien, it is the best milonga in BA, but sadly the =
floor has become too slippery lately.=20
It is on Humberto Primo 1462. Bad Barrio. Be more than careful!!!!=20
Usually they charge 10 dollars for class and milonga, but lately they =
have charged 15 dollars. Well hell I paid it anyway. Julio Balmaceda y =
Corina was teaching and they are really good.=20
Friday:=20
No it gets worse to select. Try Torquato Tasso at Defensa 1575, =
sometimes with free live music. Small dancefloor. Here different =
teachers give classes for 6 dollars and you can stay for the milonga.=20
The best dancers go to La Viruta or as they call it on Fridays La =
Estrella, same address as above.=20
They give classes from 22 and the milonga starts at 23.30.=20
Saturday:=20
La Calesita is many people choice because it outdoors but the floor is =
bad. Needs to be tried. 5 bucks and you get class with it from 21.00. =
Class ok, not great.=20
Sunderland to see all the old ones! I am sorry but I dont like this =
place. It is a basketball court and the soundsystem is as old as there =
subte.=20
Or once again La Viruta tangoclass at 22.15 with milonga.=20
Sunday: Tasso has a free milonga.=20
Usually all of these milongas are crowded until 03.00 when you also can =
get in for free.=20
The time between 03.00-06.00 is the best time to dance. Before it is =
only milonguerostyle that counts and you are doing your ocho cortado =
many many times. This is the time when all the good dancers really come =
out. So dont go to bed too early.=20
When you are there in BA you pick up a ex of Tangauta or BA tango. They =
will guide you to the teachers.=20
Some are not in there like Alexandra Martinjan who is teaching at =
Colombres 119 on Monday, wen, and Friday. Very good classes especially =
for woman. You can also rent room to practice at Colombres 119 for only =
5 dollars per hour.=20
There are of course a NR of other places and classes. Some for free and =
some cheaper. I found these to be the best.=20
Also check up all the events that are free. Many concerts with great =
bands are free. I saw and danced to Sexteto Mayor, el Arranque, Sexteto =
Sur, Los Reyes etc.=20
#######Where to buy good but not very expensive shoes?=20
Well, dont go to Flabella, he makes good shoes but the seldom come. It =
happen to 2 different people when I was there. Same lies all the time. =
Dont go there.=20
Fattomano makes good shoes but seems to have lost faith or something. =
Really boring store and about 15-20 dollar more expensive.=20
My favourite is Deli=E9 at the NR 4833-7623 in Palermo, BA. She sold me =
nice suede shoes for 55 dollars that everybody else was taking 70-75 =
dollars for. I hope I get a discount next time.=20
Or go to Susana at 4854-2997, but she is getting a little bit to big in =
her head I think.=20
Both the last ones are in there homes/apartments.=20
The best shoes are of course the ones from J. Carlos, but that story you =
already know.=20
########## Is it possible to learn to dance in such period of time?=20
Well I danced almost 10 hours every day with excellent females. I think =
I improved my skills.=20
Dont hope too much on the milongas, the are crowded and you end up doing =
the same patterns all of the time losing a lot of other things. I did =
not dance milongas and some of the walses until 03.00 because it feel =
uncomfortable.=20
Your question is impossible to answer. It is all up to you. You have =
24-hour tango 7 days a week. You just need to find it.=20
My best advise is to find someone and to go to the practicas ( Monday =
and Friday, Cochabamba 444) of Gustavo and pay only 3 dollar to dance =
from 21.30 -01.30. If you dont get to dance you can always just sit and =
look and wonder. Many of the girls want this because they dont have =
anyone to practice with. Just ask. I practised with 3 different girls in =
one day in the dance studio. Go get them.=20
Bring videorecorder and film the figures. You will forget them =
otherwise.=20
Drink their water. It will be expensive to drink mineralwater all day. I =
did.=20
Food is not that expensive. Depends of what you eat of course. Many =
places have all you can eat including parilla for 3-4 dollars. Drinks =
not incl.=20
Avoid the cabs...take the bus or the metro. The metro usually closing =
right after you enter the milongs and open convenient when you go out at =
06.00. But walking is of course the cheapest. Live in Once and walk.=20
So the best advise I can give you if you dont seek a specific teacher is =
to take the classes before the milonga and you can get by the whole =
night (21.00-06.00) for only 5 dollars.=20
Have to study.=20
Sorry for all the syntax errors.=20
If you want to bitch me out please write in Swedish.=20
Pino Dangiola=20
Sweden=20
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:10:00 EST
From: Victor Crichton <victor_vsc @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: CITA 2000
Recently I have read postings on the list regarding the events and prices of
CITA. I would like to add my opinion.
First, the price of CITA. I am an organizer of Tango events here in
Florida. (not my profession, just my passion). Of course, my events are on
a much smaller scale than events like CITA or other week long gatherings.
Personally, I don't know how anyone can complain about CITA's price! If you
register early it is only $500. That is for an eight day event with six
days of classes, seven milongas, two full shows, exhibitions each night, two
great orchestras each night, around twenty of the best teachers, and more
class selection (144 total classes to chose from) than anywhere else I've
ever heard of.
I can only speak for the USA, but I can't even imagine what I would have to
charge to put on an event like CITA here. And if I could, I still couldn't
offer the history of Buenos Aires and its many milongas and other
attractions.
I can not speak for Gustavo Naviera but I can tell you that he rarely comes
to the US but travels a great deal to Europe. I don't think that he would
create an event aimed mainly at Americans. CITA was designed as an
international event and attracts people from all over the world. I
personally met people from Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Germany,
Japan, Canada, England, France, etc.
Yes, there certainly were people from the US. Not because we're rich, most
of us are just regular working people who save all year in order to make
this trip. Perhaps were lucky that it is possible to get a somewhat
reasonable air fare and that, relatively speaking, it's not too far. By
booking in advance and flying at an unpopular time my air fare was $500
round trip and my flight was only 8 hours. If I had to pay $1200 - $2000
and fly for 15 hours, perhaps I wouldn't chose to go either.
There are many factors that go into a personal decision as to whether to
attend an event or not but in the case of CITA, I think that their price is
very fair and should not be a reason for not going.
The other point about CITA that has come up is whether or not people enjoyed
it. This of course, is very personal. I must say that I enjoyed CITA a
great deal! I went there with the attitude that I was going to enjoy myself
and I did. Was it perfect? Of course not. Were there things that I would
have done differently? Of course. Did that stop me from enjoying myself?
Definitely not!
I enjoyed the classes, the beautiful class rooms, the teachers, the shows,
the orchestras, the exhibitions, the milongas, and mostly, I enjoyed the
many people that I met from all over the world.
I have attended both editions of CITA and will be back for the third. I
find it to be the best Tango gathering that I have been to and I believe
that Gustavo, Fabian, Vadim and all of their staff do an incredible job of
organizing and supervising a very large event with many teachers,
participants, and locations. I would recommend CITA to anyone that wants to
improve their Tango, attend a first class Tango event, and visit the
wonderful city of Buenos Aires. Not everyone will share my opinion about
CITA but remember, "You can't please all the people, all the time!"
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:01:44 +0100
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: CITA 2000
Victor,
I'm glad you took the time to write your input about the CITA, the prices,
etc. I realize that the CITA prices might be quite steep for the average
Argentine or even for the average American, but so is the cost of anything
of comparable value. I too organize events in Atlanta and they are in a much
smaller scale than CITA. Really, even if it were possible (for many reasons,
it is impossible), an event of those proportions in Atlanta would be much
more expensive.
Sure, things can always be improved but overall the CITA 2000 was very well
done. Even if one would not have 144 classes to choose from and six days of
events, the live music and shows alone would cost so much to stage here that
it would be prohibitive. As far as one's enjoyment of the event, it really
cannot be guaranteed. There are just too many factors that will affect each
person's experience. For instance, I ended up getting fairly sick with some
type of bronchitis. Of course, that really cut into my enjoyment of the
week. Also, the schedule is fairly taxing. With classes from 12:30 to 9:00
everyday for six days, and parties every night (except for one day of rest
in the middle), It really taxes the body. Sure the milongas were crowded and
some people did not get to dance as much as they wanted, but that can be the
case at any well attended milonga.
Look at it this way, considering the cost of lessons we've been discussing
lately, the $500 comes out to $83.33 per day for 4 classes of your choice
plus the milonga with live music and a show. Compare this with the cost of a
single $100 private lesson. Some of the classes we attended were very small
and we got a lot of individual attention. Also, the classes and events were
organized and planned around the needs of the foreign visitors and
translators were provided. Sure, you could find classes outside of CITA for
a little less but if you took 4 classes per day plus the milongas, you'd end
up paying quite a good sum. Anyway, you would be on your own and not likely
to find the variety of classes or the availability at the times offered by
CITA.
I think that CITA is a very good tango event and the advantages outweigh the
disadvantages by a huge margin. IMHO, it is a good value and a fine way to
enjoy tango, Bs As and other tangueros(as) from around the world.
Manuel
Original Message -----
From: Victor Crichton <victor_vsc @HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 3:10 PM
Subject: CITA 2000
> Recently I have read postings on the list regarding the events and prices
of
> CITA. I would like to add my opinion.
>
> First, the price of CITA. I am an organizer of Tango events here in
> Florida. (not my profession, just my passion). Of course, my events are
on
> a much smaller scale than events like CITA or other week long gatherings.
> Personally, I don't know how anyone can complain about CITA's price! If
you
> register early it is only $500. That is for an eight day event with six
> days of classes, seven milongas, two full shows, exhibitions each night,
two
> great orchestras each night, around twenty of the best teachers, and more
> class selection (144 total classes to chose from) than anywhere else I've
> ever heard of.
>
> I can only speak for the USA, but I can't even imagine what I would have
to
> charge to put on an event like CITA here. And if I could, I still
couldn't
> offer the history of Buenos Aires and its many milongas and other
> attractions.
<snip>
. Were there things that I would
> have done differently? Of course. Did that stop me from enjoying myself?
> Definitely not!
>
> I enjoyed the classes, the beautiful class rooms, the teachers, the shows,
> the orchestras, the exhibitions, the milongas, and mostly, I enjoyed the
> many people that I met from all over the world.
>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:53:54 -0500
From: Silvia Borelli <silvia.borelli @OPERAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango superstition & US vs Europe
>===== Original Message From "kata @pitton.com" <kata @PITTON.COM> =====
>The tango "Adios Muchachos" is said to bring bad luck.
The saying goes that many years ago, during a stage show, an orchestra began
playing "Adios Muchachos", and strange things happened, such as a female
dancer's dress coming apart at the seams, someone else falling down on stage,
etc...From that day on, none of the touring shows are willing to play the
song.
On another subject, it seems that there were many people from Italy at the
CITA event. Italy is not a rich country, is it? Maybe tango dancers in certain
European countries do have the money to go, but think that they have nothing
to learn from going to Buenos Aires?
People in the U.S., regardless of having more money than the Europeans in
general, are not as arrogant, and are driven to learn more and improve as much
as possible as Tango dancers. They save money by staying in inexpensive hotels
or renting apartments, but they want the best instruction the money can buy.
If the best teachers can't or don't come to their cities, the Americans are
willing to go to Buenos Aires, where the best can be found. Plus the authentic
athmosphere and excitement of Buenos Aires milongas cannot be duplicated
anywhere in the world.
Sincerely,
Silvia.
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:26:06 EST
From: Verena Faigle <VERENAV @AOL.COM>
Subject: manners
Hey whats happening?
Even if one (in this case Charles) is upset about somebody's posting, is
there really a need for being rude?
Imagine if this would be general behaviour on dance floors :-((
Can't we get a bit more humour and a bit less personal offens in this list?
cheers
Verena
PS: I know this is a MIME message, but I'm just too lazy to change the
program :-))
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:10:58 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw @MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tango superstition
Greetings list!
Silvia Borelli wrote:
>
> >===== Original Message From "kata @pitton.com" <kata @PITTON.COM> =====
> >The tango "Adios Muchachos" is said to bring bad luck.
>
> The saying goes that many years ago, during a stage show, an orchestra began
> playing "Adios Muchachos", and strange things happened, such as a female
> dancer's dress coming apart at the seams, someone else falling down on stage,
> etc...From that day on, none of the touring shows are willing to play the
> song.
The story I heard is that 'Adios Muchachos' is the last song performed
by Carlos Gardel before his untimely accidental death. Thus, those who
revere Gardel consider the irony to be much too strong to ignore. I
have no proof for any of this, BTW. Any independent confirmations?
Regards,
Frank in Minneapolis
_____________________________________________________________
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw @mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:05:50 -0800
From: Kate Withey <withey @SFO.COM>
Subject: Food (was: Warning - thefts) in Buenos Aires
> From: "kata @pitton.com" <kata @PITTON.COM>
>
> ... thrilled just to be in BsAs, experiencing the language and culture
that
> produced the tango. Plus, it's a beautiful city, the people are
> interesting, the food and wine can't be beat, and there's culture and
> Culture galore.
Begging to differ....
There are many great things about Bs As, but food is not among them.
Yes,
there's good meat,but what to accompany & complement it? What in the
way
of variety? In the month I was there, it seemed that every restaurant I
went to
might have photocopied the same menu: an unrelenting parade of greasy
heavy
meat & potatoes and pasty pastas with sauces reminiscent of Chef
Boy-ar-dee.
The worst sides of the German & Italian influences -- with a lot of dead
cows
thrown in. Admittedly, I stayed largely in the working-class
neighborhoods
(San Telmo), but even the most expensive steak I had at some big famous
restaurant (I forget the name) was drowned in a sauce that could have
been
canned gravy. American friends I knew who lived there lamented the
awful
food & lack of any international flavors (one told me there was exactly
one
Thai restaurant in the whole city).
OK, I'm from San Francisco -- one of the premier food cities in the
world --
but I'm hardly a "foodie" & rarely go to expensive restaurants. I'm
simply
used to having a wide variety of food available (probably cuisines of 20
countries within easy walking distance), all made with fresh local
ingredients.
Perhaps if you're from someplace (much) more rural, you'd find the food
there
exciting. Or perhaps I just somehow missed all the good food -- I'd be
happy
to be proved wrong next time I'm in town -- but I was severely
disappointed.
One bright note: breakfasts were great. You can easily find good
espresso &
delightful fresh pastries, which can't be said of a lot of north
American cities.
Overall, however, if Buenos Aires is ever to be the cosmopolitain city
it likes to
style itself, it's got a long way to go in the food department.
- Kate de San Francisco
(with apologies to the Argentines on the list for my insults)
"Great dancers are not great because of
their technique; they're great because
of their passion." - Martha Graham
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:04:30 -0500
From: Enrico Massetti <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Narrow Minds
Charles :
>Pino,
> Your lack of writing skills and poor understanding of english syntax,
> sentence structure, incorrect usage of gerunds and infinitives,
Dear Charles,
why are we using the English language to discuss tango? Shouldn't
we use "lunfardo" instead, or perhaps "castillano", or, maybe, "Italian"
or "French", that have such a big influence on lunfardo? If we did, we
would have a better understanding of the lyrics we all love to dance.
We would also have much shorter discussions, not a bad idea, at
times.
English is the second language for many of us, we are so nice to
use it instead of our own mother-language, and we do it out of
courtesy. So, please, don't pretend perfection in mastering your
language, specially from those of us, like Pino for which English
is not the second, but at least the third language, and seldom
spoken also.
Pino has been reading this list for at least a couple of years,
since when I met him at his restaurant in a cold Swedish winter
night, warmed only by the tango he was providing. I never saw
anything posted by him, and I don't understand why, when he
started posting, he did it in a way that can sound offensive to
almost anybody, I would suggest him to stick to the restaurant
business in Stockholm, and not to apply for a peace-keeping job
with the United Nations.
I know little about tango in Sweden, but the little I know is very
fascinating, like the TV tango movie I saw (spoken in Swedish, no
subtitles, but I understood the story anyway, and it was very sweet).
I was at the grand opening of the movie in Pino's restaurant, a
very nice event.
I also know that there is some sort of tango festival in Stockholm
every year in the summer, and it's a big event of European
dimension. I would like to know more about that. So I am sure would
some of us that plan their vacations around tango events.
So, Pino, please, don't feel rejected by the answers you got to your
postings (you deserved them!) and give us a second try. Thanks,
Enrico
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:38:59 -0500
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: why CITA?
"the authentic athmosphere and excitement of Buenos Aires milongas
cannot be duplicated anywhere in the world."
Silvia is absolutely right! Why take 10 classes a day, spend all your
free time with CITA participants (no offense intended as to the company
of people)? (I understand people took so many classes, they were tired
and did not go out to dance in BsAs). Why pay to go to the beautiful
Buenos Aires, the cradle of tango, and not partake in its culture?
Just the atmosphere of native milonga makes one want to dance the way
real, live, common Argentinians do: simple, to the music, and with the
heart.
Be honest, CITA participants! How many steps of those shown in classes
did you learn? How many of these steps will you use in your dancing? How
many of you will perform tango steps you acquired from the stage?
CITA is a good way to support tango in Argentina. If we practice a few
steps we know in milongas at home REGULARLY is what will make us better
dancers. Dancing with our hearts will make us TANGO dancers.
As to the steps: there are so many video tapes, very reasonably priced
if you use rewinding a lot (and one should). We have many touring
teachers all over the world. Learn at home from them if money is an
issue. Now, the value of a great trip and vacationing with people who
share your tango obsession cannot be underestimated! IT IS WORTH ANY
MONEY. If you decided to go, it was your decision, true?
My disclaimer is for inappropriate use of English articles: we do not
have them in Russian. I am sure there are other errors: beg your
forgiveness, list!
Eugenia
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:18:37 -0500
From: Enrico Massetti <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Were the CITA's hours hard and tiring???
Hi tangueros,
we have been more than one week after the CITA ended, and we poor souls
left at home did not have any comment on it from those lucky enough to go.
Now all of a sudden it's all a fight about food, cost of lesson, (I
understand
the lady complaining because she that was robbed..) but nobody tells us
anything about what?
About TANGO!
Was it good, was it bad, was it too much, was it not enough, who were the
orchestras that played live at the milongas? Where they good? Do they
sell DCs (possibly via Internet)?
Come on, please, the only thing I really understand is that this experience
must have been very exhausting, and you lucky tangueros/as are all stressed
out! I could have told you in advance, I personally cannot take 6 hours of
tango lesson, and then the milonga at night, and for an entire week without
being stressed out :-) !
Ciao,
Enrico
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:29:00 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Whose Heritage is Argentine Tango?
A perspective that some seem to take is that immersion in the culture
and dancing in Buenos Airs takes their dancing to new heights. This
perspective can be seen in organizers of tango tours and festivals, as
well as many postings to Tango-L and other discussion forums.
What seems to be conveniently ignored is tango's recent history. With
the exception of the old milongueros, who are 60+ years old, many
Argentines who dance and teach tango are relatively new to the dance.
Nearly all of the older dancers and professors returned to tango after
years of inactivity.
Tango nearly died. Guide books written for Buenos Aires ten years ago
talk about how tango was everywhere and nowhere. Music was to be
found, but little dancing. Many Argentines who are in their 40s and
50s have told me tango was the music of their parents, but their own
music was rock and roll.
Tango dancing was revived through the popularity of Tango Argentino in
Europe and the United States. Tango X 2 and Forever Tango also
contributed to reviving the popularity of tango.
Documentaries that are six to ten years old show Juan Carlos Copes
teaching tango in Buenos Aires to preserve the dance from disappearing
completely when he and the other older dancers died. Now some people
are acting like Copes is just a famous stage dancer who, along with
other stage dancers, contributed to a corruption of tango, because the
truth of tango is the way of the milonguero. The funny thing is that
Copes was a milonguero, who took up stage dancing, and is one of the
few who kept tango alive.
The last ten years has seen an explosion of tango as a social dance,
first in Europe, then the United States and Canada, and then
Argentina. Many Europeans, Canadians and Americans have been dancing
tango longer than the young and not-so-young Argentines who are
venturing abroad to teach it. Once again Argentines embraced tango
only after it found popularity abroad. (The first time was in the
early 1900s.) In addition, an Argentine friend of mine who is in his
40s and has danced tango for a few years has told me that he has not
learned to dance tango well because it will suggest that he is not
serious about his chosen profession and that dancing tango well is the
mark of being a low-life milonguero. I am not sufficiently
knowledgable to speculate why the Argentine character is such that
tango cannot embraced at home until it is reassuringly popular abroad.
I will venture to say, however, that tango is more an expression of
those who dance it than it is of Argentine culture. Yes, tango
originated in Argentina and Uruguay, but that history has very little
to do with why a Swede, German, Swiss, Parisian, Canadian, or American
dances tango. Nor, do I think that simply being an Argentine confers
expertise in tango as a birthright, although some seem to think
otherwise. As any of the older milongueros can tell you, expertise is
achieved only through the hard work of walking your miles.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:54:50 -0800
From: Michael Kern <mikey @WHIDBEY.NET>
Subject: Use of English as lingua franca
> My disclaimer is for inappropriate use of English articles: we do not
> have them in Russian. I am sure there are other errors: beg your
> forgiveness, list!
> Eugenia
Eugenia's entire post was well spoken and very much to the point. I just
want to comment on the quote above. I believe that some native English
speakers naturally do not like to see their language evolving so rapidly
toward less and less structure. Where I live on the west coast of the USA,
very many people that one meets in daily and commercial life are not native
speakers of English. They want to be understood, not to be perfect. It has
an effect on the way even native speakers use English; for many of us, it
becomes less structured. In any case, English is always changing, and in
America some of the most powerful groups, such as the media, deal
extensively in neologisms that would not pass muster in a University English
Class. It is a price we must pay for having the world language. We
Americans, as individuals, get a free ride, in that we do not absolutely
have to make the hard work to learn a foreign language to get along in the
world. It would be better if we did; but we can avoid it, and still succeed.
This is less true for speakers of other native tongues. For the most part,
in America, if you are bilingual or multilingual, you are not a native
Anglo!
In return, we must share our language, even share the development of it,
with many people who may not have anywhere near the same associations we
might have, from our Anglo-phonic educations.
I had the experience of being dropped in the Latin American bush, and
needing to learn quickly how to survive in Castellano. I will never forget
the kindness shown to me by people who gave me great leeway, because I was
reallly hard to understand! It is work to try to live in a language and
thought structure that is not your own! It makes you anxious, and somewhat
regressed.
Anyway, I think criticism of someone'e English is completely out of place on
the internet. I don't care how clumsy it is. And from my point of view, most
of what I read is very easy to understand. Way easier than it would be to
understand my Spanish! Not to mention my French. And there it stops. But
many posters from elsewhere are more or less fluent in 3, 4, or moe
languages. Bueno para ellos!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:31:19 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Contrition
Tango List,
After reading the responses to my post, I realize that responding impulsively
without thinking about the language I am using only aggravates the situation.
Sorry, but at times buttons will be pushed. No, the issue was not about the
command of language as much as a response to the perceived arrogance of the
writer. I shouldn't have criticized someone's use of language.
I was even reprimanded by tangoman! ;-). My apologies to all.
Charles Roques.
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:38:28 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Use of English as lingua franca
Original Message-----
From: Michael Kern <mikey @whidbey.net>
Date: Friday, March 31, 2000 12:51 AM
> I believe that some native English
>speakers naturally do not like to see their language evolving so
rapidly
>toward less and less structure.
It is all as if there is only one English. As far as I am concerned
there are many of them as there are speakers. I do not think
it is necessary to think that native english speakers are by birthright
better in their grammar(one could look at scores and their correlation
to native language- I have not looked - but I would not be too sure that
the ones with best scores are native english speakers).
If others speak bad english, it is degeneration. if one whose mother
tongue it is speaks bad english, it is evolution?
BTW, Nabakov, considered by many to be the greatest novelist
in english this century was a russian or for that matter if it is
not him but Joyce, then what he wrote is hardly in american english.
rajan.
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:03:18 -0500
From: Silvia Borelli <silvia.borelli @OPERAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: why CITA?
>===== Original Message From Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM> =====
Why take 10 classes a day, spend all your
>free time with CITA participants (no offense intended as to the company
>of people)?
Actually, it was only 4 classes (out of 24 choices) a day, but nobody was
forced to take them all, and in fact, many people adjusted their schedules as
the week went on.
>Be honest, CITA participants! How many steps of those shown in classes
>did you learn? How many of these steps will you use in your dancing? How
>many of you will perform tango steps you acquired from the stage?
>
Not only I learned a great number of new steps or combinations, but I improved
on everything that I knew beforehand. Only a few classes in "fantasy" Tango
were offered and even those classes were fun to attend. The master teachers
were hiding nothing from the students. They taught exactly what they practice
themselves on stage and on the milonga floor. It maybe difficult for some
people to imagine how much can one improve in 7 days, but if you go to Buenos
Aires, you will be shocked. Shocked with the reality that the level of dancers
in Buenos Aires is so much higher than in the rest of the world. But even one
week of instruction from the fantastic CITA teachers, improves you as a dancer
in leaps and bounds.
As for the excitement of the CITA milongas with their live orchestras and the
best of the local dancers attending every single night, it cannot be described
-it must be experienced. Just imagine the biggest dance floor in Buenos Aires
(Centro Region Leonesa), the powerful sound of the "Los Reyes del Tango"
playing "Felicia" in the D'Arienzo style, and yourself dancing with some local
milonguero who is guiding you around the floor with such ease that you don't
even have to open your eyes, but if you did, you would see right next to you
Pablo Veron dancing with Cecilia Gonzalez, and next to them, Robert Duvall
dancing with his fiancee, and next to them Tete with Silvia, and next to them
"El Tano" with the beatiful young Geraldine, and next to them somebody from
New Zealand, and next to them somebody from Italy, and next to them Chicho
with Lucia, and next to them...maybe you with your partner. Just imagine...
Sincerely,
Silvia.
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:11:23 -0800
From: Jean Walsh <tangochic @HOTBOT.COM>
Subject: Re: why CITA?
Why CITA?
Tango is a social dance. CITA brings together the best of Buenos Aires with the rest of the world. People come to milongas not just to dance, but also to socialize and simply watch other people dance. You can see the best at the CITA milongas, and you can make friends with Tango people from all over the world. The special performances at the CITA milongas were amazing and the stage show was the highest quality of Tango (Not for Export) that can be imagined.
It is true that Buenos Aires is not as safe as it used to be. But there are always taxis standing by outside the milongas all night long, and if you are with a group - it is much safer than being alone. If you have extra money, you can always arrange for privates with the CITA teachers or any other teachers in Buenos Aires. If you think that you cannot compete with the beautiful young Argentine women in the milongas when it comes to being asked to dance, well, the truth is that there are always more than a few milongueros able and willing to be hired as "taxi" dancers - they will dance with you as much as you want and will be perfect gentlemen (I can't believe that Cammie did not have such an option).
Finally, yes, you can rewind your video tapes as many times as you want, but it's not the same as taking a class with Gustavo Naveira and Giselle Anne!
Cheers,
Jean.
HotBot - Search smarter.
http://www.hotbot.com
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:56:40 -0800
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: why CITA?
Original Message -----
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: why CITA?
> "the authentic athmosphere and excitement of Buenos Aires milongas
> cannot be duplicated anywhere in the world."
>
> Silvia is absolutely right! Why take 10 classes a day, spend all your
> free time with CITA participants (no offense intended as to the company
> of people)?
Why not take the classes? and what is wrong with spending time with other
tangueros(as) from all over the world? Besides, we were never constrained to
only socialize with the CITA participants. We were always free to do
whatever we wished. There were also plenty of local people at the milongas.
(I understand people took so many classes, they were tired
> and did not go out to dance in BsAs). Why pay to go to the beautiful
> Buenos Aires, the cradle of tango, and not partake in its culture?
> Just the atmosphere of native milonga makes one want to dance the way
> real, live, common Argentinians do: simple, to the music, and with the
> heart.
Do you really think that going to CITA somehow kept you from dancing like
the common Argentine people? Do you think that somehow attending CITA kees
you from "dancing from your heart"? Please get real, do you really think
that the participants of CITA are not good enough dancers to understand the
"real" tango?
> Be honest, CITA participants! How many steps of those shown in classes
> did you learn? How many of these steps will you use in your dancing? How
> many of you will perform tango steps you acquired from the stage?
Once again there is that old canard about "stage tango vs. *real* tango". I
think it should be said once and for all that the teachers and dancers who
participated and taught at the workshops are as real tango dancers as they
can possibly be. I think it's insulting to imply that the teachers and
organizers of CITA are some how not real tango dancers. Gustavo Naveira
alone is one of the most respected teachers and dancers of Bs As. Many
"travelling teachers" have learned from him. I did not go to CITA to
memorize steps but to learn more *tango*. And that is exectly what I did.
> CITA is a good way to support tango in Argentina. If we practice a few
> steps we know in milongas at home REGULARLY is what will make us better
> dancers. Dancing with our hearts will make us TANGO dancers.
If you had been there you would perhaps have experienced the true dancing
from the *heart* that so many people did. If you had been there and danced
to that beautiful live, soulful tango music, with *real* tangueros you would
know that attending CITA will definitely "make us better dancers" and "make
us TANGO dancers"
> As to the steps: there are so many video tapes, very reasonably priced
> if you use rewinding a lot (and one should). We have many touring
> teachers all over the world. Learn at home from them if money is an
> issue. Now, the value of a great trip and vacationing with people who
> share your tango obsession cannot be underestimated! IT IS WORTH ANY
> MONEY. If you decided to go, it was your decision, true?
There is absolutely no way that playing and rewinding a video tape will be
equivalent to even a few seconds of feedback from one of those teachers.
Forget about learning from tapes. Those are only an aid to help cement what
you learn fron *real* teachers. You will never understand anything about
"dancing from the heart" from watching video tapes. Yes, the decision to go
to CITA was my decision, but I do not think it was a bad decision. Also, you
can learn a lot by going to your local milongas and get better, but there is
no way that you can experience the level of dancing available in Bs As.
Attending CITA gives one a fine opportunity to experience this fine level of
tango dancing. Sure you could go to Bs As by yourself and learn tango. Many
people do that. But there is nothing to prevent you from learning and
enjoying tango and the culture of Bs As by attending CITA. On the contrary,
Attending this event will facilitate you tango experience in Bs As.
> My disclaimer is for inappropriate use of English articles: we do not
> have them in Russian. I am sure there are other errors: beg your
> forgiveness, list!
>
> Eugenia
Your English is quite good Eugenia, no need to apologize for it. Why, even a
non-native speaker like me can understand you quite well ;-) What needs
reassesing is you perception of the worth of CITA as a tango experience, a
cultural experience and a great opportunity to learn about "true" tango from
"true" masters in the company of "true tangueros & tangueras" from all over
the world.
I hpe that some time you have the opportunity to participate and enjoy CITA
or a similar event.
Regards,
Manuel
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:15:13 -0500
From: Julie Taylor <jtaylor @RICE.EDU>
Subject: Whose Heritage is Argentine Tango?
I am concerned that so sensitive a tanguero as Steve Brown would seem to
contrast tango as a lively tradition outside of Argentina as against one
that has been dead for periods of time within Argentina.
Tango has never been dead in Argentina and Uruguay. I did my first
research on the tango in 1967 when everyone was worried about the death of
tango. As I pointed out in an article about that era, nothing can be dead
when every conversation concerns its welfare. People talked constantly
about the tango. Piazzolla was active. People fought over his relevance.
Some defended him; some defended more traditional music; some defended a
position in which they claimed tango was irrelevant; others with tears in
their eyes spoke of its relevance to every single sphere of Argentine life.
It is true that around this time the tango was not danced by all social
classes. My companions in the milonga in Buenos Aires today, however,
almost always remember one family member who danced or many family
occasions when the tango was important. They remember their fathers and
the workers on the street who whistled tangos as they walked about the
city. They remember their mothers singing tangos as they cooked or did the
wash. So people who grew up when the tango was "not danced" know the
lyrics, they know the singers, they recognize orchestras, they have seen
all the many films that were made about the tango over all these years that
the tango was supposedly dying. Some tried to dance and were picked up by
the police of one dictatorship or another. This is not to say that all
Argentines know all these details. But many do, and non Argentines know
almost none of this wealth of heritage. Listen on a bus, pick up a best
seller, look at the headlines in the papers, argue a moral point -- a tango
line is used, and this broad immersion in tango culture *is* shared
throughout the culture, in the milongas and far beyond them.
What does this have to do with dancing? Density. This context for the
tango echoes in turn with historical twists and turns of human destiny in
the form of Argentine lives. And the dance, when Argentines dance it for
their own purposes within their own lives, has an intensity like nothing
else. The stakes are a vulnerable, precarious identity in a country that
was colonized several times over and remains more than ever at the mercy of
the whim of more powerful nations. So of course, this very whim is
tragically important in Argentine history and Argentine minds. It makes
sad sense that Argentines would be sensitive to foreign opinion: that is
what their economy, their culture, and today their jobs depend on. And
they dance this sadness at the same time that they dance lost love: just
listen to Tristeza de la Calle Corrientes. As I have said elsewhere, for
Argentines dancing their tango, the genre as they know it in Buenos Aires
is different from the tango abroad in particular ways: the personal
search is deeper, the commitment complete, the transcendence of another
order. And the stakes are very, very high.
Julie Taylor
Professor
Department of Anthropology
Rice University
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 04:40:22 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Tango prejudices.
Steve Brown from Tejas wrote:
"The last ten years has seen an explosion of tango as a social dance,
first in Europe, then the United States and Canada, and then
Argentina. Many Europeans, Canadians and Americans have been dancing
tango longer than the young and not-so-young Argentines who are
venturing abroad to teach it. Once again Argentines embraced tango
only after it found popularity abroad. (The first time was in the
early 1900s.) In addition, an Argentine friend of mine who is in his
40s and has danced tango for a few years has told me that he has not
learned to dance tango well because it will suggest that he is not
serious about his chosen profession and that dancing tango well is the
mark of being a low-life milonguero. I am not sufficiently
knowledgable to speculate why the Argentine character is such that
tango cannot embraced at home until it is reassuringly popular abroad."
Steve's question is one of the many things that no one knows unless he/she
was born and raised in
Argentina. It is something that Argentineans very seldom talk about because
it has to do with their prejudices.
I will give the facts and then, maybe attempt to explain its origin.
Popular in the USA means, "Apple pie, baseball and Chevrolet". The
Argentinean equivalent would be
"Mate(Arg.tea), soccer, tango and barbeque"."Popular here could sometimes
have a meaning of "grasa, mersa, cabecita".
Which means ordinary, bad taste, low-class. Tango was born with an original
sin, which in the mind of many middle and high-class Argentineans cannot be
washed away by any type of baptism. Tango is associated with spending the
night at the billiard parlor, the day at the cafe playing cards, the soccer
games or the horse races. As you grow up, even when your parents love tango
they indoctrinate you to keep away from it. "You are suppossed to study and
become a good person". The message is quite clear.
Due to this bad association, a form of prejudice, the Argentinean worker has
traditionally hidden its class by dressing very well.
Early in the century foreign visitors were surprised to see the care workers
took in order to hide their condition.
Federico Rahola y Tremols wrote in his " Impresiones de un viaje a la
America del Sud" ( Impressions of my trip to South America) , appeared in
Barcelona, Spain in 1904, "Workers although they are many, do not wear any
special clothing that could make you detect their social condition, the
population presents a marked burgois type". Scobbie wrote that the special
carts in trains for workers,(early morning going to work and evening,
returning) are usually empty although their fare is 50% cheaper". As the
European fashion was replaced by the American, this maskarading was no
longer necessary.:-)
The city has invisible boundaries...but this is something different I will
explain someother time.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 30 Mar 2000 to 31 Mar 2000 (#2000-87)
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