The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 29 Mar 2000
to 30 Mar 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 03:00:04 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 29 Mar 2000 to 30 Mar 2000 (#2000-86)
There are 12 messages totalling 566 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Japanese people and US! (2)
2. A bit of everything!
3. Tango superstition
4. Social changes in Argentina
5. Surviving in Buenos Aires
6. High price of tango and crime in Bs As
7. Japanese people and US! Part II (2)
8. Fw: Could I be wrong?
9. Narrow Minds
10. Superstition and inflated prices.
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:47:23 +0200
From: Pino Dangiola <pino.dangiola @SWIPNET.SE>
Subject: Japanese people and US!
Japanese people and US!
Knowing that this will not be taken well in all fields I have to say it =
anyway!
After just returning from my second tour to Buenos Aires that lasted =
almost 3 months I can't help but thinking that US and Japanese people =
are making BA too expensive. You are making it almost impossible for us =
with another origin to visit the tangoscene. With your strong dollar and =
yen you are all driving the prices to the sky.
I will give you a couple of examples:
The well-known shoemaker "Juan Carlos" charged about 80 dollars last =
year. This year he is bragging about all his US and Japanese customers =
and charging 140 dollars! Why work for less!
Even the others like Flabella and others are a little bit more =
expensive. But I found a woman, talking like a parrot all the time, =
selling good shoes for 55 dollars under the name Deli=E9.
Second:
A close friend is giving a lot of privates to all kind of people but =
charge 100 dollars per hour for the Japanese people. Normally he =
charges 40-50 dollars. Why work for less. This reflects back on =
everybody making all privates more expensive then they could be. Try to =
get the price down please!
Third:
The big spectacle that occurred in BA a couple of weeks ago. Nice =
eveningsshows and all that. But for who? Of course US people with strong =
US dollar. Why work for less!
Please people try to get the price down. This way we all can get more =
hours and more things.=20
We who live in countries where the currency is weak can hardly stay in =
BA at all.=20
Well there I said it.
Pino Dangiola
Sweden=20
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:48:36 +0200
From: Pino Dangiola <pino.dangiola @SWIPNET.SE>
Subject: A bit of everything!
A bit of everything!
First, why do some of you always complain and giving the dates of when a =
specific subject was brought up on the list? There are hopefully new =
people coming to this usually quite boring list*.
They don't know that this subject was discussed on 23 of March 1997. You =
are not saving all of these emails are you? Second: Hopefully things =
change. Maybe things are different now. Maybe someone can come up with a =
solution this time. Who knows? One thing is for sure the tango changes =
constantly.
? I seek partner for a week in Timbuktu in October. Please, give us a =
break! Who cares! (1,67m usually wearing blue shoes) Come On!
All of you being crazy because of a porno site e-mail. Why? You can read =
the header and delete. I delete 95 % of the mails from the tangolist.
Usually there are bad topics not worth reading. But the last one =
concerning ladies not getting to dance if they come with a man. Well in =
the Latin world it is clear. The males don't dance with one mans woman =
in respect of him. Sad but true. I lived with a known tangoface in BA =
for a long time and each time I went out with them she got to dance with =
him and me. Nobody else. Very boring for her. He danced of course with a =
couple of girls. But you could of course try to be alert and seek =
eyecontact and doing this will make it easier. In Europe I think it is =
easier. But if you sit and hold hands the chance is smaller that someone =
wants to disturb this.
It is a bigger problem with the shortage of men in the tangoworld. We =
have this problem to. But also the problem of a too big of a stream of =
people passing threw both men and women. It is a big question for all of =
us involved in the tango. Both organisers and the rest of us. We need to =
keep more people to stick with tango. There is no general solution. All =
have to do what they think is best and take responsibility of there own =
"barrio".
About being robbed in BA. My brother and me were robbed in the =
well-known tangohotel Victoria last year. The afternoon before leaving. =
All the advice that has been given is of course correct. Try to blend =
in. My advice is don't speak your own language or be silent when passing =
other people. Cross the street if you see people coming towards you or =
standing in the corner. Give the cabdriver the crossing of the street : =
Rivadavia -Medrano and be silent. Otherwise the risk for detours and =
speeding up of the taximeter is big. At one time the cab driver leaned =
forward after hearing us speak Swedish and the taximeter was running =
like never before making the trip 5 dollars more than usual. We said of =
course that there was no way we were going to pay this and said that his =
taximeter was wrong. We ended up paying only 5 dollars. Of course we =
slammed his car doors really hard. They hate that.
But maybe the best advice is to try to be with other people all the =
time. Share cab etc. Going alone day or night is not a good idea. A =
friend of mine she made her hair red from being blond and bought a =
portable radio, that se wears all the time she is walking in the =
streets. The earphones keep people from approaching even if she is not =
actually using the radio.
The bottom line is be careful and suspicious all the time. Sad but the =
truth.
Finally I would like to bitch a little bit on all the posting saying: I =
have no money interest in this and then giving all the info including =
the underwear of the organiser. Please people! We are not stupid.
Many of the postings are also from the organiser and it just pass threw. =
Gustavo N and Daniela A s postings are clearly from organisers. And =
maybe this should be allowed. It is also tangoinformation and usually I =
find these more interesting than most of the rubbish. (se above).
For you people who don't have anything to do on MIDSUMMER please look at =
www.go.to/tangocamp for a different tangoexperience. Yes, I am the =
organiser.
Pino Dangiola
Sweden
=20
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:36:26 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Japanese people and US!
Pino Dangiola wrote:
>
> Even the others like Flabella and others are a little bit more expensiv=
e. But I found a woman, talking like a parrot all the time, selling good=
shoes for 55 dollars under the name Deli=E9.
There might be some blessings in disguise here. Soon, there will be argen=
tine tango
shoes with signatures of the truly famous on the side selling for even mo=
re. Those
tourists from outside who really want to shoe(show) off to their friends =
back home,
can buy the shoes now and acquire walking skills later(in the comfort of =
their new
shoes), for $<prohibitively expensive>. This will also make it possible =
for others
to make and sell shoes at a lower price providing them with an alternati=
ve to
having to mug people.
Given that one might be made to give up ones wallet involuantrarily
or may choose to get ripped off by the signature collection of a famous =
dancer
in style, the latter seems more desirable for everyone involved(in additi=
on to
providing the freedom of expression and of choice).
Especially for those who complain about the first and can not have enough
of the second but also for all those who do not want to be involved in e=
ither.
rajan.
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:54:18 -0600
From: "kata @pitton.com" <kata @PITTON.COM>
Subject: Tango superstition
The tango "Adios Muchachos" is said to bring bad luck.
Are there other superstitions associated with tango?
Kate
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:32:00 -0500
From: Enrico Massetti <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Social changes in Argentina
My 2 cents:
In the last decade I was working for an US multinational, supporting
their business in Latin America, including Argentina.
Many on this list are Americans, you have seen and maybe you have lived
through the restructuring/downsizing/fire-them-all many big (and not so big)
American corporation went through.
My experience is that it took three years for my employer to get rid of me,
as I was based in the United States, and there were a lot of issues
involved,
while the "job" of getting rid of my colleagues in Buenos Aires was done
overnight.
I have been told that there were a lot of state-owned enterprises, with
bloated payrolls. My was not the case, as the Buenos Aires operation
was a small, dynamic private company, leader in his market that started
going bad after it had been bought by the giant multinational from the
former
owner.
What are my former BA colleagues doing today? In the US I am doing fine
as a consultant, I am afraid it would not work from Buenos Aires.
Ciao,
Enrico
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:28:55 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango @FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: Surviving in Buenos Aires
I have been living in Buenos Aires for the last year. Manuel offers good
advice in his posting. I follow this advice. One should try to blend in.
I don't carry credit cards and a lot of cash. I put on jewelry when I
arrive at the milongas. Loud conversation in English on the street is
going to attract attention. Learn to be streetwise when you visit here, so
you won't have any bad experiences like Cammie.
Janis
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:50:42 +0100
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: High price of tango and crime in Bs As
(long rant)
The high prices charged to Americans and Japanese are not their fault. This
is a fact of life. in a free market the price is the highest that the market
will bear. I cannot believe that there are so many Japanese and American
people in Argentina willing to shell out $100 per hour for tango lessons
that no one else can get a lesson for less. With the lure of all this money
surely the number of tango teachers wanting to get in the action will expand
and competition will take care of the prices. I also don't know so many
*rich* Americans or Japanese who are willing to spend money so freely. My
wife and I and the vast majority of our friends and people we know who
travel to Bs As are not swimming in money. I have to watch my money and
stick to a budget when I travel. The same is true for the people who travel
with us. Sure, when we vacation we usually indulge in some things we don't
do at home and buy souvenirs and trinkets, but that is because we saved for
it. The average American in the USA can not afford many $100 per hour
lessons in anything. If these outrageouly high prices become the norm, the
perpetrators will succeed in killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. I
know that there is a perception among some people in Argentina as well as in
other parts of the world that we in the USA are filthy rich and can be
fleeced over and over. That is simply not true. Americans tend to be
generous and willing to share of their homes and themselves. They are also
blessed with a strong economy and live in a wealthy country but we all work
hard for our stuff and we do not have inexhaustible funds. When Tango
becomes too expensive people will drop it and it will be no more popular or
widespread than polo.
Another little note, I received a private rebuke for "criticizing" the crime
in Bs As. The writer said something to the effect that where I live it is
probably not any better. First of all, I hope that no one took my post for a
criticism of Argentina or its people. I actually took a compasionate view of
these unfortunate events and view them as a result of economic injustice and
poverty. On the other hand, these things are also true. I live in Atlanta,
Georgia. I take no pride in the fact that this city is "the murder capital
of the US". Atlanta is a violent city in a violent country and we have our
share of crime. I also wrote about other places that are worse. The fact
however is that these petty crime incidents like the "mustard sauce" trick
and the petty thievery of wallets and video cameras from inside the salons
at the Club Espanol were exceedingly frequent and way too many for comfort.
I've never been to another similar event where so many participants were
victimized or attempted against. In all the time I've lived in Atlanta I've
only know one person who had their purse snatched (my mother) and in 20
years of attending contra dance and other dance events,I know of only a
handful of episodes of theft. Of course, I've had my car broken into a
number of times and have had stuff stolen from me over the last 38 years.
Also, there are many, many, instances that I don't know but imagine how many
more instances there are in Bs As that I don't know either? I would guess
that about 3% of the people from CITA were either attempted against or
robbed in just a few days. That is a lot! I don't mean this a any criticism
of the Argentines or Argentina. I really like the city of Bs As and I like
the people very much, but facts are facts. Be careful out there. I also
would like to say that I really like the Mexican people and I like Mexico
city and Guadalajara. I also love the country of Mexico, it is beautiful and
it's people are kind hearted and very polite and friendly. Still, Mexico
City is totally and horribly unsafe. If you travel there your chances of
being robbed are very high. But this is not because you are a "gringo" or
"turista". The poor people there are victimized so much that it's difficult
to believe. I hope that the economic situation of all our neighboring
countries and the poor countries of the world improve and soon. The roots of
all this crime are economic injustice and poverty. I only hope things will
improve soon before crime becomes a way of life for many people in the
world.
Manuel
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:29:05 +0200
From: Pino Dangiola <pino.dangiola @SWIPNET.SE>
Subject: Japanese people and US! Part II
Hello fellow tangoueros.=20
Very good!=20
I seem to have stirred up some feelings here, so I maybe should clear =
something's up.=20
I knew this topic was going to be criticised. And in order to write =
something in this list you=20
have to cover all your angels obviously I didn't. You people don't have =
much imagination if you can't get the=20
picture together without putting all kinds of assumptions in it.=20
Well first of all I stayed 2 =BD months.=20
Second: I lived for free in a house of a friend.=20
Third: I lost 4 kilos during my stay and I only weigh 72 kilos (182 cm)=20
Forth: I went in for free at most milongas=20
Average money spent per day was about 25-30 dollars.=20
So I am not rich, just a student who wants to improve his dance, =
together with his girlfriend, also student, after=20
saving for a year to find that we could not afford to take so many =
classes with the maestro's we wanted. Or to be blunt it was not worth =
the money!!!=20
This did not mean that we took classes with other teachers (" it means =
some of their young, or young at heart dancing couples can tour the =
world making a good living" (Enrico)). We just did not take as many as =
we wanted. If I prefer going to Gustavo N, finding he is too expensive I =
am not going to someone else. No, I take one lesson and hoping it could =
be two. That is the difference. The young ones didn't get nada!=20
"This will also make it possible for others
to make and sell shoes at a lower price providing them with an =
alternative to
having to mug people."(rajan)=20
Well if I fly for 13 hours and pay 1300 dollars to get there I would =
like to be able to by nice shoes. I dont know you but since the shoes =
are our only equipment I would like to get good ones. Not something's =
that break after 4 weeks. It is a long flight back. Sure I can dance in =
our Swedish "tr=E4skor" but the are a bit slippery. So what happen with =
the shoe thing. Well I bought 4 pairs around 55-60 dollars, but I would =
preferred 3 pairs from Carlos at 80 bucks. But paying 420 dollars was =
NOT an option.=20
And that was all thanx to you guys.=20
The point is that clearly there is a movement of the prices towards the =
sky.
And of course they should earn money but I don=B4t want to help
making tango only affordably for rich people.=20
Maybe there is a way to make the price rice a bit slower. I think 57% is =
a little bit too much.=20
How? I don't know.=20
Pino Dangiola=20
Sweden
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:04:18 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Japanese people and US! Part II
Original Message-----
From: Pino Dangiola <pino.dangiola @SWIPNET.SE>
Date: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 7:35 PM
>
>I knew this topic was going to be criticised. And in order to write
something in this list you
>have to cover all your angels obviously I didn't.
Yes, angles are good but angels are even better -- I wish there were a
few
in every milonga I go to ;-)
>Maybe there is a way to make the price rice a bit slower. I think 57%
is a little bit too much.
>How? I don't know.
Well, you are right. As a matter of fact, I am thinking of attending
the milonga which
is going to be hosted by you in Sweden, so, I hope you will find out how
before then :-)
rajan,
Paris/France.
>
>Pino Dangiola
>Sweden
>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:35:08 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Fw: Could I be wrong?
Original Message -----
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @infovia.com.ar>
To: TANGO - L <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 9:18 PM
Subject: Could I be wrong?
> Mr. Fillipelli wrote:
> "Safe??? what about the "desaparecidos" and the military represion?
> and what about the terrorists attacks during the Isabelita time....
> The Nation remained very safe...Safe to whom?"
>
> We were discussing crime and theft in general; not terrorism practiced
by
> both, the guerrilas and the state.
> I agree entirely with Mr. Fillipelli; between 1976 and 1984 the country
was
> not safe for any one. The least for those that were involved in politics.
> It was my error not to have mentioned that particular period; that we all
> wish we could forget.
> Theft and crime other than for political reasons were rare during the Nazi
> government of that period.
> Kate wrote:
>
> "Several of my Argentinean friends and colleagues say that throughout this
> century mental & physical abuse of wives, date rape, teenage pregnancy,
> alcoholism and prostitution were more than "very rare or unheard of", but
> that many of these things were not talked about and much less reported.,
> which means the old statistics may not give an accurate picture."
>
> Here I can speak only in reference to my own experience; other people
might
> have different opinions.
> I have practiced medicine both in the USA and also in Argentina.
> My experience is that date rape, teenager pregnancy, alcoholism and
> prostitution were extremely rare while we grew up here in Buenos Aires.
> Discussing the subject with many friends they all agree.
> There were two or three heavy drinkers in any neiborhood, many men
suffering
> from cirrhosis of the liver in public hospitals. (A disease caused by
> chronic alcoholism). This was seen mostly in very poor immigrants from the
> interior or from South America. Not from Uruguay. Most women were virgin
at
> the time of marriage until 1970. Unless they had lost their virginity to
the
> one man that later on became their husband. The first time I saw a
> prostitute in my life, I was 20 years old, it was during my first trip to
> Montevideo (capital of Uruguay); here prostitution is legal and carefuly
> regulated by the Health Department. Had they existed I should have heard
> about them, we have so many friends as we grow up.
> As to mental abuse of wives, it is possible that it was more frequent than
> noticed in public, the same goes for physical abuse.
> I only saw a battered woman, with broken bones once in many years in a
> public hospital in Buenos Aires; pushing around, slaps in the face were
more
> common, as they are part of the culture of many latin populations and
mostly
> from those coming from Suthern Italy.
> When I started practicing medicine in the USA in 1971, the difference was
> enormous, when it came to any of the socio-economical conditions above
> described. I think that the problem has improved somewhat in the States at
> the same time when it has worsened in Argentina. The economy is good
there
> and very bad here.Giulianti 0 tolerance might be another factor :-).
>
>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:21:09 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Narrow Minds
Regarding the posting by Pino Dangielo of May 29.
Pino,
Your lack of writing skills and poor understanding of english syntax,
sentence structure, incorrect usage of gerunds and infinitives, and unity of
ideas in a paragraph might be excused. Perhaps even your arrogance. But your
vituperative fault finding, anger and prejudices, which seemed to cover the
entire gamut from gross generalisations about the Japanese and Americans or
Argentines to censorious complaints about all the insufficiently intelligent
(i.e. not what you want to read) commentary contributed to the list is
offensive. If most of this is crap to you, don't bother to sign on.
And you have the nerve to advertise an event you are sponsoring after
insulting your readers. You don't seem to be very smart about marketing and
advertising either.
It only takes a couple of lines to request a pair of shoes. Your offal took
up about twelve paragraphs. Please do us all a favor. Spare us your petty
self-important rantings.
Charles Roques
NYC
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:45:10 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Superstition and inflated prices.
"The tango "Adios Muchachos" is said to bring bad luck.
Are there other superstitions associated with tango?"
Kate
I wonder who in the entire world invented that story?
Adios Muchachos has always been one of the favorite tangos to sing together.
I never heard it brings bas luck.
As to the price of tango lessons:
How does it go up? If I charge U$S 10/ hr. and my schedule is always full. I
try 20/hr., my schedule remains full.
I try 40,50, 100, 150, etc. till I see empty spaces in my schedule then I
start to lower my prices.
Would not you do the same?
We used to take lessons for 10 or 20 pesos per hr. from the same people that
are asking 120/hr. these days.
It is nobody's fault. It is the way the free market works.
By the way, I heard that Sweeden is one of the most expensive countries in
the world. It is not?
End of TANGO-L Digest - 29 Mar 2000 to 30 Mar 2000 (#2000-86)
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