The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 23 Mar 2000
to 24 Mar 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 23 Mar 2000 to 24 Mar 2000 (#2000-81)
There are 13 messages totalling 516 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. "NEW" VS. "OLD" TANGO
2. What is bothering you?
3. Italians, anything to do with tango?/Flamenco
4. Tango/Buenos Aires in USA Today
5. Tango goes to Europe (4)
6. Italians, anything to do with tango? (2)
7. origin of words and other stuff
8. etymology of "tango" (was: Re: Italians, anything to do with tango?
9. Origin of words - Milonga & Tango
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 01:57:14 +0200
From: "Jari Aalto+list.tango" <posting-list @MAILANDNEWS.COM>
Subject: Re: "NEW" VS. "OLD" TANGO
* Thu 2000-03-16 Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM> list.tango
* Message-Id: <20000316.005247.-294119.3.larrydla @juno.com>
| Only someone new to tango would think that there's only Old Style & New
| Style tango!
I don't agree. You can find a distinction of "new" and "old" in the
Argentine tango.
| In reality, at any time there are SEVERAL new styles of tango,
Agreed. But among these styles you can certainly find the
new and old, just like you can hear what music is old or what music is
new or, maybe word modern would be better.
| "Oh, but there's the Tango Nuevo of Salas & Company!" you might say. So?
| Just because the call their style NEW, do we have to believe them? Do we
| believe car dealers who label themselves HONEST?
newness has some part of scene, but I would classify that the "new" style
has surfaced there where the teachers are relatively new and who have
taken a more modern approach to understand the steps and movements of the
Argentine tango.
Where old-stylists learned it by heart and just by dancing in milongas, the
teaching was based more on emotion and feeling.
A modern teacher understands the muscle dynamics, human's physical way of doing
things and have more or less understanding how the steps work "better" and
how they perhaps "look" better if a certain amount of substle changes were
made to muscle tensions, body movement, hand positions, balance etc.
You can dance the same staeps with old and new, but in new style you have
a sort of perfection in mind: It may be the same if you cross you legs
wide open when you dance in milonga, but it certainly "looks" better and
it harder to do (countless repetitions needed) if you close the foots in
a good position and stand in a perfect balance.
jari
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 02:23:03 +0200
From: "Jari Aalto+list.tango" <posting-list @MAILANDNEWS.COM>
Subject: Re: What is bothering you?
* Thu 2000-03-16 Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy.zelaya @eng.sun.com> list.tango
* Message-Id: <0FRJ0040FSS7YT @ha-sims.eng.sun.com>
| You ask what bothers me. I'll tell you. What bothers me is
| the spreading of misinformation
|
| Thus, when someone comes on line and says things --specially with
| an air of authority, or heaven help us, AN ARGENTINEAN-- everybody
| gets excited and takes the words at face value without ever
| bothering to ask whether it is really true or even if it makes
| any sense at all.
|
| ...
| the past to the present. His writings are a danger because he
| confuses people."
Wow. I would have expected more from open minded people. It seems that
there are "teachers" in this list that try to educate other users what to do,
what to say and what what is appropriate in this list and what is not.
"Children should be protected from reading this stuff", yeah right.
We should conclude that people are autonomous and best responsible for
interpreting their reading and selecting their material. It is better
to see contradicting opinions than to try to put restrictions on some
people or subjects.
Any serious reader interested in History goes to library or order some
serious books on the subject, if he has his mind filled with questions
that should be answered deeply.
This list helps, but I don't think that no-one takes all the messages as
the "final word". They are simply expressions of someone, that may have a
opinion, some life experience or "heard" rumour.
If someone takes the spoken text as "truth and only truth", it's he's
choice and maybe a misfortunate from some point of view. But I don't think
we should be all that concerned as someone might believe. World won't come
to stop if that happens.
However the words are taken, just tells how we people behave. Our
life is surrounded by discussions and that's how we hopefully expand
our vision, tolerance and perhaps our understanding.
| One more thing Sergio, don't get too smug because someone sends
| you a private message "congratulating, asking for more subjects,
| and also many publications from Europe and North America asking
| permission to reproduce some of the notes." I get those too.
| Here's one I received today (with apologies to the sender for
| disclosing it),
I find this quote and yours mostly hilarious :-)
jari
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:07:55 +0100
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Italians, anything to do with tango?/Flamenco
I wrote:
>Now, flamenco came with the migration of gypsies west ward
>with their origins in norhtern India starting more than 2000 years ago
>(an excellent film 'pacho drom', and I hope I have the name right,
Well, unfortunately, I did not have the name right. sorry.
The correct name is : "Latcho Drom"
(now available on video:
http://www.mint.net/movies/shadow/latchodrom/latchodrom.html)
The review in washington post(which does not share my enthusiam for the
movie) is @:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/movies/videos/latcho
dromnrhinson_b009df.htm
rajan.
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:54:15 -0500
From: James Murphy <cmurf @WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Tango/Buenos Aires in USA Today
Today's issue of the USA Today Newspaper (March 23,00) has a small front
page photo of some tango dancers.
The item is a preview announcement for an article on Buenos Aires that will
appear in tomorrow's issue. (March 24,00)
Don't know how much coverage there will be but it might be of interest to
some on the list.
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:14:44 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Tango goes to Europe
Tango was born in the periphery of the city, bars, cafes, brothels; from
there it moved inside the city, Dancing Houses. The next step was the patios
(yards) of conventillos ( boarding houses) and finally inside the Middle and
High Class Argentinean Home. Tango was still a pariah, the bastard son of
pips and women of ill reputation, dressed like a poor compadrito.
The next stop of this pilgrimage is Europe.
Argentina developed very fast between 1880 and 1930. The whole city of
Buenos Aires was rebuilt during this period.
The old colonial Spanish city, with one story buildings and narrow streets
was replaced by a metropolis of wide avenues and beautiful parks and
buildings of French and Italian architecture. The country became one of the
10 richest nations in the world, position that maintained till the early
50ies. when paralysis and decline of the economy began, situation that was
to last for the next 30 years, till 1985 when the Global economy decided
that this country was an "an emergent market". :-)
During that period of fast development the very rich had the habit of going
to Europe at least once a year. They all had big homes in Paris or London.
Their parties were regularly attended by the nobility, the famous and the
very rich. The French coined the phrase " he is as rich as an Argentinean"
to mean extremely rich. The sons of those people remained in Europe to
study. It was they that introduced Argentine Tango to the Parisian nobility.
Tango became the craze of the time right away.
Everybody started giving parties with Argentinean orchestras, tango lessons
and milongas. Women's fashion had to change to adjust to the moves of tango.
The very bulky dresses were replaced by lighter, looser ones. A famous
fashion designer had a fair amount of material of orange color that he could
not sell. He decided to name the material's color "Orange Tango"; he ran out
of the cloth right away and had to order more. Tango became the dance of the
moment; from Paris, rapidly migrated to the other big capitals, London,
Rome, Berlin, and finally New York.
Next tango returns to Buenos Aires, dressed with tuxedo, where it is
received as the most beloved son. What a change!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:18:45 +0100
From: andy Ungureanu <Andy.Ungureanu @T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: Italians, anything to do with tango?
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Sergio Suppa schrieb:
>
> The word tango seems to be of African origin as well. It originally meant
> "enclosed space", it evolved to mean the place where blacks danced and
> finally it referred to the dance itself. This word appears in Spain as Tango
> Andaluz, because this music modality was "of ida y vuelta" (of UP and Dawn,
> or going and returning) referring to the fact that was music that originated
> in Spain, went to America and returned to Spain modified.
Is this true? I am glad to hear an explanation to "tango" that seams
resonable to me. But even Gabriel Soria, a member of the "Academia
Nacional del Tango" explained in public (Germany 23.Nov.99), the
ethymology may be from lat. "tangere", to touch. If the sense should be
"touch", why not call it "toque" which may be much easyer for spanish
people than latin, maybe spoken by the preacher, but no one else.
Any other ideas?
Andy Ungureanu
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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:57:02 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango goes to Europe
During the tango craze in Europe of the early 1900s, everything
associated with tango was popular. Saverez, a French manufacturer of
guitar string, called their newly introduced silk and steel strings
"Argentinean" and put a picture of a gaucho on the packaging. The
name and packaging remains the same today.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:14:34 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango goes to Europe
During the tango craze in Europe of the early 1900s, everything
associated with tango was popular. Saverez, a French manufacturer of
guitar strings, called their newly introduced silk and steel strings
"Argentinean" and put a picture of a gaucho on the packaging. The
name and packaging remains the same today.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:43:42 -0000
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: origin of words and other stuff
At the risk of spreading bad information, I'll add my $.02. I have heard and
read also that The word "tango" is an African word meaning a place of
gathering. Interestingly, I heard also a teacher at CITA say that the word
"milonga" is also of African origin and means some type of "dance" or
"party".
It would appear that the tango etymology is at least as controversial as the
tango dance styles ;-) We were having dinner and talking in Bs As the other
night with some friends and their friends, a well known and respected Tango
dance couple. While we discussed tango and tango styles (what else!) he (the
man dancer) said something like "there are so many styles that one could say
that almost everybody has the "truth" of tango". This type of fair minded
and non-exclusive way of looking at tango seems to be the way most of the
best and most respected teachers and dancers like to use.
It is rather interesting to see that so many beginner dancers take sides
along one style or another as the " only true tango". A shame really, it
serves only to create divisions and strife.
On the other hand, historical facts should be easier to nail down. The
origin of words could be argued but surely there must be some solid
information or data to back up these claims. I would be quite interested in
finding out more about these things.
Manuel
Original Message -----
From: andy Ungureanu <Andy.Ungureanu @T-ONLINE.DE>
> Sergio Suppa schrieb:
> >
>
> > The word tango seems to be of African origin as well.
SNIP
> Is this true? I am glad to hear an explanation to "tango" that seams
> resonable to me. But even Gabriel Soria, a member of the "Academia
> Nacional del Tango" explained in public (Germany 23.Nov.99), the
> ethymology may be from lat. "tangere", to touch. If the sense should be
> "touch", why not call it "toque" which may be much easyer for spanish
> people than latin, maybe spoken by the preacher, but no one else.
> Any other ideas?
>
> Andy Ungureanu
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:30:59 +0000
From: Carol Shepherd <shepherd @ARBORLAW.COM>
Subject: Re: Italians, anything to do with tango?
andy Ungureanu wrote:
>
> Sergio Suppa schrieb:
> >
>
> > The word tango seems to be of African origin as well. It originally meant
> > "enclosed space", it evolved to mean the place where blacks danced and
> > finally it referred to the dance itself. This word appears in Spain as Tango
> > Andaluz, because this music modality was "of ida y vuelta" (of UP and Dawn,
> > or going and returning) referring to the fact that was music that originated
> > in Spain, went to America and returned to Spain modified.
>
> Is this true? I am glad to hear an explanation to "tango" that seams
> resonable to me. But even Gabriel Soria, a member of the "Academia
> Nacional del Tango" explained in public (Germany 23.Nov.99), the
> ethymology may be from lat. "tangere", to touch. If the sense should be
> "touch", why not call it "toque" which may be much easyer for spanish
> people than latin, maybe spoken by the preacher, but no one else.
> Any other ideas?
>
> Andy Ungureanu
I am interested in more about this, if the word seems to be "of African
origin"...is anyone aware of which African or Afro-Brazilian language or
dialect, it is most likely to be? Are there any linguists on the list,
or does anyone know a linguist who could confirm this?
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw Associates PLLC
Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
734 668 4646 v 734 663 9361 f
business, technology, entertainment
and new media law
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:58:31 -0600
From: "kata @pitton.com" <kata @PITTON.COM>
Subject: etymology of "tango" (was: Re: Italians, anything to do with tango?
A small contribution about the word "tango":
In the dictionary of the Spanish Royal Academy (they decide what's
"official" Spanish), it says that "tango" might be onomatopoetic. They list
it as meaning 1, A party and dance put on by blacks or villagers in some
countries in the Americas; 2, An Argentinean dance; 3, The music and lyrics
of that dance; 4, in Honduras, an indigenous type of drum.
According to Jose Gobello, the head of the Lunfardo Academy in Argentina,
tango comes from the African word "tango", meaning a place to dance. He
says that originally "tango" was used throughout the Americas for a party
where blacks danced and played their drums and that it now means the dance
from the Rio de la Plata region, as well as the lyrics and music.
Gobello adds that there's been a lot of speculation about the origin of the
word, including the not improbable theory that it comes from the Portuguese
verb "tanger", from Crioulo, a dialect based on Portuguese, spoken since
the 16th century on an island named Sa~o Tome' in the Gulf of Guinea (near
the Equator, off the coast of Gabon, in west Africa). The first person
present indicative (the "I" form) of "tanger" is "tango".
All this (and much more) is mentioned in Coluccio's dictionary about the
folklore of Argentina.
According to Portuguese dictionaries, "tanger" comes from the Latin
"tangere". "Tangere" means to touch. "Tanger" means to play an instrument.
This isn't surprising to those of us who speak Spanish because in Spanish
the word "tocar" means both "to touch" and "to play an instrument".
FWIW, this Luso-African origin seems the most likely explanation to me.
Kate
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:40:10 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Origin of words - Milonga & Tango
Manuel and Andy Ungureanu are asking about the etymology of Tango and
Milonga.
Milonga, according to Jose Gobelo (founder of Academia del lunfardo),
considered to be an authority when it comes to Tango subjects, states that
it is a word of the African Language "Quimbunda", plural of 'Mulonga'.
Mulonga in that language means, "word", Milonga means words, the words of
the Payadores. Please review my prior note for further explanation of what
Payada means. In 1872 when Jose Hernandez published his most famous book
"Martin Fierro" (describes in verse the life of a gaucho); the word Milonga
had already acquired the meaning of gathering where one can dance. A decade
later, 1883, Ventura Lynch wrote: "In the periphery of the city the Milonga
is so generalized that is danced in all the gatherings, it can be heard
played by guitars, accordions, comb and paper, or played by street musicians
with flute, harp and violin". It is also danced in the low-class casinos
around the markets of 11 de Septiembre and Constitucion, other dances and
funerals".
Today, Milonga has several meanings, a music, a dance, the place or
gathering where one dances and also the original meaning (many words, or
long story), such as in "no me vengas ahora con esa milonga", (do not start
now with all that jazz).
Tango, there is no agreement as to the etymology of this word. When it comes
to the pre-history of tango everything is covered by a dense fog.
The word tango appeared much earlier than the dance. It first appeared
outside Argentina, in one of the Canary Islands (Isla de Hierro) and in
other parts of America with the meaning of "gathering of blacks to dance to
drum music, also the name the Africans gave the drum itself". The dictionary
of the Spanish Royal Academy of Letters, 1899 edition, defines Tango as
"Fiesta and dance of Negroes or "gente del pueblo" (those that belong to
lower socio-economical class), in America".
also a second meaning: " Music for that dance".
Here one has to remember that to the Spanish world, America is the whole
continent not just the USA, in this case it refers to the Spanish part of
America, excluding USA and Canada.
Here the dictionary gives the doubtful etymology of Latin 'tangir' (to play
instruments). Latin ego tango = I play.
It is only natural to try to find a Latin origin to the word although this
etymological line, obviously is not related to the Argentinean meaning. The
1914 edition gives the etymology tangir or tangere " to play or to touch".
Later editions removed that etymological reference.
The music historian Carlos Vega explains that in Mexico, existed a dance
called tango in the XVIII century. This dance was done individually or
apart, not as a couple. Archives of the Holy Inquisition in Mexico make
reference to the "ancient tango" in 1803. A mexican song.
The Dictionary of the Spanish Royal Academy, edition 1925 defines Tango as
before, but without the latin etymology and added: " Dance of high society
imported from America at the beginning of this century". Once more Tango
traveled all the way from 'low-class' to high-class'. It includes two more
meanings; "music for this dance" and also "Drum of Honduras".
It is only in the 1984 edition that tango is defined as an Argentinean
dance.
*It seems that the African origin of the word Tango is accepted by they
largest number of erudite investigators.
Ricardo Rodriguez, reviewed the languages spoken by the slaves brought to
Argentina. Tribes from Congo, the Gulf of Guinea and Southern Sudan. Tango
means, " closed space", "circle", " any private space to which one must ask
permission to enter". The slave traders called Tango the places where black
slaves where kept, in Africa as well as in America. The place where slaves
where sold also received that name. We could discuss this in more detail but
... I am afraid to bore you with so much detail.
In summary the most probable origin of the word tango is : closed space
where negroes gather to dance, later on the dance itself. Any other
suggestions? :-)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:30:25 -0800
From: "Pelayo Llamas, Jr." <pelayojr @LANMINDS.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango goes to Europe
If it is not already widely known among Tango-Listeros, there is a
3-part (1 hour each) audio program produced by Guadalupe Jolicoeur
(Canadian of Argentinian heritage) produced by CBC Radio entitled "This
Is The Tango". Despite its occassional overgeneralizations about tango
history/personalities, it is well done with lots of enjoyable music
recordings.
There is no sense arguing fervently for one true version of tango
history, We should all have open ears to what is shared on this list and
make our own truth. That's what the world boils down to anyway. I
don't want any thought police browbeating dissident opinions, though
they should nevertheless be posted and subject to each reader's
discretion to hit "DELETE." It is this controversy and diversity of
opinions that keeps things interesting, isn't it.
Now, without further adieu, here is the link.
http://www.radio.cbc.ca/archives/programs/random/TANGO.HTML
End of TANGO-L Digest - 23 Mar 2000 to 24 Mar 2000 (#2000-81)
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