The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 16 Mar 2000
to 17 Mar 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
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Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 03:00:05 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 16 Mar 2000 to 17 Mar 2000 (#2000-74)
There are 10 messages totalling 559 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. "NEW" VS. "OLD" TANGO (2)
2. What is bothering you? (2)
3. Forever Tango soundtrack (2)
4. What is Tango?
5. Online tango bibliography.
6. inspiration & Yo-Yo Ma
7. latest opinions on history
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 00:52:47 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: "NEW" VS. "OLD" TANGO
Only someone new to tango would think that there's only Old Style & New
Style tango!
In reality, at any time there are SEVERAL new styles of tango, each
pitched by someone wanting money or fame (such as it is in our tiny
pond) or just the pleasure of proselytizing the style they've invented.
Then there are the Slightly Older styles of other milongueros, & then
the Somewhat Older styles, & the Good-Deal Older styles, & ....
"Oh, but there's the Tango Nuevo of Salas & Company!" you might say. So?
Just because the call their style NEW, do we have to believe them? Do we
believe car dealers who label themselves HONEST? If so, we might be one
of those people who (a few years back) actually believed that the
"Milonquero Style" was the only style danced by old time tango dancers.
I know what. I'll invent the VERY NEWEST STYLE of tango, obviously
better than all the other kinds. The most important thing is a really
snazzy name, one guaranteed to make everyone abandon all the other
teachers. A name that will make people take $100 privates with me, pay
my way all over the world, buy my books & videos, wine/dine/sleep with
me.
Come on now, help me out with an adjective, everyone. What about "Puro"?
Oops, several other people are using variations on that. "Elegante"?
Nope, same problem. "Corazon"? Now that has possibilities. After all, at
the bottom of the first page of my Web site I put "Tango is not in the
feet. It is in the Heart." And "corazon" means not only heart but also
the core or the essence of something. I could call myself "Larry de Los
Angeles, el patron de Tango Corazon."
And next I have to come up with an extravagant claim. Hmm. How about
this? "In 60 seconds you can be dancing authentic Argentine Tango!"
And "In five minutes you can be an expert!" "In an hour you will amaze
everyone!"
Next, I have to offer a book or some such. Wait! I just remembered!
I already have one. It's at the URL below!
By George, I think I'm on to something.
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:51:09 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: What is bothering you?
Ruddy Zelaya wrote:
"There is so much
s*it spewing forth from the keyboards of some of the "experts" on
this list that you need wings to keep above it. Keep in mind
that free advice often times is worth just as much as you spent on it."
He is talking about discussing tango history. I have to deduct that he
thinks that tango history should not be discussed in a Tango list, in the
internet. Or else he thinks that the elements here discussed are not true,
irrelevent, a waste of time. He then advises, (I find this a very valuable
and wise), to read a book about history of A. Tango. I would think that if
he has a different version off events he should offer them for discussion.
Maybe share his readings from Amazon.com, with us.
History then should be left out, according to his opinion, or maybe I
misunderstand his writing. He seems to be upset with some "experts"; some of
them obviously know what they are talking about, others present questions to
this list; questions that could be interesting or not, they sometimes,
could exhibit some degree of ignorance but this, in my opinion, is fine,
very useful. The members that know more are here to try to answer, to
explain, to clarify doubts. This list should have, among other objects, an
educational goal. A sharing of each others, knowledge and experiences;
expressed always with due respect and politness. Something that any good,
educated, sensitive tango dancer should strive for.
A simple question, one that could seem to be irrelevent, silly, can give
rise to a very interesting discussion.
It is my impression that if we attack and humilliate those that try to ask
or give opinions the list will become very boring.
People will stop asking or giving opinions, and the list will become the
realm of the misfits, psychopaths that are present in other internet lists.
Lists whose main objective is to humilliate, to ridicule, to attack, to
offend.
This list is here to discuss any aspect of Argentine Tango, or not?.
I know that tango history has a place in this list because of the many
private laters I received, congratulating, asking for more subjects, and
also many publications from Europe and North America asking permission to
reproduce some of the notes.
When I am not interested in a writer or a subject I delete the note without
reading it.Could not you do the same?.
My question is, Ruddy what is that bothers you?
Un Milonguero en Mar del Plata. Chau .:-) or maybe a little :-(
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:31:01 -0800
From: Mark Celaya <mark-joan-tango @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Forever Tango soundtrack
In answer to Anton Gazenbeek`s question (3/12/00):
My first recollection of "Forever Tango" was in 1990 when it was
presented at UCLA`s Royce Hall. It was re-presented once again here in
Los Angeles in 1994 & remained a few weeks. It next ventured up to San
Francisco where it appears to have developed its immense popularity that
it enjoys now - lasting there for more than 2 years.
During those early years of the show, 3 cd`s (single) were produced:
"Forever Tango - The Eternal Dance", which was the name of the show in
L.A. starring Gloria & Eduardo, Carlos & Alicia, Miriam & Sandor among
others; the titles of the other 2 cd`s were simply: "Forever Tango -
volume 1 & volume 2". From which productions they were recorded from, I
am not sure, but they were definitely before broadway.
All 3 contain many of the same tangos as on the Broadway version with
virtually the same arrangements.
Mark Celaya
http://home.att.net/~mark-joan-tango
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:03:07 -0800
From: Mark Celaya <mark-joan-tango @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: What is Tango?
I`ve read with interest the past few days, the answers to this question
that was posted recently. I believe they are all correct, but also, there
is much, much, more to add. Whenever I have been asked personally to
describe Tango, my answer is always that I can only relate how it affects
me, my personal involvement with it - that it goes far beyond any words I
may say to describe it. Instead of anyone attempting to define Tango, I
feel that it is more appropriate for Tango to define those of us who are
involved with it, to bring out are true selves, so to speak.
I believe that the Tango is an infinite entity that cannot be restricted
to definitive views about it, though many have tried to own it & "preach
its truth", especially here in Los Angeles, where I have been involved
with it for the past 9 years. I must confess that I have been somewhat
guilty of this very thing, & more interestingly have observed a common
trend among those who become involved with it.
We all share an obsession for it, which keeps us coming back ( 90%+
usually drop out after a few encounters). Many, like Pablo Veron, "...did
not choose the Tango, but rather Tango chose..." us. After a few months,
we begin performing exhibitions, usually not to the music - we love to
impress our non-tango friends. We have photos made. After 1-2 years, if
we have developed any "proficiency" as a dancer, we usually become
critics. A trip to Buenos Aires is usually the final nail on the coffin,
& then many become doomed to the concentration camps of the "tango
nazi`s". Here I can empathize with Juan Carlos Copes & his statement in
the National Geographic special: "...today`s system would swallow me up.
They would tell what me pants to put on, what shoes to wear. I don`t know
if the tango would be the same for me."
I believe most of us list members are involved with the Tango as a dancer
& think of it mostly from that point of view. But I believe also that the
dancers are only a small segment inside an enormous Tango population that
keeps it alive & well. The largest segment that I have observed comes
from the artistic aspect of the Tango - musicians, writers, producers,
singers, etc. & of course, those who enjoy being entertained by it,
visually as well as by audio, all over the world. Professional dancers
are employed in many shows, but I`ve also observed many of them do not
care to dance in a social atmosphere. Luis Pereya, who performed in the
original "Forever Tango" declares in the unedited version of "Tango, the
Obsession" regarding "milongueros": "...who the hell do they think they
are? They didn`t invent Tango." If you have ever viewed Pugliese`s
fantastic Teatro Colon concert video-before a packed house, you will have
noticed not one dancer. The Hollywood Bowl`s "Tango Magic Weekend", which
I produced (the dance portion) drew more than 50,000 people. Much
advertising was done in the programs for dance lessons; I know of no one
who responded.
Another very large group of aficionados I have noticed are Latin
Americans from both North and South America who grew up either listening
to tango ballads or remembering their parents enjoying the various
singers of the time. When a tango festival was organized here a few
years ago honoring Carlos Gardel in front of Paramount Studios, plans &
provisions were made for a few hundred people. More than 10,000 showed
up, mostly people of Latin American heritage. Maybe 50 of them could
dance. Less than half of them paid attention to the dance exhibitions
that were going on. What they did become absorbed in were all the various
boothes selling tango related items, especially music. At my booth in
particular, we did non-stop business for more than 8 hours straight,
mostly cd`s by famous tango singers, men & women - an eye opening
phenomenon I`ll never forget. Very little Pugliese & D`Arienzo was sold
that day.
Neither of these 2 aformentioned groups have any inclination whatsoever
to learn how to dance, but nevertheless, the Tango has a definite meaning
for them.
My enjoyment now with the Tango is the freedom that I feel more & more
everyday in all the aspects of it with which I have become involved. As a
dancer, I step the way I feel at the moment, long steps, short steps,
toe/heel or heel/toe, in a close embrace or separated hold, moving on the
beat, inside the beat, syncopating or strictly with the melody,
improvising or performing common choreographed patterns - never
restricting myself to any one style. According to one recent posting, I
could never be considered a "milonguero", since I have taken dance
lessons, which is fine with me, since I do not care to be labeled or
restricted to any particular image. Having had more than 30 instructors
from Argentina, who have all contradicted each other in more than one
way, I`ve come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as
"authentic Argentine Tango" as a dance. More & more I understand Juan
Carlos Copes` words from his book "Bailemos Tango" : "...there is not and
there has never been anyone in the world who has been the owner of the
"truth" about the dance-tango". I feel I learned more about Tango from
that statement than from all the countless hours I spent in lessons &
classes. This is why I have always promoted other teachers/promoters in
my city other than myself at my milonga. This is another "freedom" that I
enjoy as a promoter.
For me the music will always be the heart & soul of the tango. It is by
far the most important ingredient that has kept me involved with it, more
than any dance pattern which initially drew my attention. As a
professional disc jockey, my freedom means never programing a milonga,
striving continuously to have a rapport with the dancers. Sometimes I
don`t even know what my next selection will be until 10 seconds before
the end of the tango in progress. I never consciously play tandas. My
goal is always to create an event that has never been & will never be
again. My only regret at the end of an evening is that I couldn`t play
everything that I would have liked to. There is so much wonderful tango
music! Someday, I would like to do a 24 hour milonga; & I know of many
dancers who`ll go all night & day, as long as there is music playing.
Interestingly, as a distributor of tango music all over the world I`ve
noticed a difference of "taste" for different orchestras & musical styles
in the many cities of our globe, which I think is fantastic. Of course,
everyone loves Pugliese (but not from all his era`s).
I have no problem with someone dancing "tango steps" to non- tango music;
I did the same when I first began, mostly out of necessity because we
didn`t have all the wonderful music available as now. But to my way of
thinking, if someone performs his/her tango steps to a cha-cha, they are
still dancing a cha-cha, providing they keep the rhythm.The music for me
will always determine the dance. If someone tries to find/dance a tango
rhythm inside a cha-cha musical piece, then I feel that he/she is
tampering with the laws of the universe. By the way, pauses (not stops)
are done in all social dances, if one can feel the music & syncopate body
movements to the various rhythms. Pauses & musical feelings are not
unique to Tango only.
For most of my "tango years" I had a problem with Piazolla from a dancers
perspective. Also, during that time, I heard it from every corner
regarding him, good & bad, from both Argentines & non-Argentines. I have
always considered him a musical genius & considered his music beautiful
to listen to, but it never induced me to dance. I heard no "tango" from
him & would never play his music at my milonga. Somehow, I have developed
dance movements in my body which I can relate to his music, & now have
found a new enjoyment in my dance as well as a new freedom. I have read
that Anibal Triolo once chided Piazolla - that his music was not tango.
Whether this is so is not for me to say; all I know is what I hear & what
I feel when I hear his music - something very wonderful, magical that now
induces me to dance.
As a producer/writer of shows, I feel the freedom now to take the Tango
to another avenue of creative expression, from a non-Argentine point of
view, but still emphasizing its genuine "Argentineness". This is actually
the only way that I could project it. Whether this would go over well
remains to be seen. I have 2 shows written, waiting to be produced.
Regarding "tango etiquette", for me there will never be any, no rules of
conduct other than "common courtesy". I live by my upbringing which
probably offends some but it is never intentional. I will always deal
with people on a one to one basis, & with each situation as it arises -
the same way that I dance.
I know that I`ve written much more than I intended. As you can tell (
those of you still reading), my obsession with Tango is alive & well
after 9 years. Nothing else could induce me to write so much. In
conclusion to the original question: "What is Tango?" It is something
that kept me going at the worst period of my life. Something that I look
forward to learning more & more about in this new millenium, to meet many
new people, & of course, to have many more "perfect dances".
May we all learn to accept one another, & together enjoy this wonderful
something known as TANGO.
Mark Celaya
http://home.att.net/~mark-joan-tango
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:01:47 +0100
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Online tango bibliography.
Hi all,
One of the resources of online tango bibliographies
(french, spanish, english) with some hyperlinks is at:
http://perso.club-internet.fr/tango/INDEX.HTML
under tango bibliography.
rajan.
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:42:54 -0500
From: aaanetserv <enrico @AAANETSERV.COM>
Subject: Re: "NEW" VS. "OLD" TANGO
Larry:
> "Corazon"? Now that has possibilities. After all, at
> the bottom of the first page of my Web site I put "Tango is not in the
> feet. It is in the Heart." And "corazon" means not only heart but also
> the core or the essence of something. I could call myself "Larry de Los
> Angeles, el patron de Tango Corazon."
>
> By George, I think I'm on to something.
Hi Larry,
you are really into something, the first thing three years ago the taxi
driver that was taking me to my very first tango lesson in Buenos Aires
told me was:
"recuerda, el tango se bailla con el corazon y la cabeza, ma el corazon
es premiero" (you dance tango with your hart and your mind, but your
hart comes first) (c) 1997 anonymous taxi driver in BA.
If you give me a discount on your private lessons fee I can arrange for
you a license to use this man wisdom Let's see, I take the 60 seconds
"authentic dancing" version, which means that at 100 dollar per hors you
shoud normally charge $1.67. i will settle for 95 cents.
By the way, are you really planning to get reach with this?
Ciao,
Enrico
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:25:42 -0800
From: "Pelayo Llamas, Jr." <pelayojr @LANMINDS.COM>
Subject: Re: Forever Tango soundtrack
I have a cassette recording of a single CD from the 1995 San Francisco
stint. It is of poorer sound quality. There is lots of ambient noise (hiss
not just due to the cassette) compared to my double CD "Broadway" edition.
I say go for the latter.
>
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 20:06:39 -0800
From: Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy.zelaya @ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: What is bothering you?
Dear Sergio,
First of all, I ask of you (and everybody else reading this)
to take what I am about to say in the spirit in what it
is being said, that is, as if we are sitting at a cafe
table sipping some wine or a cafe con leche, chatting
away in a warm summer night.
Sergio, your deduction of my message is wrong. I do not advocate
censorship nor am I proposing the curtailing of free discourse
on this forum on any topic related to Tango (that job is already
taken ;-) *Specially* Tango history which I believe everybody
who claims to love Tango should make a point to learn --but
that is just my opinion. Anybody who has a question should ask.
However, just because it is easier to type the question
than it is to search for an answer in the archives or a book
doesn't mean that one should do so. The gist of my message
was that if you want to know about Tango history you should
read books about it written by historians, not rely on the
hearsay, talltales, or downright misinformation one can
read on the list day in day out. I also asked the "experts"
to exercise restrain and know what they were talking about
before responding to the questions. My message was not meant
to be a direct attack on either you or Natarajan. Believe you
me, if I ever flame you there will be no need for you to
deduct anything, you'll know it... ;-)
You ask what bothers me. I'll tell you. What bothers me is
the spreading of misinformation, half-baked ideas, or the
unrestricted disemination of speculations cloaked by a veil
of erudition or professed scholarship that is all too common
on this list.
This is an international forum with 1000+ readers. I'll venture
to say that most of those readers have very little knowledge
about Tango history beyond the cliche "tango came from brothels,
danced by whores and pimps, rescued by the europeans, accepted
by the Argentine middle class, now world phenomenon". Granted,
I have no way to prove that, but I use empirical evidence from
the caliber of the questions that are asked, the replies that are
sent, and the fact that seldom if ever anybody corrects anybody
else even when the mistakes are so obvious that a blind man
could throw a reverse gancho thru them.
Thus, when someone comes on line and says things --specially with
an air of authority, or heaven help us, AN ARGENTINEAN-- everybody
gets excited and takes the words at face value without ever
bothering to ask whether it is really true or even if it makes
any sense at all.
This, sadly, is not a new phenomenom on this list. Let me quote
something that Acho Manzi wrote to me on a whole different
thread back in May 1996. The amazing thing is that he could have
been commenting about this thread and not change a word (except
for the fact that I didn't have to translate the messages into
Spanish).
"The one who wrote that which you translated --and I beg your
pardon for given you more work-- has me deeply worried. He is
talking and saying mixed up things, without sense and --what's
worse-- without historical sense. What does he base his opinions
on to write on such an international list as this one without
knowledge of what he is saying? What books has he read to know
about the past, and what kind of authority does he have? History
is not written from the present to the past, it is written from
the past to the present. His writings are a danger because he
confuses people."
"This nonsense should not be let out as is to the world. There
are people that have clearer ideas. I am nobody to say so
but it gives me sorrow because people are already pretty confused
and excited as it is. This nonsense... all it does is confuse
and incites people who don't know into making more errors based
upon this misinformation. It doesn't really matter that the medium is so
cheap that it begs everyone to write. You have to know what you are
writing about. Or have the patience to say what one likes, without
disguising it as history of what one thinks one knows. That's not it.
The person who wrote this has to restrain himself, not get excited, make
some kind of dialog to attract those who wish to respond or disagree,
instead of bringing on barbs like mine. Everything he said has no sense.
There's got to be some responsibility when one puts ones ideas on the
table."
One more thing Sergio, don't get too smug because someone sends
you a private message "congratulating, asking for more subjects,
and also many publications from Europe and North America asking
permission to reproduce some of the notes." I get those too.
Here's one I received today (with apologies to the sender for
disclosing it),
Dear Ruddy:
I read your recent rant, and agree heartily.
It's always cheering to know others harbor similar feelings to one's own.
Today I find "What is Bothering You?" from Sergio Suppa on Tango-L;
it is an excellent example of the kind of "S*HT" you complain of.
Some people can't learn.
Sigh...
:^)
Chau,
----
ruddy
"There are too many people walking around thinking
they're sacred cows," complained sports journalist
Rosie Dimanno, "and they're only half right."
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:51:54 -0500
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: inspiration & Yo-Yo Ma
Yo-Yo Ma's probes with Tango were inspired by the N/um chai, Bushman
music from the Kalahari desert, also known as a trance dance that is
40,000 years old (Harvard Magazine, March-April 2000, p.49). According
to Ma, it is a "synthesis of music and religion, a meditation, a gift
from heaven". After visiting the Kalahari Yo-Yo Ma decided to try to
play different kinds of music. Tango "has that incredible tight rhythmic
sense, but also the Italian rubato and the erotic tensions which that
creates. That's what makes you go nuts!"
The article "Yo-Yo Ma's Journeys" is worth reading. I quoted losely from
it.
What made you dance tango? Do you feel you found courage to get on a
dance floor, or begin playing the music, or was it a need you had to
satisfy?
Eugenia
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:28:21 -0500
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: latest opinions on history
Dear list!
If any of you read a history book on tango or anything else and take it
for the face value, you are not being realistic! History is written and
re-written constantly and continuously!!!! Just listen to today's
political debates and think what will your children read in their
history book, their children, their great-grand children, etc.? Opinions
cannot be restrained. Who's opinion will be preferred by the powers
above at the moment? Who will be published? Argentina is populated by
people who wrote history, and other people who re-wrote it 30-50 years
later. Certainly not a new approach to history.
I appreciate those of you who share with us your enthusiasm for and
research about tango. More information is helpful. Interpretation of any
information depends on our personalities and experiences. How can one or
another opinion change that? If your knowledge is above and beyond the
posting, more power to you. Please, listeros, keep expressing
yourselves.
Eugenia
End of TANGO-L Digest - 16 Mar 2000 to 17 Mar 2000 (#2000-74)
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