The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 15 Mar 2000
to 16 Mar 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 03:00:05 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 15 Mar 2000 to 16 Mar 2000 (#2000-73)
There are 12 messages totalling 595 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. How women learned to dance - II (2)
2. TANGO WITH JOY
3. Tango & country-western & Etiquette (2)
4. Any fights at the milongas?
5. "La bien paga" from Canaro?
6. Tango & country-western
7. Women learning Tango (Re: Men dancing together in the past)
8. Tango definition
9. Fights at Milongas
10. What have I been doing?
REMINDER: Announcements of Tango events or products should be sent to
Tango-A and not to TANGO-L. To subscribe to Tango-A, send the
command "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:38:07 +0100
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: How women learned to dance - II
Original Message-----
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @infovia.com.ar>
Date: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 7:17 PM
>Pelayo Llamas Jr. wrote,
>
>." But what I find hard to accept so readily is that women only danced
>when men led them in brothels or bars. The level of women's tango
never
>would
>have gotten very far if it was limited to these encounters."
>
>100% right!!!
>Of course they did not. Things that are obvious at these latitudes are
not
>readily understood in other places.
>They were professional dancers. They were extremely skillful when it
came to
[skip]
>Those women were professional dancers and ... more; as discussed
before.
This is beginning to sound more reasonable. Now, I am
curious where they got their 'professional' certificates.
Not by dancing at the bars since by this time they
were 'professional'. It is also doubtful there was at
the time(late 18xx, early 19xx) any academy of argentine
tango since it was not really the dance of the sons of the
soil but of immigrants and it was socially unacceptable.
This also rules out women having learnt it at home from
their *fathers* -- at least in the early days.
So, either they learnt it from men who taught it in private,
Or, they learnt it from other women -- they were more or less
like courtesans(ok, not really) who may have even learnt it from
their *mothers* or others like themselves. So, it still seems
very reasonable(to me anyways) that women practiced together.
Although it is could be very true that all the 'new' moves were added
in by men(since from your previous postings it would seem 'macho'
men would not have a woman lead them). May be both the dance
and the dancers evolved together(i.e., dance itself was probably
simpler in the beginning --getting more intresting as new things
were tried out).
rajan.
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:49:54 +0000
From: Laimute <laimute @LINTEL.LT>
Subject: TANGO WITH JOY
Hello list,
..."Tango is a sad feeling that can be danced"... - what about joyfull
feeling?
Salsa dancers thinks, it's similar to funeral (as it was mentioned
before)...
Our teacher (from Uruguay) says, that AT is a serious thing,
and if a women, dancing tango is smyling or grining,
she can insult the man, who is leading her !
Is it really tango emotions are limited with dark, sad feelings?
...But, then I tango with my sweatheart, I feel lucky, I feel hot...
so hot, like dancing Mamba or Samba !
Of course, I do not twisting and waving my body like in these dances,
that's all in my face, in my eyes, in my heart...
I do not rejecting "sad tango",
understand, respect and dance it as well, but
I only want to dance ALL emotions with tango.
What do you think, what's your experience?
Respectfully,
LAIMA
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:48:34 +0000
From: Felix Delgado <felixmilonguero @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango & country-western & Etiquette
Joe Grohens wrote:
>How many people on the list have been at a Country Western bar and seen
the
>dancing erupt into a fight? I played bass guitar in a Country band and
>witnessed it fairly often (maybe they didn't like our music!) :-)
>
>Have also noted fighting in blues clubs and salsa clubs.
>
>Never witnessed anything close to a physical altercation at a milonga in
>the U.S., but tango lore would be quite different without the knife.
>
>Do we have fights at milongas in the U.S. or do we just save it for
>cyber space?
>
I've been reading all this discussion about etiquette at milongas where
people complain about the wrong way to ask for or decline a dance, or
whether or not a woman should be escorted back to her seat, and then I
read about descriptions about fighting in country & western bars, blues
clubs and salsa clubs and I wonder "What the hell are tangueros
complaining about?" Is there really so much rudeness at milongas that it
disrupts the atmosphere? The people I've met at milongas have mostly been
polite. The few that aren't are usually recognized by the community and
can either be ignored or be confronted with the power of the spoken word
rather than the fist.
Michael Kern wrote:
>I'm not sure why people don't seem to fight at US milongas; but my
guesses
>are 1)they are older 2)they are usually professionals, not particularly
>comfortable with being hit 3)It is a hobby, similar to bridge, not the
major
>avenue for making sexual contacts 4)its artificial, an imported yuppie
>indulgence, not the main or only thing that makes the rest of the week
>bearable.
Does this apply to general politeness as well? I think there are a lot of
educated professionals doing tango, but I'm not sure about the other
possible causes of politeness. For example, I believe that for many
tangueros, it is a "major avenue for making sexual contacts" and it is
"the main thing that makes the rest of the week bearable", but that's
another topic. Are tangueros older? In my tango community, most people
are in their 20s and 30s. I don't usually go to country & western bars,
but the few times I've ventured in, the crowd seems older. Of course, I'm
sure they vary in demographics. I may get damned for saying it, but at
least in the US, country and western dancing is usually for working class
people with less education. I think one of the main reasons there is
fighting at country & western bars and not at milongas is that there is
more drinking at the former. Several of the places I've gone to tango
don't even serve liquor, and for the few I've been to that do, most
people drink very little, if any at all.
Anyway, tango in the US appears to be primarily an activity of educated
professionals who don't drink. It's a nice environment. Maybe we can
clean up our manners a bit, but all things considered, it's a pretty
healthy environment for social activity and we should promote that and
not get overconcerned about pleasing Miss Manners.
Felix D.
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:25:40 -0600
From: Chris Humphrey <humphrey @MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tango & country-western & Etiquette
I've been dancing in bars and dance halls since
high school (mid 60s) and at milongas for the past
four years. NEVER, in 35 years of dancing in
public places, have I seen a fight -- not even
here in Texas where concealed weapons are legal.
This is not to say they don't happen, but I've
never witnessed one. Maybe that's because I'm too
busy dancing, which is why I go to these places in
the first place (which sort of bears out my
personal philosophy -- if more people were
enjoying themselves on the dance floor, fewer
people would be shooting each other).
Just my two cents worth.
chris humphrey
Chris Humphrey
Biomedical Engineering Program
The University of Texas at Austin
Austin, TX 78712
512-471-1826 (phone); 512-471-0616 (fax)
"People don't stop dancing because they get too
old; People get too old because they stop
dancing." ANON
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:44:21 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Any fights at the milongas?
Somebody wrote:
"How many people on the list have been at a Country Western bar and seen
the
>dancing erupt into a fight? I played bass guitar in a Country band and
>witnessed it fairly often (maybe they didn't like our music!) :-)"
Country-Western dances fights are not uncommon; this is so frequent that
the house has to have several bouncers at hand to maintain some order. This
correlates with elements that were shared by tango in its early period;by
the end of last century.
Low socio-economical condition of patrons and the expenditure of alcoholic
beverages.
I wish to make clear that this is not generalized when it comes to CW today;
there are beautiful CW clubs that attract mid and high class patrons.
(more frequent in the west and south than in the north-eastern part of the
USA.)
By the end of last century it was common for tango dances to end up in
knive fights. The compadritos shared with the cowboys their tendency to
drink heavily and look for fights. Actually a gaucho is the Argentinean
equivalent of the American Cowboy. Compadritos were defined as "degenerated
gauchos"; a bad gaucho, displaced from rural areas to the city outskirts. A
hibrid of gaucho, gringo and black. Here gringo means foreign, non
Argentinean.
He would start fights very easily; he would insist that somebody has to
drink with him, if the person refuses, he will try to force him to do
it; -"let's drink my friend, why is that you don't drink?, is that because I
am poor?, I want you to know that I am not less than anyone! I'll fight
anyone that dares me!," as soon as the other one answers any word that could
offend him; he takes he knife out and leaves his mark,- a cut on the face.
Drinking heavily has been out of favor in Argentina for many decades, since
1930 on.Beginning of fascist, military government). To get drunk has been
something very shameful, something seen only in the very poor, the ignorant,
the immigrant. This naturally decreased the tendency to fight in the
Milongas.
Fights in milongas in Bs. As. are extremely rare today. The most common hint
that is given somebody unwanted is to bounce him while he is dancing, and
then look at him as if he was guilty of the collision.
Drinking heavily is a habit that is nowadays spreading very fast among the
young.Thet drink beer instead of wine as it was prefered by their
ancestors. This, in some way correlates with democracy and global economy.
Why? :-)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:05:32 +0100
From: rummel <wein.rummel @NIKOCITY.DE>
Subject: "La bien paga" from Canaro?
Hello list,
Does anybody know the tangovals-version of "La bien paga" from Canaro?
Can
you find it on CD or on LP, and which is the title of the CD / LP?
Thanks,
Jochen
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:14:12 +0100
From: Peter Niebert <Peter.Niebert @IMAG.FR>
Subject: Re: Tango & country-western
Michael Kern writes:
> I'm not sure why people don't seem to fight at US milongas;
Outside the literature (Borges) and the glorious past, do people fight
on milongas anywhere? I cannot recall a single incident anywhere.
> but my guesses are
> 1)they are older
> 2)they are usually professionals, not particularly
> comfortable with being hit
One explanation: I think, they limit their alcohol consumption, or
otherwise they just cannot dance. It was very rare that I have seen
regular dancers really drunken (and then they did not dance). Men take
a lot of effort to be attractive to women and the other way around. If
they allowed themselves open physical aggression against rivals, this
would appear as a weakness.
What you can observe is more subtle. Men compete, they show off, they
are machos. A macho does not even need to fight another one, he aims
to show his superiority, ideally by not even having to show it
(because it is so obvious).
> 3)It is a hobby, similar to bridge, not the major
> avenue for making sexual contacts
> 4)its artificial, an imported yuppie
> indulgence, not the main or only thing that makes the rest of the week
> bearable.
Tango to many people in Europe (I cannot judge for the US, but what I
read on this list suggests it is similar) is for sure not a "hobby",
and for sure to many people it IS the major thing to make life
bearable (many singles, many divorced, ...).
On the other hand, it may not be an easy route to sexual contacts if
that is what you are looking for. There are much easier routes,
including some other dances (Salsa/Merengue for instance).
And this may indeed have to do with the "import" character. In Europe
and the US, if people stick to the Tango, they probably dance more or
less well. People who just look for contact and take little interest
in the dance itself eventually drop out.
In the golden age in contrast, where hundreds of thousands of
portenos and portenas danced Tango, it is hardly conceivable that many
of them danced better than the millions of European teenagers dance
Techno today (please forgive the comparison), the motivation of going
to these venues being similar: Holding somebody close to you in a
socially accepted way.
Likewise, my parents generation went out to dance a lot in post-war
Germany, also because the lack of intact housing made it difficult to
meet the other sex in private (under the eyes of the parents or the
landlady widowed by war).
Nevertheless, there are "things" going on between present day Tango
dancers also beyond the dance floor as you can observe if you open
your eyes. But I assume this is - with some exceptions - more often
the unintended consequence of dancing than the reason why people
dance.
> I have sometimes wondered what would happen to a guy who came over to a
> table at a C-W bar, asked a woman to dance(who was seated with a guy), and
> then proceeded to dance "close embrace". In a lot of places, if he got off
> the dancefloor, he wouldn't get out of the parking lot!
And you say that people hope to find sexual contacts at C-W events!?
Peter
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:14:26 +0100
From: Peter Niebert <Peter.Niebert @IMAG.FR>
Subject: Women learning Tango (Re: Men dancing together in the past)
Pelayo Llamas, Jr. writes:
> The level of women's tango never would
> have gotten very far if it was limited to these encounters.
> [...] I can imagine that some women really loved dancing and must
> have worked on it.
I don't claim any knowledge about Tango history. But if you dance even
today with the (relatively) old milongueras (say women who have
started to dance in the fifties and still dance today) you will notice
that their skills are very different from those of the modern female
dancers. What they do is much more subtle, much more on the
"communication" level, much less on beautiful execution.
So why not assume that they basically learned dancing by dancing (even
if the very first steps may have been done with relatives, as some
claimed). And what is wrong about it? If they "worked" the Tango, then
surely in a different way than many ambitious women work the Tango
today.
***
A present day example on the difference in learning between men and
women. In some unnamed German Tango community there is an Argentine
man teaching. They say he is a brilliant dancer and a lousy
teacher. What is the result: There are now some extraordinary female
dancers (who learned more by dancing with him than from his classes),
but the men don't advance much.
Anybody knows that the fastest way for women to get into the dance is
to dance with good leaders (the opposite construction does not work
that well). I have seen women after no more than three month of
dancing without ever taking classes dance better than other women
having taken classes for several years. Why? Because they were
talented, charming and attractive and came to dance a lot with the
best dancers of the community. Also, these women are often more open
for following than some "overqualified" ladies with years of
classes. Maybe they are the modern milongueras (as opposed to
"dancers").
I think it is realistic to assume that it worked like that in the old
days too. Women learned by dancing with men (and men also learned by
dancing with men). The distinguishing aspect of Tango, that it is a
dance more lead than any other couple dance, has to do with this
asymmetry. Tango has been created by men in such a way that women
could learn it "just by dancing". A good follower can execute the most
complex figures she has never even seen before, if lead well.
Nothing of this is meant to diminish the role of the woman in the
dance (more precisely: social dance; in stage Tango the role of the
woman is probably even harder and more important than that of the
man). It does not mean that they do not have to learn the dance, to
the contrary. It does not mean that their dance cannot grow and grow
forever. Finally, it does not mean that there is no reason for women
to take classes, even to improve their social dancing. But a woman
having access to good leaders will need much less classes than a woman
who has not, in particular in the first year.
Peter
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:47:03 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Tango definition
Robert Hink , originated a most interesting discussion, "What is Tango?, he
asked and then he concluded:
"Having said that, I will offer my best answer which no doubt is
inadequate. I think if it walks like tango and talks like tango,
then it is tango."
Tautonomico, pleonasmico - Castilian offers two words in reference to
definitions using redundant words that mean the same.
Ex. A hemorrhage of blood. Hemo in greek already means blood. Salt is salty
and water is aqueous.The wind is windy.
Tango is tango. If I was to use a simple definition of tango I would say,
"It is a dance, music and lyrics originated in the Rio de la Plata Area."
My characterization of tango by 10 main differences was generally accepted .
There were two main objections.
1- Ball-room dances can also have syncopations or dysrrhythmic steps. I
agree, but this is not their main characteristic.
Obviously in this respect, tango can be differentiated.
2- Not always tango is sad. I agree, it can be light, fun and upbeat. It was
this way, at the beginning, when it was written in a 2/2 notation, when the
flute was part of the orquestra. Later on, the music was written in 4/4, the
flute was removed, the bandoneon was added. This changes caused the music to
slow down, to become more melancholic. This expression adjusted better to
the cultural mood.
Other subjects: a)To dance, using tango choreography to other non tango
music. This was previously discussed, it may be done.It is a question of
taste. When you do that, you are doing just that, but you are *not* dancing
Argentine Tango. But you may say, if you wish, that you are dancing
A.Tango.Certainly you should do it, if it makes you feel well.
b) If the women at the "Dancing houses", were professional dancers, who
certified them?
*Nobody*. Nobody certifies a tango dancer, not even today. Professional
means that dancing tango is her occupation, the way she makes a living.
Chau, milongueando en Mar del Plata. :-)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:19:02 -0600
From: Tom Ronquillo <chitiger @MAIL.DAVE-WORLD.NET>
Subject: Fights at Milongas
Fights at U.S. milongas are rare or nonexistent because the dominant
(meaning non-Latin) culture discourages such rude antisocial
behavior. Thirty-five years ago in Chicago, every Latin social dance I
attended included at least one fight or physical posturing of some
sort. The altercations were mostly over man-woman jealousy issues and
occasionally about whether someone from another neighborhood or youth gang
or other Latin nationality had a right to be present. This was, after all,
in a time before we discovered how to celebrate cultural diversity.
Men were not always the combatants. Women were just as likely to fight
given the right stimulus, such as witnessing their man dancing too closely
with a beguiling woman. If we were to apply the social dance code from
years ago to modern day milongas, we would see fights galore. One of the
things that makes tango amazing is that it is possible to have several
close embrace dances with another person's partner and live to tell about it.
Years ago only another family member or a very close friend would be able
to dance with your partner. Strangers would never dare to ask in your
presence, and would have been rebuffed even if they tried. The trouble
began when the code was broken innocently, as when the dance request was
made by someone not realizing that the woman or man was "already spoken
for", or intentionally, as in the case where spite or jealousy was the
motivation. Contrast this with a comment I read a few years ago from a
woman and tango promoter in Chicago. She said: "When you come to a
milonga, you can forget about dancing with your spouse." My, how times
have changed.
Tom (El Tigre) Ronquillo
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:16:06 -0800
From: Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy.zelaya @ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: How women learned to dance - II
>>So, either they learnt it from men who taught it in private,
>>Or, they learnt it from other women -- they were more or less
>>like courtesans(ok, not really) who may have even learnt it from
>>their *mothers* or others like themselves. So, it still seems
>>very reasonable(to me anyways) that women practiced together.
<RANT>
For gads sake people, read a book. If you want to know more than
how to do the basic and want to immerse yourself in the history and
culture of Tango, the Tango-L should be your last resort not
your first or --pity you-- your *only* resource. There is so much
s*it spewing forth from the keyboards of some of the "experts" on
this list that you need wings to keep above it. Keep in mind
that free advice often times is worth just as much as you spent on it.
If you can read Spanish, there are literally thousands of books on
all topics of Argentine Tango ranging from the crass to the
metaphisical. There are dozens of bookstores on line that carry them.
Order some. If you only read English, the pickings are slimmer but
they are out there. To start, order a copy of "Tango: The Dance,
the Song, the Story" by Martin, Cooper and Azzi from Amazon.com or
BarnesAndNoble.com. For $23.96 you'll get accurate answers to
most of your questions and a book full of pretty pictures to boot.
As an added bonus, the book lists many other books in the bibliography
section that you can use as a guide on what to get next.
Don't keep asking the same tired questions discussed ad nauseum
many times before in this forum. It is boring. Put some effort and
read the FAQ and the archives. And if you decide to respond to a
question or comment, *pleeeaaazzzz* know what the heck you are
talking about before you go off prattling about things or speculating
about people, culture, customs, facts, or times about which you
don't know jack. Remember, it is not the things you don't know
that will kill you; it's the things you *think* you know that
ain't so that will do you in.
</RANT>
Chau,
---
ruddy
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:03:59 -0700
From: Chas Gale <Chuck.Gale @IHSENERGY.COM>
Subject: What have I been doing?
One leader wrote;
"3)It is a hobby, similar to bridge, not the major
avenue for making sexual contacts
4)its artificial, an imported yuppie
indulgence,"
Another leader wrote;
" it may not be an easy route to sexual contacts if
that is what you are looking for. There are much easier routes,
including some other dances (Salsa/Merengue for instance)."
Bridge? Artificial? Not sexual? Gee. It's pretty clear I'm not leading the same
dance you guy's are. Guess I'll have to go back and start all over. :-(
Chas, Denver, CO. USA
End of TANGO-L Digest - 15 Mar 2000 to 16 Mar 2000 (#2000-73)
*************************************************************