The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 7 Mar 2000
to 8 Mar 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 03:00:05 -0500
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 7 Mar 2000 to 8 Mar 2000 (#2000-65)
There are 14 messages totalling 656 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Why Improvisation?
2. manners+
3. Etiquette (3)
4. Etiquette - The Spanish solution
5. Questions about movie
6. tango kids
7. another perspective [WAS Re: More rudeness]
8. NA-E Tango concert
9. Reducing the "rejection rate"
10. MASCULINE TANGO
11. Julio Balmaceda & Corina de la Rosa in Colorado
12. Same sex tango dancing
13. Tango etiquette and hurt feelings...
14. Off topic - but interesting
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 23:54:30 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Why Improvisation?
Improvisation is an essential part of the Argentine tango, as various
people have pointed out in TANGO-L, the latest of them being Steve
Brown. But all social dancing is necessarily improvisational. What's
so special about tango improv, & why?
The answers revolves around tango music. All other kinds of social
dance music are "rhythmic" - there is a set rhythm & dancers are
locked into it. Much of the fun of this kind of dancing is responding
to the rhythm. Tango music is "rhapsodic" - not without structure, but
much more free-form. The result is that tango dance can be an entire
order of magnitude more improvisational than any other kind of social
dance. It's like modern/jazz dance in its freedom.
The rhapsodic aspect of tango music shows up in several ways. First,
tangos do not have to played in what ballroom dancers call Strict
Tempo. The tempo can vary within a piece, perhaps starting slowly &
speeding up gradually, maybe suddenly slowing down at the very end. Or
maybe having alternating slow- & fast-tempo sections.
A more radical technique is to change signatures in the middle of a
piece, which some old tangos did, changing from 4/4 time to 3/4 time &
back again.
Most rhythmic dance music uses a single instrument to mark the beat &
the rhythm. But tango orchestras are free to use different instruments
- within the same piece - to do this. They might start with the left
hand of the piano, then switch to the bass violin. They might use a
higher-pitched instrument, say a violin playing a very fast triplet
for each beat instead of single quarter note on a bass line. An
orchestra might combine more than one instrument into a single
harmonic line to mark the beat & rhythm. And it may abandon the
marcata entirely, making the dancers respond to an IMAGINED beat &
rhythm.
You've probably noticed that I keep saying beat AND rhythm. In most
social dance those two are identical. In tango music, however, they
may be different.
The beat is a sort of metronome. Like a heartbeat, the tempo of the
beat may change during a piece of music, from slower to faster & back
again. But it's always there, even when it's implied and the dancer
has to imagine it. When the dance starts the leader establishes the
beat, but it is the responsibility of the follower to keep it.
The leader is responsible for the rhythm. That is, on top of the beat
the leader will - at often irregular intervals - change how the
partners move to the beat. In other words, he will change the rhythm
from (say) a default steady SLOW-SLOW to a SLOW-SLOW-Quick-Quick. Both
dancers will dance to this new rhythm for a shorter or longer time.
Then (usually) he will go back to the regular rhythm, letting the
follower resume moving to the beat.
Alternatively (& possible, but not easy, to lead) he may change her
rhythm back to a steady one identical to the beat, but keep to a
different one. An example is when he's leading her in backward ochos,
& for each single step she takes he does a triple step. (It's not
unusual to see this when they are dancing a tango vals, where she
takes one step on the ONE beat & he takes a step on each beat of the
ONE-two-three rhythm.)
So this is why tango is much more improvisational than other social
dances. It should also give you a hint of why developing very good
leading & following skills are more important in tango dancing
than in any other kind!
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
P.S. This is actually a simplification. Dancing & music are so
intertwined that I have no doubt that dancers influenced band leaders
& composers into making tango music more rhapsodic, as well as vice
versa.
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Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:55:35 -0500
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: manners+
Jon's and Charles's responses to the "etiquette" made me think again: we
are responsible for our own behavior, be it a dance step, a polite
invitation, building up tango community on a positive note, etc., etc.,
etc. Somehow if we enjoy our own dancing and please others with our
skills, than we become happier ourselves and share our positive energy
with other tangueros creating the mood of happiness all around us.
So...back to dancing!
I must agree with these gentlemen, the number of steps people know "how
to execute" (perhaps it is my English as a second language that makes me
think of death when the word "execute" is used, I prefer using
expression "how to dance", when speaking of steps) does not matter to
me. When I dance with any man, the dance is giving me pleasure if we
move together with the music. Just walking is fine. Basic step is fine.
There are many tango dancers who prize themselves with the honorable
title of "advanced" because of the number of years they've been dancing,
or because of the number of steps they know, or because of the number of
good dancers they've danced with, or for any other quantitative reason.
Unfortunately QUALITY does not substitute quantity. Focusing on how to
perfect basic balanced graceful movements will make us better dancers.
And happier tango community members.
Eugenia
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:07:17 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Etiquette (3)
Bob Hink wrote:
>I did the posting, because I'm interested in growing the
>tango community, as I think we all should be. Rudeness,
>no matter how "honest", is not in keeping with this objective.
Maybe I am growing dense, but I am beginning to have difficulty
understanding the agenda being advanced. Many people can look for
rude behavior at milongas, criticize others, and then decry its effect
on growth of the tango community or some other lofty goal. If this
rude behavior is as widespread and as destructive as Bob suggests, the
tango community would not exist.
What effect will discussions on Tango-L about rudeness will have an
effect on interpersonal behavior at milongas? Are the people on Tango-L
the ones who have been rude at milongas? Are we so influential that
whatever we say goes? Would our agreement or acquiesence create a sense
of backing for those who would like to be etiquette police at milongas?
My difficulty with the rules Bob advanced to combat rudeness is that they
actually encourage rude invasive behavior on the part of those who ask
others to dance and put the entire burden of behaving nicely on those who
are asked to dance. As the co-host of a practica, I once had to meet with
a man who was destroying the practica because he chased women away through
his unwanted and creepy attention.
Graciela Gonzalez has called tango the history of love, for three minutes.
Should those being asked to dance be required to share the history of love
with anyone who comes along and invades their space? The traditions in
Buenos Aires are that both man and woman consent to the dance--not because
the Argentines are cruel--but because they recognize that at all but the
superficial level the dance is an expression of intimacy.
Why convert Argentine tango to a superficial experience? Ballroom tango
already exists. ;-)
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 14:08:44 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Etiquette - The Spanish solution
After reading many postings on this subject one has to reach a conclusion:
There are two main philosophical positions.
On one side we have those that are very altruistic and think that a person
should never decline an invitation, should try to dance with every one, even
those that are not interesting, or physically attractive, or good dancers.
Here the ones that are at the "lower" end will receive the benefit of
dancing with people that are younger, more attractive and good dancers.
Every one will spend a nice time except that the ones at the other end will
feel "used", obligated to provide a service, to do some form of charity
work.
On the other side we have the less altruistic ones; that go dancing to enjoy
themselves; dancing with the persons that they like, the ones that are at
their same level physically, intellectually and with respect to dancing
skills. They do not wish to do charity work. They wish to reserve the right
to reject unwellcome invitations.
In this setting everyone can also have fun as long as each one is realistic
with respect to whom they should dance with.
People of similar "level" of dancing skill, age and intellectual
attractivness.
The problem arises when people are not realistic. They try to impose
themselves to the younger, more attractive, excellent dancer.
From the perspective of this second group; the place to improve our dancing
skills is at the practicas. Dances usually held after tango lessons. The
milonga is a place to have fun; nobody should feel obligated to do charity
work. People should stay within the limits of their possibilities.
In some way, sooner or later, the average person gets to be in all the
possible situations; some are priviledged, they are beautiful and skilled
dancers, other are underpriviledged, have little or no physical beauty
and/or are awkward, clumsy dancers.
A fact of life! The world is not a perfect place and the milonga is not
going to change that.
Finally there are those that think that the ideal is a place in between,
somewhere the middle of the road.
One should have fun, dancing with those that he/she prefers, but at certain
time dedicate a little of themselves to those that are less fortunate, the
ones that are not dancing to make sure that they also have fun. Perhaps a
more reasonable approach.
*The Spanish solution*: some time ago while dancing in Madrid, spain I went
to San Paul and noticed that they have a group of people ( ladies and men)
young, attractive, very well dressed (the men in black tie), excellent
dancers. They are called "Public relations", their functions is to walk
around the dancing floor inviting to dance those that are not dancing.
Something interesting to think about. The girls dance for free the boys get
paid one dollar for every dance. The ladies buy the dancing tickets at the
entrance counter.
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 01:26:53 +0900
From: Sang Hyeon Chang <chang @BARAM.PHYS.TOHOKU.AC.JP>
Subject: Questions about movie
Hello Lists,
Recently I watched movie "Tango" and documentary
"Tango: The Obsession". It was actually second time for both.
I have a couple of questions about these movies,
First, in the "Tango" who is the young lady danced with Copes in the
Salon? I thought it was the Mia Maestro, heroine of the movie,
but I was wrong. Then I guessed she was Johana Copes. But in the
credit role, Johana was credited as a teacher. I think she was the
one who teaches tango to small kids. Then.. who was she?
Another one is about "Tango: The Obsession", there are lots of
tangueros who were interviewed and talked about history and
essence of tango. There were always a small subtitle which contains
his or her name (or nickname), like Facundo, Horacio Ferrer,
Copes, Facundo, Juan Burno, Carmencita, Tete... But I found out that
there was a one major charactor, an old Tanguero, and his name was
never came up. At the end, he talked about something like
"you see those kids out there, those are mine. And I am proud of them."
(which is about young tanguero/tangueras)
Does anyone know who he is?
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 16:28:31 -0500
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: tango kids
Does anyone know of Argentine tango classes for children outside of
Buenos Aires?
Thanks,
Eugenia
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:51:39 +0000
From: Carol Shepherd <shepherd @ARBORLAW.COM>
Subject: another perspective [WAS Re: More rudeness]
Charles Roques wrote:
...
> Some people don't dance very well but even worse
> they don't improve either. They remain bad dancers no matter how advanced
> they get. Usually because they either don't really pay attention or don't
> practice or, in most cases, they get seduced by new steps and never bother to
> perfect their basic steps.
> What is comfortable or uncomfortable about a partner is the way in which they
> execute their basic steps. When I feel someone improving I will return to
> dance with them. If they don't seem to progress I will eventually lose
> interest. I know women who still can not do ochos or molinetes correctly
> after two years or more of classes, not to mention a trip to Buenos Aires and
> a few workshops as well. After a while I just don't enjoy dancing with them.
> I seek out the dancers that are trying to improve themselves.
> I think there are too many bruised egos that need easy gratification. Tango
> is difficult and takes patience and practice. People that practice get
> better. If you want to dance with the better dancers, then you should become
> a better dancer yourself. There are many, many exercises you can do without a
> partner that will help.
>
> If you are going to attempt to learn a dance as sophisticated as this then
> you should be prepared to pay your dues.
Amen on the dancers who can't be bothered to improve but I think having
partners and opportunities to dance regularly is the key to consistent
improvement. I think the tango lead is far more idiosyncratic from man
to man than any other dance so it is crucial for beginner women to get
exposed to as many leader styles as possible or she will learn one man's
lead and be thrown off by someone else's approach.
You can practice basic building blocks by yourself but that only gets
you so far. I can say from years of experience in other dances that not
getting regular opportunities to dance all the way through a tango with
a leader makes me a rusty follow. I have had two men get very
aggravated with me for not doing molinetes so well any more, there are
only beginner leaders where I go practice so my molinete is not as good
as it used to be because they don't lead it. I agree with Charles,
tango demands more practice to keep the skill level current, but this
may depend on what milongas or other opportunities you have and what
partners you can find who will dance with you when you are there.
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw Associates PLLC
Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
734 668 4646 v 734 663 9361 f
business, technology, entertainment
and new media law
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:24:26 -0500
From: Fernandez Eduardo <efernandez @IUCNUS.ORG>
Subject: NA-E Tango concert
Hola Listeros
Here a great oportunity to listen good tango music with Raul Jaurena (New
York Tango Trio)
Richmond Symphonic Orchestra and Raul Jaurena.
Richmond Simphony Pops
Let's Tango
Gerardo Edelsein, Conductor
Raul Jaurena, Bandoneon
Marga Mittchell, Vocalist
The concert will include the most famous argentinean traditional tangos and
Piazzolla music, arranged by Raul Jaurena for Bandoneon and symphonic
orchestra.
Marga Mitchell will sing Que Tango hay que cantar and Balada para un loco.
Saturday March 11. 8pm, at Carpenter Center for Performing Arts, Richmond,
Virginia
Sunday March 12, at 3pm same place.
TKT Master: 804-262-8100
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 07:46:41 -0500
From: Renee Dinsmore <tangogirl @RCN.COM>
Subject: Reducing the "rejection rate"
Dear List,
May I add to your discussion on etiquette that for a follower who has
passed beyond the beginner stage, it is by far preferable to dance with
a beginner who knows only the walk and salida but executes both well and
with balance than with one of Charles' afformentioned confirmed "bad
dancers". Another good thing about beginner leaders is that they are
generally open to constructive hints about where they could best place
their hand or how they can lead with their shoulders instead of pushing
their follower around. I love watching enthusiastic new tango
aficionados explore this new medium for personal expression. I will
encourage these beginners whenever I can.
Because of my concern for a tango community that is as welcoming as
possible, I will go to great length to not offend someone when I receive
an invitation that I do not choose to accept. I applaud those few
members of our community who pre qualify their invitation with a look
and a nod. I would suggest a checklist for the leaders when making
their approach.
1. Is she looking around, trying to catch someone's eye? If it isn't
you, she probably won't accept right now.
2. Is she watching the dance floor, not looking at available partners?
Maybe she is tired or doesn't want to dance.
3. Is she engrossed in conversation? Catching her eye will tell you if
she is ready to wrap that up to join you for a dance.
4. Has she not yet had time to remove her coat? You won't get a good
dance from her if you make her hurry to catch half of this song...
5. Is she looking right at you? With an encouraging smile? Now you can
ask!
I would be surprised if a little power of observation did not go a long
way in reducing the "rejection rate" and along with it the perceptions
of rudeness. It may be that you have inadvertently been asking at all
of the "wrong" times.
Many happy tangos to you all,
Renee from Boston
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:15:06 +0000
From: Laimute <laimute @LINTEL.LT>
Subject: MASCULINE TANGO
Hello list,
I wonder, if nowadays,
perhaps at Milongas,
man is inviting to dance another man.
Isn't it the business of Gays ?
I can't understande, how can man dance,
hold, lead another man without any
sexual senses.
Please, could you help me giving more information
about this old tradition?
Our teatcher, from Uruguay, tries to unite
male tango group here, in Lithuania,
but only gays, or some foreigners come.
Our people don't understand this kind of art.
I'd like to know, if male tango is something different,
than the dance of opposite sexes.
Something very strong .
Very masculine. And not homosexual.
Respectfully,
LAIMA
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 14:37:51 -0300
From: Nina <nina @EARTHNET.NET>
Subject: Julio Balmaceda & Corina de la Rosa in Colorado
Dear Tangueros,
Julio Balmaceda & Corina de la Rosa will be teaching in Colorado April
5-11, 2000.
This is the schedule of their classes:
Wednesday, April 5, 2000 7:30 - 9:00pm Tango - Intermediate
Thursday, April 6, 2000 7:30 - 9:00pm Tango - Intermediate
Friday, April 7, 2000 7:30 - 9:00pm Vals I - Intermediate
Saturday, April 8, 2000 11:30am-1:00pm Mens/Womens Technique I (separate)
2:30pm - 4:00pm Milonga - Intermediate
4:30pm - 6:00pm Tango - Beginning I
Sunday, April 9, 2000 11:30am-1:00pm Mens/Womens Technique II (separate)
2:30pm-4:00pm Tango - Musicality I/Dancing to different orchestral styles -
Int/Adv
4:30pm - 6:00pm Vals II - Intermediate
Monday, April 10, 2000 7:30 - 9:00pm Tango - Musicality II/Dancing to
different orchestral styles - Int/Adv
Location:
All classes will be held at The Logan Street Art Studios, 1836 Logan
Street, Denver, Co 80202. The parking is available either on the street
or north of the building in the fenced parking lot (north on Logan to 19th,
turn right on 19th, right into the alley anf right again into the fenced
parking lot).=20
Cost:
All classes are $25 except for the beginner class which is $20. There is a
10% discount for taking the entire series.
Milongas:
There will be two milongas during Julio's and Corina's visit. One will be
at the Mercury Caf=E9 on Friday, April 7, 2000, 10pm - 2:00am, and a special
milonga inaugurating a new dance space at The Logan Street Art Studios,
1836 Logan Street (between 18th and 19th on Logan) on Saturday, April 8,
2000, 11pm - 3am.
Please do not hesitate to e-mail me for more information.
Best Regards,
Nina
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:32:34 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Same sex tango dancing
Laima from Lithuania wrote:
"I'd like to know, if male tango is something different,
than the dance of opposite sexes.
Something very strong .
Very masculine. And not homosexual."
In the early times of Tango (1880-1920) Argentina had more men than women
due to an imbalance in immigration.
Tango was considered to be an indecent dance; so no woman of good reputation
would dance it.
Men gathered in bars, cafes, gambling and prostitution places where one of
the enterteinments was to dance among themselves. This custom continued for
the purpose of practicing and improving their skills, so that they could
later impress the ladies.
In modern times practice between persons of the same sex is encouraged in
order to get to know the moves and feeling of both the leader and the
follower.
This historical characteristic naturally attracts gay people to tango; this
is mostly seen abroad.
People of the same sex *never* dance together at the milongas, here in
Argentina.
Same sex tango dancing, is more frequent and better tolerated in some
countries of Europe.
This is not common in the USA, nor very well seen either.
This does not necessarily means that those people are gay, since there
are many straight persons that enjoy dancing with partners of the same sex.
There is nothing "Strong, or Very Masculine" about it; it is merely a
question of preference.
This is my opinion. There might be other views.
Sergio - Mar del Plata - Argentina
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:18:12 EST
From: "Stephen T. Chin-Bow" <CHIN-BOW @SACC.HSCBKLYN.EDU>
Subject: Tango etiquette and hurt feelings...
Dear Tango-L,
A few words on tango "etiquette" and hurt feelings.
I have been dancing the Argentine tango in New York City for slightly more
than four years, and in this time I have learned a lot about "etiquette"
from my personal experiences at milongas (and classes) and from listening
to stories friends have told me about their trips to BsAs and Europe. In
short, any person who is not willing to have his/her ego bruised a few times,
or who goes into tango expecting it to be easy (perhaps because s/he mastered
ballroom dancing) is not likely to have the patience or perseverance to
become a competent dancer. In life, having friends who can guide you during
your first few months in a new group activity is always helpful. The
Argentine tango is no exeception to this "rule".
In New York City, where I guess there are between 300-500 regular tango
dancers (people who dance at least twice a month) most people know the other
local dancers by sight, if not by name. People know when/how other people
like to be asked to dance (eg. by a direct request or by the "eye-look/nod"
method). For example, my friends know I prefer to dance to recorded music,
and later in the evening (when there are fewer "new" people colliding with
the other dancers). My friends know I also enjoy the "socializing" aspects
of a milonga as much (if not more) than the dancing. If I am talking to a
friend and a woman walks up to us and interupts the conversation I will
usually say "no', unless the conversation can be conveniently continued at a
later time. Some people attend milongas only to dance, which is a valid
approach, but it is not mine. I also go to socialize, and if a woman does
not accept this as an equally valid approach I do not care if she feels hurt
when I turn her down.
If a woman, who I have never danced with before, asks me to dance when a fast
milonga is playing I will usually say no (because too much can go wrong
between unfamiliar partners during a fast milonga). However, I will also try
to explain that I prefer that we wait until a slow recorded tango or vals
is played. Recently, a woman who has been dancing for only a few months in
New York City ask me to dance when a fast recorded milonga started playing.
I answered "no", but when I began to explain my "consistent" reason she put
up her hand as if she did not want to hear me. She behaved as if the only
word she heard was "NO" and she did not believe the sincerity of my reason.
I do not know if I will dance with her again, because we approach tango/life
in different ways.
What should a woman if she is new to tango or just visiting NYC? If she asks
me to dance when I am not ready I might say "No, but perhaps later". This is
not a complete rejection, because it leaves the possibility of a dance later
in the evening open. Perhaps she will watch me during the night and figure
out when and with whom I enjoy dancing.
It is usually later in the evening when I will go into "NYC tango ambassador"
mode. When the dance floor is emptier, that is when I might ask a new woman
to dance, especially if I have noticed that she has not danced much that
evening. If she has stayed until the end of the evening she may appreciate
that tango is not easy, but that the rewards are worth the waiting and work.
If I see women leaving early in the evening I may walk up to them and say the
dancing is better later in the evening and that they should stay if possible.
Am I making any sense?
In any new social situation it is safest to "look before one jumps". For
example, in a bar a man or a woman might look at another person before
walking up and saying hi. I think "body language" is very important. When
you attend a new milonga I would suggest going with a friend who has been
dancing a while (and who understands the group's dynamics). After you arrive
watching for a while can only be helpful. If you want to dance you can ask
the host for a few introductions to the "friendlier" dancers.
On my web site I have several sections which are relevant to the "etiquette"
discussion.
The suggested URLs are:
http://hallux.medschool.hscbklyn.edu/~chin-bow/BSASCODE.HTM
http://hallux.medschool.hscbklyn.edu/~chin-bow/PRACTICA.HTM
http://hallux.medschool.hscbklyn.edu/~chin-bow/MILONGAS.HTM
http://hallux.medschool.hscbklyn.edu/~chin-bow/APPROACH.HTM
http://hallux.medschool.hscbklyn.edu/~chin-bow/HOWTOASK.HTM
http://hallux.medschool.hscbklyn.edu/~chin-bow/NEWDANCE.HTM
http://hallux.medschool.hscbklyn.edu/~chin-bow/THANKYOU.HTM
http://hallux.medschool.hscbklyn.edu/~chin-bow/PETPEEVE.HTM
http://hallux.medschool.hscbklyn.edu/~chin-bow/NYCGREET.HTM
Ciao-
Stephen Chin-Bow
email: chin-bow @sacc.hscbklyn.edu
web: http://hallux.medschool.hscbklyn.edu/~chin-bow
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 00:16:48 -0500
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Off topic - but interesting
Those of you interested in the history of tango in the movies may find this
amusing. Others may not ...... (but that's what the "delete" key is for!)
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=273469218
Many happy tangos to you all,
Melinda
End of TANGO-L Digest - 7 Mar 2000 to 8 Mar 2000 (#2000-65)
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