The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 27 Jun 2000
to 28 Jun 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 27 Jun 2000 to 28 Jun 2000 (#2000-176)
There are 13 messages totalling 545 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Which freedom for women in tango ?
2. Let's hear the music and dance
3. Practice, practice (2)
4. women in classes (2)
5. Practice and practice
6. "Cristal" by Susana Rinaldi
7. Searching for performers for tango snow ball 2001
8. Tango at Bucharest?
9. women in classes.
10. favourite walking steps (2)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:44:41 +0200
From: Hangleiter Ralph <Ralph.Hangleiter @HYGIENE.SCA.SE>
Subject: Re: Which freedom for women in tango ?
Hi Michel,
You say the vision of the leader leading / the follower
leading the leader is two extremes. Looking at the
written sentence, it might be plausible, but imagine
yourself dancing. You are waiting for feedback of the
follower (as you don't want to run her over or move
her like a shopping cart in the super market (no offense,
ladies)) to see if she does what you lead her. And
if she does not, you react accordingly.
It can also mean that if she takes initiative, for example
by showing you she would like to move at a certain time,
and you allow it, that you really get into a "conversation".
I can assure you that is a very nice feeling and I think
many followers will agree that it is quite nice to have
the possibility to let out your own musical feeling.
Because sometimes it can be very frustrating for the
follower to feel the music differently - as we listen
to the same tango, but interpret it differently - and
having to follow the leaders musical feeling all the time.
But if you manage to get a balance - that's in my opinion
when you have really nice dancing experiences. Of course
that means also work for you - as Jean Francois says, you
have to stay alert and listen very carefully, because not
every follower gives strong signals (sometimes because they
are just not used to have this "freedom"), so it is more
like a whisper than a loud "I want to do this". But it is
rewarding.
Hope you don't see it as two extremes any more
Greetings from Sweden
Ralph
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:09:04 +0200
From: susanna meurer <s.meurer @TISCALINET.IT>
Subject: Let's hear the music and dance
Concerning what Jean-Pierre wrote about some people preferring music
without
lyrics while dancing:
what to say about men who whisper the lyrics of the song in your ear
while
you're dancing?
I danced with men who tried to seduce me with the lyrics, others who
adored
the song so they couldn't help singing along, and others who were so
familiar
with the music they weren't even aware of humming it during the dance.
I must say, it can be a very pleasant and intimate feeling (but, I also
admit
that the first categorie is quite risky....
So, please continue to play songs with all the lyrics - even if somebody
might
get a little bit distracted, who cares!
Susanna
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:38:41 -0700
From: Judith Farkas <judith @PARACEL.COM>
Subject: Re: Practice, practice
Dear List,
I see the problem that Melanie describes below all too often. Melanie is
also correct in her observation that it most often occurs that the leaders
( read men ) are critiquing women, under the guise of teaching them. At
our milonga in Los Altos, we consistently see the same, few, normally well
mannered gentlemen who persist in presuming that they can and should
instruct the ladies during a milonga. Truth be told, these gentlemen
often do not know how to lead that well, let alone teach a role that they
frankly do not fully understand. I often see them instructing and
demonstrating the follower's part in some grotesque, clearly incorrect
fashion. It is truly painful to observe. The sad part is that if they
tried something similar with me, a more experienced dancer and one who
understands a modicum of milonga etiquette, I would simply firmly suggest
to them that perhaps we could discuss the matter at a more suitable venue
such as a practica. BUT, these offenders never try this obnoxious
activity with me or any other woman who is more knowledgeable. They
always prey upon the women who do not know that these gentlemen have no
business teaching at all, much less at a milonga. The end result is that
these relatively new followers often become discouraged by all the
unsolicited criticisms as well as the conflicting instructions from the
various wannabe Tango instructors. Gentlemen, I realize that you intend
no harm, but if you feel that you are indeed, qualified to teach something
to a particular follower, then please do confine it to a practica, gain her
permission to show them something first, and do allow the followers at
large to enjoy the social aspects of the milongas and even a little time to
build their confidence.
For the ladies/followers, you might consider speaking up if someone is
instructing you, correctly or incorrectly during a milonga. Often, these
instructions are occurring on the dance floor and are at best, a traffic
jam and at worst a certain recipe for a traffic disaster. These
instructions, again should occur at lessons or practicas NOT at a social
event like a milonga. The other caveat that I would warn the ladies
about, is that you should really be quite selective about your
instructors. It is simply all too easy for you to pick up the most hideous
dance habits when you are listening to those who may not be qualified to
teach. Ultimately, do realize that you are entitled to the right to
politely decline unsolicited instructions at ANY time.
As a milonga host, I must say that I have never said anything to these
offending gentlemen as they, as I mentioned above, have never attempted to
instruct me, personally. If several of the women complained to me about a
specific person, then I might consider a polite discussion wherein I would
convey to the gentleman that several of the female guests had commented on
the unsolicited instructions as being undesirable. I suppose a less
directed option would be a group announcement to remind everyone that
teaching should occur at lessons and practicas, but not at milongas. In
the end, I do assume that since the instructions & critiques are occurring
between two adults that it is not normally my responsibility to police the
situation unless PERHAPS if there is a specific request to do
so. So,...again it is thus up to the peer pressure effect.
Well,...that is my two cents worth on the subject.
Judith
At 10:12 AM 6/23/00 -0700, Melanie Archer wrote:
>Good day, all,
>
>As a not-quite-beginner, not-quite-intermediate follower, I was of course
>interested in the list's
>discussion of an apparent gender gap in commitment to learning tango. It
>puzzled me that
>I didn't see mention of another reason for followers' hesitation to indulge
>in practicas: the
>unsolicited critiques we receive from leaders. I know that leaders also
>receive such verbalized
>performance judgements from followers, but I suspect these are less
>frequent. Unhappily, even the
>social atmosphere of a milonga will not deter the (self-)righteous from
>their tutoring. Given
>the choice of hazarding a tanda with partners who nag, or standing in the
>dark enjoying the
>music, who can blame us followers for lurking?
>
>
></mja>
>=============
>Melanie Archer
>melanie @metrius.com
Judith Farkas
Senior Account Manager
Paracel
3833 North First Street
San Jose, CA 95134
510.583.6175 Phone
650.766.7328 Cell
judith @paracel.com
www.paracel.com
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:21:38 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: women in classes
Manuel wrote:
>I had a candid conversation once with a well know and respected Argentine
>master. He told me that he hated to dance with the women at the places
>where he taught workshops because it made a lot of problems for the men in
>these communities. He said, they think they can really dance and do not
>realized how bad they are because I (or another master) can make them
>dance. When they dance with the men in their community, and they cannot
>follow, they'll say something like "I danced with so and so and I did it
>just fine!" or "so and so led me and I know that I can dance". They become
>convinced that they can dance very well and the men cannot so they stay
>away and blame the men.
I think this observation goes both ways. Susan and I have had the
experience of teaching a couple who were having difficulty executing a step
pattern together. I could lead Susan or the woman through the step pattern,
and the man could lead Susan through the step pattern, but the couple could
not execute the step pattern on their own. A poor and a sensitive receiver
can pick up a signal from a strong transmitter, and a sensitive receiver can
pick up the signal from either a weak transmitter or strong transmitter, but
a poor receiver cannot pick up a signal from a weak transmitter.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:54:48 -0500
From: mlips <mlips @PANGEA.CA>
Subject: Re: Practice, practice
Judith wrote:
"I suppose a less directed option would be a group announcement to remind
everyone that teaching should occur at lessons and practicas, but not at
milongas."
I think you are right on this point Judith. We have this point brought up at
just about every class and Milonga announcement. For the most part, I think
it works well. The only thing I would like to add on this is that it can be
a problem with both men and women, if students are not constantly reminded
that there is a time for practise and a time to just dance without
corrections or teaching. It is not just a male thing.
I think Stephen's observation is a very good point, and important for
students to understand that it takes time to be able to execute a movement
smoothly with your partner, even though you may feel comfortable dancing it
with an instructor.
"I think this observation goes both ways. Susan and I have had the
experience of teaching a couple who were having difficulty executing a step
pattern together. I could lead Susan or the woman through the step pattern,
and the man could lead Susan through the step pattern, but the couple could
not execute the step pattern on their own"
But, there are two questions that I still have. I have not seen anyone reply
to Sue's query about your favourite walking steps. I would like to see some
responses to that, as ours is also a very young Tango community with no role
models to watch.
My second question has to do with Russell's posting:
"Men like the close-embrace or milonguero
(sp?) style of Argentine tango more than women do. Women like the stage
style more."
In our community, I feel that this is definitely the biggest problem. It is
difficult to convey to women just how challenging it is to do correct walks,
ochos and giros.
My original enquiry was to see if anyone had discovered ways to offer women
the "magic" of the Tango, danced with a beautiful walk and embrace. I don't
feel it is just a matter of having the men developed enough to lead a
beautiful simple Tango.
I think that each person has to discover this "magic" on their own. I feel
that the man has an obvious and immediate challenge. For the lady coming
into Tango, this challenge is much more subtle. She may look at the walk and
say "okay, that's easy, I can walk, what's next?"
There must be ways of presenting the Tango to women, so that they also will
discover how beautiful the Tango can be, even if one can only walk an entire
dance.
Has anyone discovered original ideas that work?
Marie
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:09:37 EDT
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Practice and practice
Greetings,
Judith wrote"
>>>Melanie is...correct in her observation that it most often occurs that the
leaders
( read men ) are critiquing women, under the guise of teaching them. At
our milonga in Los Altos, we consistently see the same, few, normally well
mannered gentlemen who persist in presuming that they can and should
instruct the ladies during a milonga. Truth be told, these gentlemen
often do not know how to lead that well, let alone teach a role that they
frankly do not fully understand. I often see them instructing and
demonstrating the follower's part in some grotesque, clearly incorrect
fashion....It is truly painful to observe. ...They always prey upon the women
who do not know that these gentlemen have no business teaching at all, much
less at a milonga.
For the ladies/followers, you might consider speaking up if someone is
instructing you, correctly or incorrectly during a milonga. These
instructions, again should occur at lessons or practicas NOT at a social
event like a milonga. The other caveat that I would warn the ladies
about, is that you should really be quite selective about your
instructors.<<<<<<
Unfortunately Judith, the sad part is that none of those men read the Tango
list postings. We have some guys in New York that defy belief. You are
absolutely correct in that it is often the worst dancers that do the most
"teaching". I have even seen guys with only one or two classes trying to tell
a follower what they are doing wrong. There is one guy here that is so bad he
can hardly stand up without a cane and he is constantly instructing
beginners. Another more "advanced" one looks down at his feet so much that
his head is always in the way yet he insists on trying to dance close so the
woman's back is arched inward and she always appears to be trying to avoid
his head out of discomfort. This very same one has the nerve to offer private
classes. A good thing to keep in mind ladies. NEVER take privates offered by
anyone. A classic pick up scam. Good dancers don't have to solicit privates.
They are usually asked.
But the problem can also be seen in practicas. At one of my practices I asked
one guy to stop who was dancing with a very recent beginner and was trying to
force her to do ganchos, attempting sacadas and barridas and of course was
pretty awful himself. She was almost falling down. It is highly inappropriate
to attempt that stuff on novices. In fact it is more like being a tango
bully. A good dancer makes his partner feel comfortable, not inadequate.
Men are not going to change that easily so it really is up to the woman to be
discriminating. No matter how much of a beginner you are, if a man makes you
feel uncomfortable decline the next dance. You will probably learn more from
watching anyway, not to mention learn to pick out the better dancers. And if
you are with someone of your same level, unless you can mutually discuss your
shortcomings, always defer to an instructor. Practice on your own. It will
show in your movements and good respectful dancers will see it and ask you to
dance.
Unfortunately you can't avoid these characters, but you can certainly avoid
dancing with them a second time.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:16:40 -0700
From: Mark Celaya <mark-joan-tango @JUNO.COM>
Subject: "Cristal" by Susana Rinaldi
Richard Lipkin inquired (Sun, 6/25/00) regarding a live recording
(accompanied by piano) of "Cristal" by Susana Rinaldi.
There is a version with piano, called "Cristal" (En Vivo) on a new
release by Susana Rinaldi: "Milonga Por Tantas Cosas" ~ 40 Obras
Fundamentales (UNIVERSAL 542 600-2) ~ 2-CD set. Recorded in 1981;
orquesta directed by Jose Colangelo.
Price: $28.95 + $3.20 shipping
Regards,
Mark Celaya
Los Angeles
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Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:50:57 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Searching for performers for tango snow ball 2001
Tango in Cleveland has been outstanding this year with such stars coming to
teach as Daniel Lapadula y Dolores De Amo, Nito y Elba, Fernanda and
Guillermo, Jorge Nell y Mara Carlson, and Marcos Questas y Christy Cote',
Tioma Maloratsky and Katrina Zeno.
This years Tango Snow Ball was a smashing success, and are still talking
about it.
Everyone is asking me who will star in my tango Snow Ball 2001.
At this time, I don't know, but I better get started to plan it.
I would like to know what performer, teachers will be touring the United
States in either February or March in 2001? If you could please contact me
privately at this address, I would like to know and make some plans for Tango
Snow Ball 2001.
I would also like to thank Juan Fabri, Daniel Lapadula and Dolores De Amo for
bringing the television cameras of "Solo Tango" to the Cleveland area this
past weekend. Along with Nito and Elba performing tango, this was an
incredible weekend for tango. The people of Cleveland saw for the first time
a canyengue, performed by Daniel and Dolores, and I've watch a video of it at
least 50 since they left and think there performance was incredible. Dolores
De Amo is certainly one of the most sensuous women dancers I have ever seen,
and Daniel isn't bad either. It was Daniel's sixth visit to the Cleveland
area and certainly not his last.
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:50:38 -0600
From: "Bauer, Russell" <russell_bauer @NREL.GOV>
Subject: Re: women in classes
Greetings,
I just want to add one more thing to this subject.
If there are indeed a lot of classes that meet regularly with more men
attending than women, then this is a positive thing for the tango community
for at least two reasons.
1. I will guess that almost all, if not all, communities have more advance
women dancers than advance men dancers. Perhaps these men working hard to
get better will become advance in two or three years and will help balance
this ratio. (This too might be part of the reason. This may be a big
factor in motivating men to get better and to attend a class regularly -
certainly is a big factor for me).
2. Some teachers believe it is advantageous for men learning tango to lead
and follow other men (or women). I know some local teachers that believe
this as well as one international well known teacher. I'm convinced of this
too, but I will let teachers that advocate this explain its merits.
Note 1: I received two private messages from people doubting there are many
classes with more men than women. I do know that in the local classes that
I have attended in the last six month, almost all of them have had more men
and at times have had a lot more men. (I have witness the same thing in
Salsa classes too, but actually to a larger degree). Actually, that is all
that I stated. But, my gut feeling was (is) that I was not just by chance
attending the only classes in North America that usually had more men than
women. (I realize that the classes that I've attended are not a random
sample). That there were some messages from teachers stating that their
classes do have more men than women or that the number of men attending
regularly certainly outnumbered the women attending regularly did not
surprise me. Do I have any hard data other then that? No. But, I'm fairly
sure that this is not uncommon and I would welcome some kind of survey being
done if feasible. (Oh yea, also a workshop currently going on with a
visiting teacher has had more leaders than followers in each class I've been
in).
Note 2: I'm convinced that my hypothesis stated yesterday is false.
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:20:19 -0300
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= A. Contreras" <jcontrer @CMET.NET>
Subject: Tango at Bucharest?
Hello list !!
I've been trying to find information about tango at Bucharest, Romania,
but it has been impossible!
Someone has any information, or useful data or link? (Basically where to
go for a dance...)
I'll appreciate it very much... :-)
Jose Antonio Contreras
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:20:31 -0700
From: Kate Withey <withey @SFO.COM>
Subject: Re: women in classes.
Russell Bauer writes:
> I would like to add a hypothesis: Men like the close-embrace or milonguero
> (sp?) style of Argentine tango more than women do. Women like the stage
> style more.
In my experience, it's just the opposite. More men like figures, drama, showing off: an external style; while women like the close, intimate, internal communication of the milonguero style. I thought it kept coming up this way -- men want steps; women want connection.
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:26:48 +1000
From: Gavin Dixon <gavind @MED.USYD.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: favourite walking steps
Marie wrote:
>I have not seen anyone reply
>to Sue's query about your favourite walking steps. I would like to see some
>responses to that, as ours is also a very young Tango community with no role
>models to watch.
Migual Angel Zotto demonstrated a really nice walking movement at a
workshop in Sydeny, Australia a few months back.
He would simply walk forward to the fundamental beat of a slow
DiSarli song like El Amanecer. At a point where Carlos embellishes
the basic rhythm, Zotto would move forward with a slightly lengthened
stride, bring the trailing foot up to the other, change weight (and
lead a weight change in his partner) according to the tempo change,
then slot back into walking to the fundamental rhythm. Left/right
symmetry - por supuesto! This crude description does no justice to
the sheer beauty of the movement. I find the control of the timing
between the weight change and the subsequent forward movement
requires many hours of practice, but I am glad I have persisted.
He spent a lot of time beforehand demonstrating an enrosque
accompaniment to a left giro, but he could have spent the whole 2
hours just doing the walking embellishment to different parts of the
same DiSarli song and I would have been more than happy.
Of course, the thing that I find sad was that for most of the
participants, the lasting memory of that day will involve the
enrosque move, and not a wonderful way to play with the music.
Gavin
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 01:42:24 -0500
From: mlips <mlips @PANGEA.CA>
Subject: Re: favourite walking steps
Thank you Gavin, I would love to hear more of these kinds of contributions.
Gavin wrote:
"Migual Angel Zotto demonstrated a really nice walking movement at a
workshop in Sydeny, Australia a few months back," etc., etc.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 27 Jun 2000 to 28 Jun 2000 (#2000-176)
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