The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 21 Jun 2000
to 22 Jun 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 03:00:47 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 21 Jun 2000 to 22 Jun 2000 (#2000-170)
There are 12 messages totalling 390 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Let's clarify "mass immigration" and not freak out (5)
2. (wo)men in waiting
3. hopefully a summation of feelings
4. argentina-brasil soccer match tonite
5. Asking for dance
6. Misunderstood? was RE: [Trips to Bs.As.]
7. Your mailing list
8. Varios - 2
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:28:20 -0800
From: Steve Hoffman <DrSteveH @IBM.NET>
Subject: Let's clarify "mass immigration" and not freak out
Whoa, let's not get carried away with imagining insults when none are
intended. Sharon is already burned up to the point of (now) personal
e-mail rage toward me. And I see others may be preparing to get angry
about my comments that immigrants are not necessarily happy people and come
from disadvantaged backgrounds.
I wrote back to Sharon approximately these words:
"You should know very well that I am NOT talking here about professionals
coming to the USA in the late part of the twentieth century. I am talking
about the mass immigrations to Argentina from Europe - from the various
wars, the Irish Potato Famine, the Jews, the Nazis, and the vast numbers of
landless and disenfranchised Italian and other European immigrants and
refugees that came absolutely penniless, and mostly without skills or
education, from that continent. This information is not only well known,
it is totally given and accepted by uncounted experts in the field, and for
many decades."
In an long essay such as the one I wrote, one always risks the chance that
if every statement is not qualified and delimited correctly and rigorously,
someone will find, or feel, or create a wedge for attack and division. I
may have spoken too glibly about the immigrant situation, and perhaps, to
avoid confusion, I should briefly clarify.
I was speaking then, not about the modern, globalized, educated
professional person from a foreign country who currently works or resides
in the USA. I was speaking, in an anthrological and epidemiological sense,
of the mass migrations of the late 19th and early 29th centuries, the ones
that lead to the greatest increases in populations of countries like
Argentina, South Africa, and even the United States. Beyond a shadow of a
doubt, the economic, military, educational, religious, ethnic, and
sociological influences that I spoke of were the causes and defining
natures of these mass migrations. That these people were the poorest, the
least educated, the most disenfranchised, the most rejected, oppressed,
abused, lonely, landless people in their countries .. is incontrovertible.
The world's literature -scientific, sociological and creative - is filled
to the brim with evidence for this. It's a "given" - it is not even
debated, it is self-evident.
After all, does it make any sense whatsoever to imagine that affluent
people, educated people, or those with good skills, intact social and
family systems, opportunities, happy lives, etc etc would leave everything
they have (sic), lose every social and economic connection they ever had,
and come to a new world with only the threads on their backs?? And 90%
single men, as in the Argentine case??
Of course not. Whether it is the mass migrations of Mexicans and Central
Americans to the USA, or Europeans to Argentina, these peoples generally
had nothing in their own lands, and hope for a better or decent life in the
new country.
Educated, professional and sophisticated foreigners in the USA, who spend
time on their computer e-mail interest groups when they are not designing
computer systems or dancing tango... are not who I was refering to, and I
think to be fair, people should understand that and not look to make
trouble or take offense when none is intended, Sharon. As I said, I have
worked with for 15 years with many thousands of immigrants and refugees
(including from war and torture) who come to San Francisco from every
country on earth. I don't say what I say with arbitrariness, arrogance or
ignorance. If someone cares to come see where I work and what I do, and
the compassion that our programs and services demonstrate, and do it
alongside me for 15 more years, then let's do it and I will be glad to
learn from you about where the majority of immigrants are coming from
socially and economically, and what their situations and histories are.
Steve Hoffman
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:57:57 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Let's clarify "mass immigration" and not freak out
Steve Hoffman wrote:
> Educated, professional and sophisticated foreigners in the USA, who
> spend time on their computer e-mail interest groups when they are not
> designing computer systems or dancing tango...are not who I was refering to
None of education, professionalism, or, sophistication have anything to
do with being human -- which is the only thing that should matter.
The two world wars are probably a testimony to this.
rajan.
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:51:20 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: (wo)men in waiting
I am Always at Local Bar wrote:
>
> Dear Ladies in waiting:
>
> May I give you an advice on what to do while you wait:
>
> 1. Sit tight. Milongueros honor waiting that is characterized by expectancy
> and trust, by firmness and constancy of mind.
>
Sitting tight(in a metaphorical sense) perhaps holds for men
as well(I dont know). But with all the postings with tangible
scars left behind from what seems like men being made to wait,
a quote from Ninon de Linclos might help in some understanding:
<quote>
If a man gives a woman much money and expensive gifts,
it is just a sign of generosity. If he sacrifices his
time for her, that is sign of love.
</quote>
If for everything else there is visa, may be tango in
argentina is one of those things that money can not
buy(again, I dont know). Or, could it be that if one wants
to dance close embrace, at least a modicum of affection,
if not love, is a pre-condition?
The only lesson to be drawn from all the discussion
seems to be that it might be more prudent for
argentinian mothers to be escorting their sons to
the milongas instead of their daughters :^)
rajan.
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:01:00 -0400
From: Jack Karako <JKarako @AOL.COM>
Subject: Let's clarify "mass immigration" and not freak out
In a message dated Wed, 21 Jun 2000 5:58:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM> writes:
<< Steve Hoffman wrote:
> Educated, professional and sophisticated foreigners in the USA, who
> spend time on their computer e-mail interest groups when they are not
> designing computer systems or dancing tango...are not who I was refering to
None of education, professionalism, or, sophistication have anything to
do with being human -- which is the only thing that should matter.
The two world wars are probably a testimony to this.
rajan.
>>
What is then being human? If not education, professionalism (productive work), sophistication (growth) ?
Is it the raw feelings guided by the gut ?
World wars are the testimony to the prevailing Kantian philosophies which abandoned the rational mind and reason.
Respectfully
Jak
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:34:58 EDT
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: hopefully a summation of feelings
To Steve Hoffman,
I don't think the issue is any longer about if your facts are correct. And
there are probably many Argentines who would even agree with you. Yes you had
a bad experience in Buenos Aires. But that doesn't mean that someone else did
so it may be difficult to get others to sympathize with you. But to continue
on defending yourself with grand cultural and historical assertions just
because your trips to Buenos Aires were not very much fun starts to sound
like " I thinks everybody in the world is crazy except you and me but lately
I've been having my doubts about you."
It also excludes the possibility that perhaps something in your own behavior
or the quality of your dancing may have also contributed to that experience.
Not that it did, but overwhelming us with all your facts won't change any of
our minds if we enjoyed our own experience.
Cheers,
Charles Roques
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:10:09 -0400
From: Ira Goldstein <eyegee @LIGHTLINK.COM>
Subject: argentina-brasil soccer match tonite
Hi, everyone--
I've got an Argentine house guest who would love to watch some
Argentine team playing soccer vs. some Brazilian team.
If anyone has a clue about what TV station would be broadcasting this event,
such info would be much appreciated.
iMuchas gracias!
--Ira
Ithaca, NY
Great Dancing:
<<...the Highest Intelligence in the Freest Body.>>
(Isadora Duncan)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:02:15 +0300
From: Eva <e_varon_m @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Asking for dance
> Should they not ask her to dance but have her ask the men to dance or do
you feel she should not dance at all? I hope my question makes sense.
Well, here men generally kindly ask the woman but man at the same time while
inviting, this is kindness also to ask allowance from man, but also asking a
dance to the woman
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:45:24 -0400
From: Jorge Navarro <jorge @XMAIL.COM>
Subject: Misunderstood? was RE: [Trips to Bs.As.]
Is it possible that Sharon misunderstood Steve's message? Could it be that Steve simply was trying to say that his personal tango dancing experiences in Argentina "sucked", or his abilities to make friends in Argentina "sucked", or his attempts to ask local women to dance "sucked"? Hmmm...Why then Steve keeps going back there?
And what about Sharon's message? Could it be that she was simply trying to say that the "real" Argentine Tango is much, much more than a dance in a club as it might be elsewhere in the world? Another words, that the "real" Argentine Tango is a strange mix of incredible music, unbelievable dancers, good and bad characters, beautiful and elegant women of ALL ages, smoke in your eyes, pain in your feet and in your heart, the sound of porteno accent, the restaurants serving steak dinner at 3 o'clock in the morning, and so much more...?
Yes, of course, "Forever Tango" is argentine, but everyone knows that it was made for export. Surely, you can dance to Troilo in some barn in mid-America and feel happy, but how can that compare to dancing at "El Nino Bien" to a live and real tango orchestra?
Maybe when Sharon said that she hopes you'll understand, she meant that one day you will enjoy a real beautiful Tango experience in Buenos Aires.
Happy Tango experiences to all,
Jorge.
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:25:45 -0600
From: "Bauer, Russell" <russell_bauer @NREL.GOV>
Subject: Re: Let's clarify "mass immigration" and not freak out
Steve Hoffman wrote:
>"You should know very well that I am NOT talking here about professionals
>coming to the USA in the late part of the twentieth century. I am talking
>about the mass immigrations to Argentina from Europe - from the various
>wars, the Irish Potato Famine, the Jews, the Nazis, and the vast numbers of
>landless and disenfranchised Italian and other European immigrants and
>refugees that came absolutely penniless, and mostly without skills or
>education, from that continent..."
Hmm, interesting. Sounds like you're talking about some of my
great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents, except they were immigrants
to the USA instead of Argentina.
Russell Bauer
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:22:13 -0400
From: Janell Banit <Jbanit @AOL.COM>
Subject: Your mailing list
PLEASE remove me from your list. I'm getting humdreds of message with no change to respond. Thank you!
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:59:58 -0400
From: Silvia Borelli <silvia.borelli @OPERAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Let's clarify "mass immigration" and not freak out
>===== Original Message From Steve Hoffman <DrSteveH @IBM.NET> =====
>I was speaking then, not about the modern, globalized, educated
>professional person from a foreign country who currently works or resides
>in the USA. I was speaking, in an anthrological and epidemiological sense,
>of the mass migrations of the late 19th and early 29th centuries, the ones
>that lead to the greatest increases in populations of countries like
>Argentina, South Africa, and even the United States.
Nobody (?) is denying that those were the people who created the Tango music
and the Tango dance. Just as immigrants to the USA, such as Irving Berlin, who
created unforgettable music, even though he could not read or write a single
note.
But you also seem to be saying that the current generation of the Tango
dancers in Argentina are "low class" and "back-stabbers", and "cheaters", and
whatever else...Are you sure about it, Steve? Maybe some of the current stars
of Argentine Tango are without high school diplomas, but there are others who
have Masters Degrees from prestigious universities. But that's really besides
the point. A high education does not make a decent and an honest person - a
current U.S. president is a prime example. What matters most is what in that
person's heart, and your experiences in Argentina obviously did not allow you
to get close to any of the tangueros there. That's your own fault, dear Steve.
Don't blame it on poor immigrants of the 19th century.
Sincerely,
Silvia.
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:43:45 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Varios - 2
CORRECTION - Dave Schmitz points out that it was someone else, not
him, who cautioned that we should look about a bit before venturing
onto the dance floor at a milonga new to us.
______________________________________________________________________
Raul Martinez writes
> [Don=t] be afraid if one makes mistakes while dancing as there is no
> improvement without mistakes.
I want to second this strongly. I'll go even further & say if you're
making no mistakes you're not challenging yourself enough. Chances are
you're also boring your partner, because you're too predictable.
When you or your partner make a mistake just recover from the mistake
as gracefully and quietly as you can and continue dancing. As you get
better at handling mistakes you'll fear them less. Mistakes won't take
the fun away from an otherwise terrific dance. You will also sometimes
discover a step new to you when you recover from a mistake.
Handled right, mistakes are a GOOD thing.
______________________________________________________________________
I think there's something to the comments about Argentine culture made
by Steve & Keith. Considering their history, it would be surprising if
Argentines weren't at least a little paranoid & suspicious of all but
the ones closest to them. They'd be stupid (& maybe dead) if they
weren't.
On the other hand, divisiveness & self-centeredness are hardly absent
in other populations, either!
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 21 Jun 2000 to 22 Jun 2000 (#2000-170)
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