The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 14 Jun 2000
to 15 Jun 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 03:00:31 -0400
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 14 Jun 2000 to 15 Jun 2000 (#2000-163)
There are 13 messages totalling 679 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. single women vs. women with partners (2)
2. Women waiting and wanting to dance (5)
3. Women wanting to dance and waiting - The Argentinean view -
4. Tango Culture?
5. translation
6. Culture Shock Argentina
7. women in waiting... (2)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:36:08 PDT
From: Alexander Vistgof <vistgof @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: single women vs. women with partners
From my experience in Russia, women with whatever the partner - be it
friend, boyfriend, husband, work collegue, etc. have more dances vs. single
women. So, I think single women are more likely to quit than "partnered"
women and has to have more 'attention' in the milonga.
From a male point of view, I often feel when a guy does not like me to
invite her girl - so, I do not do it this time. It does not make a
difference whether the guy is a dancer himself or not.
Cheers,
Sasha
Moscow
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:04:53 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Women waiting and wanting to dance
Frank Sasson wrote:
>[I]magine having arrived at a strange milonga, with a male partner, and
>without knowing anybody, you send your male partner to dance with other
>ladies.
>How can you, in a very subtle way, indicate to the males at the milonga,
>(fewer than the women) that you are available to dance with, even though you
>entered the milonga with a partner or boyfriend?
I think in this case, the visiting woman must establish herself as both a
worthy and willing dance partner. If she is looking to dance with others, it
is not really too helpful if her male partner either dances with her for most
of the evening or completely abandons her to dance with others. She can
demonstrate her skill only if is she is seen dancing. She can demonstrate
her willingness to dance with others only if she does not spend all of her
time with her partner.
Meeting people is also important. In some cases, the host of the milonga may
be willing to make a few introductions. Getting the host to make
introductions usually requires the visitors to introduce themselves to the
host.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:40:09 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22LIGER_Michel=2C_CETE_M=E9diterr=2E/DIT=22?=
<michel.liger @EQUIPEMENT.GOUV.FR>
Subject: Re: Women waiting and wanting to dance
Hi
Here is a European view on this delicate topic.
As a man, I must say that I am shocked by the kind of so-called chivalrous
behaviour by which men would not invite a lady left alone by her escort who
dances with other women. BTW I notice that nobody ever mentioned that a
woman might or might not invite a man when his partner is not with him,
perhaps dancing :-)
Are we so macho and old-fashioned ? I think that if one night a couple
chooses to dance only together it must be respected, it is their choice. But
if the man invites other women to dance, the woman being not his property
has the same right to dance on her own. The time when Penelope was waiting
home for Ulysses is over, is'nt it ?
I have to say that in my tango community, a Mediterranean one, there is the
same difficulty as in the US but perhaps to a lesser extent. When people
know each other, men invite other men's wife or partner quite freely. But
not all of them do this. I have a regular partner, who is not my
girl-friend, and we like to dance a long time together when arriving at a
milonga or practice. When we want next to find other partners it is
difficult for her to be invited or not to wait too long despite she is a
good-looking good dancer !
When I see a woman, left by her partner for a long enough time, I have no
problem in inviting her and my rate of success is the same as with
non-escorted ladies. They are obviously relieved, happy to leave their chair
and not in a hurry to stop our dancing. And no men ever made me the least
reproach ! I would even guess that most were relieved to see their partner
enjoying their time. About men reactions we maybe should differentiate
between those being accompanied by their wife, girl-friend or just dance
partner. Or whether she is a pretty good dancer or unattractive and
unskilled :-)
Now here are my suggestions to women based on my practice as a man in my
country :
You must dance as soon as possible, by any means, to demonstrate that you do
dance with other men and may be asked to. For that:
Don't stay in long chats with other women (or men who are not likely to
invite you), because it is difficult to interfere, and also a possible "no"
is definitively prefered private than public.
Stay close to the floor, it is easier for a shy or lazzy man to invite you
just as a "passer-by" than after a long slaloming approach through tables
and chairs.
Don't make a detailed study of the floor or ceiling, look at the dancers
with a visible desire, look at people and be ready for an eye contact.
Do show by your physical attitude that you are available for an invitation.
Or do the invitation by yourself.
Other European views ?
Michel
Michel Liger
Aix en Provence, France
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:56:10 PDT
From: MeriBeth Clark <melepeka @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: single women vs. women with partners
Hi Sasha... I have one question for you. Say there is a young lady who comes
with a partner (of any kind) and the guy doesn't want her to dance with
anyone else because he might not be a dancer. But the young lady is a dancer
and wants to dance with him and others men. When she then wants to dance
with others... what do you think would happen then? Would the men ask her to
dance? Should they not ask her to dance but have her ask the men to dance or
do you feel she should not dance at all? I hope my question makes sense.
Happy Tangoing,
Meri
>From: Alexander Vistgof <vistgof @HOTMAIL.COM>
>Reply-To: Alexander Vistgof <vistgof @HOTMAIL.COM>
>To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: single women vs. women with partners
>Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:36:08 PDT
>
>From my experience in Russia, women with whatever the partner - be it
>friend, boyfriend, husband, work collegue, etc. have more dances vs. single
>women. So, I think single women are more likely to quit than "partnered"
>women and has to have more 'attention' in the milonga.
>From a male point of view, I often feel when a guy does not like me to
>invite her girl - so, I do not do it this time. It does not make a
>difference whether the guy is a dancer himself or not.
>
>Cheers,
>Sasha
>Moscow
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:01:50 PDT
From: MeriBeth Clark <melepeka @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Women waiting and wanting to dance
Hello Steve,
I also agree with what you say. If you are new at a Milonga and with a
partner of any kind. I think once a women or man is done dancing with a
partner to maybe not just immediately look for someone to dance with but
walk around and introduce yourself to people from around the community and
meet the hosts. This is another way of not only making new friends but a
great way to get dances. It then shows others that your open to dancing and
to myself making new friends and sharing ideas about Tango, or just sharing
in a great conversation. With this also usually will introduce you to many
others in the community. So you don't always have to go and ask someone to
dance right away. Meet people then dances will come all in time!
Happy Tangoing,
Meri
>From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
>Reply-To: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
>To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: Women waiting and wanting to dance
>Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:04:53 -0500
>
> Frank Sasson wrote:
>
> >[I]magine having arrived at a strange milonga, with a male partner, and
> >without knowing anybody, you send your male partner to dance with other
> >ladies.
>
> >How can you, in a very subtle way, indicate to the males at the milonga,
> >(fewer than the women) that you are available to dance with, even though
>you
> >entered the milonga with a partner or boyfriend?
>
>I think in this case, the visiting woman must establish herself as both a
>worthy and willing dance partner. If she is looking to dance with others,
>it
>is not really too helpful if her male partner either dances with her for
>most
>of the evening or completely abandons her to dance with others. She can
>demonstrate her skill only if is she is seen dancing. She can demonstrate
>her willingness to dance with others only if she does not spend all of her
>time with her partner.
>
>Meeting people is also important. In some cases, the host of the milonga
>may
>be willing to make a few introductions. Getting the host to make
>introductions usually requires the visitors to introduce themselves to the
>host.
>
>--Steve de Tejas
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>REMINDER: Announcements of Tango events or products should be sent to
>Tango-A and not to TANGO-L. To subscribe to Tango-A, send the
>command "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:07:42 -0400
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Women wanting to dance and waiting - The Argentinean view -
I have discussed this subject a few months ago. I will repeat some concepts
in case some readers missed it.
These are cultural elements that could be of interest to the visitor to the
milongas in Buenos Aires.
In Argentina if a woman comes with a man, or she sits with a man at a table
no gentleman will ask her to dance.
Even when she comes alone, but she is known to have a steady partner most
men will not ask her to dance.
For a lady to be invited to dance she should be sitting alone or with other
girls. She may be invited to dance even when she is sitting with a group of
people of both sexes if she is known not to have a partner.
Ladies that come alone and establish a conversation with a man will not be
invited to dance by other men.
This determines the characteristics of a milonga. Ladies sit by themselves
or with other girls. Men sit alone or with other men. Ladies coming from the
street greet her friends of both sexes with a kiss and a few words, then she
proceeds to sit alone or with other women.
This behavior that could seem to be peculiar to the visitor is entrenched in
the Argentinean culture.
It originates in the fact that Argentinean men consider a lack of respect to
interfere in any way in an on going relationship between a man and a woman.
It is considered unmanly and despicable to do such a thing.
This show of respect in this sense extends to other behaviors, such as not
looking or staring at a woman that is in the company of another man.
To behave in other way would mean lack of respect for the man escorting a
lady and could originate a verbal or physical fight.
I am sure that you do not understand this but...
...this behavior is so deeply sited in the Argentinean male personality that
in most cases, even after many years of having lived in the USA and Europe,
if in company of a lady in a romantic relationship another man comes and
asks her to dance, she agrees and goes dancing with him, the tendency for
the man would be to leave and never dance with her again.
Nobody tampers with the emotions of a macho man!.:):):)
The situation could be entirely different among couples that are friends. In
this situation it would be perfectly proper to exchange partners as everyone
pleases.
As to the other ladies outside Argentina wanting to dance and waiting,
(while in Rome do as Romans do) you stare at me and I will go and ask you to
dance.
I hope I will not have to fight with your partner. Is he a macho man?
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:26:52 +0100
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Women waiting and wanting to dance
Michel has some very interesting suggestions. It is interesting to see how
one can look at all these different "messages" that people project. Often
times, the comment is made in these threads about how rude and unwelcome it
is to interrupt people in conversations to ask one of them to dance. This is
obviously true, but it is also true that a "no" under these conditions is
also worse than in private. I wonder how many times a woman (or man) will be
wanting to dance and yet not allow the opportunity by engaging in
conversations?
The position of one's seat or table in relation to the floor is also crucial
to getting invited or inviting someone to dance. I never really thought
about it but I generally will only take the "long slalom" to ask someone I
already know, hardly ever a woman I do not know. for some reason, It is
oddly uncomfortable to do this. Of course, the *best* tables and chairs get
taken first, so it is important to arrive soon enough to get the choicest
seats ;)
Of course, if one appears aloof or unapproachable, people (men) will be more
reluctant to approach and ask for dances. I agree that one must look like
one wants to dance and is interested in the dancing. Very good suggestions
Michel.
Many tangos to all,
Manuel
Original Message -----
From: LIGER Michel, CETE Miditerr./DIT <michel.liger @EQUIPEMENT.GOUV.FR>
> Now here are my suggestions to women based on my practice as a man in my
> country :
> You must dance as soon as possible, by any means, to demonstrate that you
do
> dance with other men and may be asked to. For that:
> Don't stay in long chats with other women (or men who are not likely to
> invite you), because it is difficult to interfere, and also a possible
"no"
> is definitively prefered private than public.
> Stay close to the floor, it is easier for a shy or lazzy man to invite you
> just as a "passer-by" than after a long slaloming approach through tables
> and chairs.
> Don't make a detailed study of the floor or ceiling, look at the dancers
> with a visible desire, look at people and be ready for an eye contact.
> Do show by your physical attitude that you are available for an
invitation.
> Or do the invitation by yourself.
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:06:09 -0400
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Women waiting and wanting to dance
Lots of good comments on this topic so far. I'd like to expand it to
women waiting regardless of whether or not they came with a partner.
To some extent no matter what a woman is like or what she does she
can't win. Some men will never ask her to dance.
Are you utterly, stunningly gorgeous? "Oh, she can do better than me;
she'll say No." Are you an absolutely terrific dancer? "Oh, I'd
disappoint her; she'll say No." Young as the Spring time? "Oh, she's
just looking for some young stud; ...."
There are some things you should avoid to increase the number of men
who ask you to dance. (Most of them apply to men, too.)
Odor. I'm surprised at the number of women who will come to a dance
straight from a spicy dinner. Or will have a smoke & come back inside
with no attempt to fluff their hair & brush at their dresses. And many
European women have no concept of the importance North American men
put on bathing & deoderant.
Chatting. If you want to be sure to be passed up, sit facing someone
while you talk to them. The considerate men, who you most want to
dance with, will ask someone who's looking out at the dance
floor. This doesn't mean you can't look at your friend, but not
constantly.
Barricades & shadows. Sitting with a table in front of you, against a
wall, or out of the light suggests you're not eager to dance.
Lots of dances with one person. More than about three dances in a row
with one man (outside of Argentina) is a signal that you belong together. Or at least that you like his dancing so much that other
men would be sure to disappoint.
And the biggest of all: remaining a stranger. It doesn't take much to
break the ice with men. A nod & a smile as you come in is all takes,
or a goodbye when you leave. Ask a question of some kind, make some
innocuous comment. Or do almost anything that includes non-hostile eye
contact. Don't worry if he seems oblivious; a lot of us are slow or
shy despite the brave front we put on. Don't get angry or hurt. After
you've totally forgotten an apparent snub we may finally get up the
courage to ask you. Or we may have discharged our obligations to close
friends & be ready to ask a stranger to dance. And after one dance you
are no longer a stranger.
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:10:19 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Tango Culture?
In writing about archetypal qualities of cultures, psychologist Carol
Pearson* says "Lover" cultures are very egalitarian, passionate and
intense cultures that place high value on artistic expression,
personal relationships and living well. There is high drama,
intensity, and concern for the quality of life. At best, people in
the culture feel good, have deep relationships, and life is lovely.
At worst, peace is shattered by jealousy, bickering or gossip, and
undermined by submerged, unacknowledged conflict.
Does this sound at all familiar?
--Steve de Tejas
*In her book, Awakening the Heroes Within: Twelve Archetypes to Help
Us Find Ourselves and Transform the World
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:13:42 -0500
From: "kata @pitton.com" <kata @PITTON.COM>
Subject: Re: translation
I sent this Saturday, but due to a technical glitch, it didn't make it to
the list. Ok, technical, schmechnical, I forgot the .edu on MIT.
>Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:17:56 -0500
>To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT
>From: "kata @pitton.com" <kata @pitton.com>
>Subject: Re: translation
>
>
>All these translation sites remind me how secure my job is. :-)
>
>The proof is (or isn't) in the pudding...
>
>The first part of your email:
>>Dear List Members,
>>I just stumbled upon a website which I thought might be useful for some
>>of us tango lovers but non tango speakers. It is a translation site
>>which can convert from english to spanish and back...(it also does
>>french, german and a few other languages). It will even translate
>>entire web pages if you type in the url. I am sure that the grammar
>>sticklers out there won't be too pleased but the rest of us might find
>>it useful for getting a vague idea.
>
>English to Spanish translation:
>List querida Members,
>acabo de tropezar sobre un website que pense' puede ser que sea u'til para
>algunos de nosotros los amantes del tango pero no los altavoces del
>tango. Es un sitio de la traduccio'n que puede convertir de ingle's al
>espan~ol y (it de la parte posteriora... tambie'n hace france's, alema'n y
>algunos otros lenguajes). Incluso traducira' las paginaciones enteras del
>Web si usted pulsa adentro el URL. Soy seguro que los sticklers de la
>grama'tica hacia fuera alli' no sera'n demasiado contentos sino el resto
>de nosotros hallazgo de la fuerza e'l u'til para conseguir una idea vaga.
>[since this list isn't accent-friendly, I "fixed" them]
>
>Spanish to English back-translation:
>Dear List Members,
>I finish encountering on website that I thought can be that he is useful
>for some of us the lovers of the tango but not them loudspeakers of the
>tango. It is a site of the translation that can turn of English the
>Spanish and (it of the posteriora part... also makes French, German and
>some other languages). It will even translate the whole paginations of
>the Web if you press inside the URL. I am safe that sticklers of the
>grammar towards outside the rest of us will not be too many contentments
>there but finding of the force useful he to obtain a vague idea.
>
>Not all of the into-Spanish problems are reflected in the
>back-translation. To give just one example of many, in "and a few other
>languages", "languages" is translated as "lenguajes" and back-translated
>(correctly) into "languages". However, while "lenguaje" can be a
>translation of "language", but with a different meaning, like the style of
>language used in a document or article, in this context, "languages", such
>as Spanish, English, German, etc., are usually refered to as "lenguas" or
>"idiomas".
>
>
>>I probably wouldn't trust it to
>>reveal subtle interpretations of "Milonga Triste" but it might do for
>>liner notes or online cd reviews.
>
>At best it would give you an idea. Mostly, it would leave you saying "huh?".
>Almost all regionalisms will throw it off completely. Between the words
>that mean one thing in one country and another thing in another country
>and the words that are unique to only one region, it's impossible to get a
>good translation with the technology available now, let alone a good free
>translation.
>
>
>>To be honest I've tested it with
>>mixed results.
>
>Mine were consistently bad. You're lucky you got "mixed" results.
>
>Let's take a couple of phrases I often hear about my sister who's an
>actress & dancer:
>"Ta fuerte la mina. Es un minon."
>Spanish to English:
>"Strong Ta the mine. He is minon."
>My sister is a "he"?? And what's all this about mine? Mine or yours?
>Mining? Who knows...
>
>I guess if you want to translate "the car is red" or something like that,
>you would be ok. But anything more complicated than Dick & Jane won't be
>pretty.
>
>
>>(Needless to say, I'm not dropping my spanish lessons
>>anytime soon.)
>
>Smart move.
>Before learning any regional variation ("dialect" isn't very PC these
>days), it's good to have a strong base in "standard" Spanish. That way,
>when you learn the regional variation, you'll be able to detect what we
>call native-speaker errors (leismo, dequeismo, etc) and you won't
>unknowingly make the same mistakes they do. (Native speakers of any
>language don't make the same mistakes, in general, that non-native
>speakers do.)
>
>
>>you can find it at http://translator.go.com/
>
>TBA, IMHO.
>
>
>saludos
>Kate
>
>
>PS
>Tango translation may soon be a thing of the past. In January I was asked
>to translate a large and comprehensive project about tango into English.
>Since the pay was less than 1/4 of my regular price, I turned it down.
>However, some xlators were found to do it -- the project leader is a good
>friend of mine, and I'm sure they're doing a good job. It should be ready
>soon. I can't say what it is until it comes out... but I think you'll love it!!
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:48:10 -0500
From: "kata @pitton.com" <kata @PITTON.COM>
Subject: Culture Shock Argentina
Sergio gave a great description of milonga culture.
For a panoramic view of general culture in Argentina, there's a new book by
a 20-something Brit living there:
_Culture Shock! Argentina: A Guide to Customs and Etiquette_
Fiona Adams
ISBN 1-55868-529-4
Adams covers a little bit of everything: the history, the country, the
people, social and business customs, food & drink, "football [soccer] and
other religions", language, survival, etc. There are several lists of
resources. And a humorous cultural quiz at the end (including a question
about milongas). While I don't agree with everything she says, most of it
is good information. Not a perfect book, but one that's better than most
when it comes to this type of guide.
For some books in Spanish on Argentineans, try:
_El pais de las maravillas_
Mempo Giardinelli
and
_Los argentinos por la boca mueren_
Carlos Ulanovsky
These three books can be ordered from various on-line book sellers.
Happy reading,
Kate
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:02:58 -0400
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: women in waiting...
Dear milonga compatriots,
It was so much fun to read everyone's opinion on the topic of women
waiting to be invited... with a male escort, or more than just an
escort.... or before that...should women be self-advocates for their
dancing needs...or should they not be because in BsAs men would not dare
invite a woman with a male escort to dance...
How about asking a woman who is alone, waiting at the table, or standing
by the wall TO DANCE? She came to a dance, there must be a reason why
she is willing to spend her time and money on attending a tango dance!
Guys!!!!! No woman will think less of you if you are that brave. More
than that: No man will think less of you if he is enjoying his dancing
with another woman and his partner is entertained. We are living in the
21st century! Women do not belong to men. They do as they please. The
worst thing that may happen, she'll say "no".
Recently I went to a milonga in New York City alone. Although I usually
dance in my home town ( I am lucky to have a partner who is a wonderful
dancer), noone invited me to dance for a long time. I enjoyed myself
anyway: listened to live music, watched dancing, observed people and
their interactions. Surely, there were some male dancers who only
invited popular women. We all know why. Yet, there were men who made
a point of inviting women that were not dancing much. These men just
went from one woman to the next and danced with her 3,4 dances. Women
were ALL quite happy after dancing with them.
Thanks to you, brave souls! ...your dancing pleasure was ours...
Eugenia
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 01:26:23 EDT
From: Mirella Massetti <MMirella @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: women in waiting...
In a message dated 6/14/2000 8:47:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
euginas @EROLS.COM writes:
<< It was so much fun to read everyone's opinion on the topic of women
waiting to be invited...>>
Eugenia,
I couldn't agree more! We are either splitting hairs of complicating a very
simple issue. We are incouraged since day one to "change partners", so we do.
We learn to appreciate different styles of dancing, different leading,
different music interpretations and yes, new challenges, because through
those we learn and we become better dancers.
When we travel we visit the local tango communities. Can anyone explain why?
May be, just may be, because we want TO DANCE, meet the local tangueros/as,
and since we share the same interest, dance with them.
If after a few dances the man starts inviting other women, it means that the
woman is confortable with her escort dancing with other partners, and the man
is confortable with giving the woman the chance to experience the same.
Men never "sit and wait", women do. And forgive them when, in a new
environment, they are somewhat unconfortable to get up and ask gentlemen they
never met to dance.
And thank you for all the valuable advices: Sit up front, smile, make eye
contact, establish yourself - do men ever need to establish themselves? -
look here not there, show this, do that, shave, use a good deodorant, don't
eat garlic, freshen up if you smoke, don't sweat, brush your teeth, introduce
yourself, entertain conversations, be a good dancer, don't be such a good
dancer...
Sometimes nothing seems to work.
Make no mistake: we go to dance, just for that: To dance. As Eugenia said, we
can be entertained also by other elements: observation of dancers, the music,
getting to know a different tango scene, but our main purpose is to dance.
Mirella
End of TANGO-L Digest - 14 Jun 2000 to 15 Jun 2000 (#2000-163)
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