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Digest from 1 Jun 2000 to 2 Jun 2000





Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango          <TANGO-L  @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango          <TANGO-L  @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject:  TANGO-L Digest - 1 Jun 2000 to 2 Jun 2000 (#2000-150)

There are 9 messages totalling 619 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Why Tango? 2. 8CBw/DBS (4) 3. The 8CB Dissected 4. TANGO-L Digest - 30 May 2000 to 31 May 2000 (#2000-148) 5. The Dreaded 8-Count Basic 6. Why tango?


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Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 02:36:41 -0500 From: Larry Stevens <tanguero @POBOX.COM> Subject: Re: Why Tango? Tango, for me, is a way to bring all the parts of my being together with all the parts of another -- physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. It's like being in love for three minutes at a time. It's said that tango is "the vertical expression of a horizontal desire." But it's about more than just sex -- and it CERTAINLY is about sex; it brings together those very different elements in a way that make you feel bigger than yourself, and bigger still when that feeling is matched by your partner. I began about 4 1/2 years ago with a little dance showcase I was talked into. At the time, all I knew about was ballroom style, American Tango and International Tango. I was shown a video of a workshop and the instructors demonstrated both International style and Argentine Tango. What a difference! International Tango looks like two praying mantises...... er... ahmm..... well... copulating. <grin> Not pretty. On the other hand, Argentine Tango is the most intimate dance in the world. A man. A woman. Each leaning into the other, the job of each, to keep the other from falling. They are breast to chest, left cheek to right, so close they breathe the same air. She waits.... and waits.... and waits.... while the music starts its first phrases, hinting at the sadness and the passion to come. He steps to the side; she follows a millisecond behind him so not to disturb the slight pressure between them. He walks forward; she crosses left foot tightly over her right, and they pause, savoring the closeness of their bodies. They walk, and she responds to the slightest suggestion of his body. He speaks. She listens. But they say not a word. Their bodies converse in a delicate interplay of touch and rhythm and subtle glances. When he waits, she taps her foot impatiently. "Well... I'm waiting," she seems to say. The music slowly begins to surge and he quickens the tempo, builds his intensity, increases his stride; she follows him closely as he accelerates, yields to his forcefulness, reaches back to give way to his lo-o-ong... steps. He turns her suddenly and stops, freezing her in position, looking her in the eye so close he could steal a kiss. Their lips wet with desire, they pause a moment, then continue their "caminata de amor," their walk of love. As the music builds and softens, then builds to its climax, the couple dance around the floor, wound tightly around each other, teasing each other with their eyes, a long, slow embrace bringing them so close the only thing that separates their white-hot, tortured skin are two bits of fabric. Their heat so intense, they melt into each other and freeze as the song ends, and at long last they can relish the touch of each other in an ultimate embrace. That's why I dance tango. Larry Stevens Dallas --


Tango Is Life. Everything Else Is Just A Dance.


Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:20:23 -0600 From: Chas Gale <Chuck.Gale @IHSENERGY.COM> Subject: 8CBw/DBS Once again I've been forced into a discussion that should not need discussing. How disgusting. I'm sure Steve means well, but... ---Steve Lee wrote--- """I don't understand this Thing that people have with the D8CB.""" The root issue in this thread is the very same one as in the LOD thread. It is not the 8 count basic but the BACK STEP that we dread. How appropriate that "back step" should be abbreviated as BS!!! For a leader to step backward, in ANY direction, onto someone is pure BS. There is no excuse for it. ---Steve Lee also wrote--- """I started tango with the D8CB. It only took a few weeks before it became a memory...My opinion is that the D8CB is a school figure...Once in a while you use them but not often unless that person has no imagination or a very small vocabulary.""" I'm happy for you. And the hope is that leaders will grow beyond the 8CBw/DBS in a few weeks as you did. But the reality is that most take months and months to get over it and some NEVER do. We have a 6'4", 250lb behemoth in our community who is incapable of NOT stepping back after a resolution. I fear that one day this fellows inconsideration (to put it nicely) will end (or delay greatly) the tango life of a 5'2", 100lb tanguera. An instructor that teaches the 8CB WITH the DBS to a brand new beginner has created a monster. A menace to the milonga. A dance floor Frankenstein for the rest of us to suffer behind for as long as it take him to learn better. This person can cause a great deal of pain and suffering in even just a few weeks. ---Steve Lee went on to write--- """I would like to think that a dancer versed in floorcraft, aware and dancing with the rest of the room would not have any problems with people doing the D8CB because someone doing the D8CB would not be hard to spot if you are looking ahead.""" The fact that I should not have to alter my tango to accommodate the incompetence of others notwithstanding, the fact is that on a crowded dance floor it's often impossible to allow these imbeciles sufficient berth. ---Steve Lee wrote in conclusion--- """Talking about it gives it importance. If you see someone doing the D8CB, just be a little flexible, forgiving, smile, get over it and move on. I think this would produce a more cohesive tango community and less Dance Floor Rage with dance-by shootings.""" Steve, our primary responsibility as leaders is to take care of the women who have put there trust in us. When a tiny dancer extends her leg backward in an elegant response to my lead she is extremely vulnerable. When an unthinking dolt brings his usually superior weight to bear on her outstretched Achilles tendon it does not flex. It tears. She may forgive, but I won't. She cannot smile. She will get over it but it could take a very long time and she will move on, on crutches. It IS important, and talking about it is the least we should do. When my follower jerks her body into a pain induced curl. When her face distorts into a horrific grimace. When her tender ruby lips twist into a demonic scene reminiscent of a Steven King movie a little voice in the back of my head squeaks, "You were supposed to protect me from this". Perhaps this image can help you understand why I can't think of anything more appropriate than a dance-by shooting for the simpleminded buffoon who decided, with complete disregard (if not outright contempt) for the safety and well being of those around him, that his rights to the space behind him is greater than the rights of my follower to leave the milonga without a limp. Sorry, I didn't mean to sugar coat it. Chas Gale, Denver, Colorado, USA, Don't tread on our women.


Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:12:43 -0400 From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM> Subject: The 8CB Dissected I invented the Rule of Two in 1982 when I moved to California to work for NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab. I started dance classes again to meet people & I needed some way to learn a lot quickly. It was natural for a software engineer to apply system analysis. Years later I learned that I was hardly the first to create it. In the swing world "Skippy" Blair is famous for it. When I joined Boeing's ergonomics group I found something similar in time-motion studies. And when I revisited Yale University a few years ago, where I studied Mandarin Chinese in my 19th year, I found in the rare books stacks that French dance masters knew about it in the 1800s! It's not surprising. It's a simple principle with powerful consequences: EVERY DANCE FIGURE HAS AN ODD OR EVEN NUMBER OF STEPS. This means that complex dance figures can be broken up into simpler figures. Each simple figure has an odd or an even number of steps. And every odd-numbered pattern can be replaced any other odd-numbered pattern (within certain limits). The same is true for even-numbered patterns. So what does this mean when we apply it to the "basic" figure now being discussed in TANGO-L? ________________________________________________ Well, the first step of the U-shaped salida is traditionally deleted the first time we do it in a dance, so that single step is obviously a basic step pattern. The L-shaped part of the salida has two steps, so maybe it's a basic step pattern also. The two steps with a cruzada looks basic as well. Finally, the resolucion has three steps. I'd classify it as a basic pattern. Oh, we COULD break the resolucion up further, but you can carry analysis too far. Once dissected, we can see that this basic isn't just some arbitrary combination that someone threw dice to create. The single back step is dangerous, but only if WE DON'T WATCH WHERE THE HELL WE'RE GOING. Properly used, it makes the basic more compact, because we're going against the line of dance. The L-shaped two-step walk gets us into the traffic flow & starts us along the line of dance. The two steps with a cross is known in social dance circles by the French word chasse, because when you repeat it several times you can see that one foot CHASES the other. This chasse actually has two functions. One, it gives a feeling like the comma in a sentence, of brief completion while one pauses for breath. Two, if the leader has used the L-shaped walk to step outside the woman, the cross at the end of the chasse brings her back in front of him, into the inside position. The resolucion is like the period in a sentence. Often I do it when I hear the music coming to the end of a phrase. It signals the end of a figure. Maybe a little end of just a few measures. Maybe a bigger end, like the end of major section of music, where I sometimes add a pause before beginning another figure. ________________________________________________ If you'd like to see visuals of what I've just described, look at the following URL. http://home.att.net/~larrydla/tango_basics.html Larry de Los Angeles


Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:12:02 -0700 From: Mark Celaya <mark-joan-tango @JUNO.COM> Subject: Re: TANGO-L Digest - 30 May 2000 to 31 May 2000 (#2000-148) Hello list, Well, I have to admit, I have been learning some new things these past few days regarding Tango & American (USA) attitudes. I was totally unaware of the expressions: "dreaded 8-count basic", "dreaded back step", ''dreaded lean", & now I find that ''original sin'' is ingrained in all of us from the tango instruction by Argentine teachers. Can the Inquisition be far behind? I`ll be ready for them this time! Seriously though, I feel that there are no "dreaded" steps/patterns/technique in Tango or any other social dance, only "dreaded" dancers. All social dances including Tango, in general consist of three basic steps: forward, side, & back. Most social dances have a line of dance or a flow of dance. The good instructors teach the individual student, especially the leader, how to perform each step to the music, around the dance floor maintaining the basic flow/line, relating to his/her partner (lead/follow), without interfering with the other dancers. One tall order. The back step is one of the steps included in this scenario. It is never taught as the "back into the couple behind you" step, nor as the ''back up the line of dance" step. It is simply the back step in relation to the position of one`s body. A back step can be performed without one`s body ever moving backwards against line of dance. Sometimes it is a necessary step if there is a couple directly in front of & on both sides of the position of the leader`s body frame. The control of body positions at all times on the dance floor is a "key". The exercises mentioned by both Tom Stermitz & Stephen Brown are excellent methods to develop this control. The method of "open, cross, parallel'' body positions/movements employed by Gustavo is very, very good, but it is nothing new. Ballroom dancers have been using this method for years; they call it "Counter Body Motion" aka CBM. Orlando Paiva has so much body control that a very popular exhibition that he performs is to have 3 people surround him & his partner, with there hands clasped together giving them only a few square feet of space in which to manuever. Orlando will then proceed to lead his partner into any pattern/step that he wishes or that is requested by the onlookers (boleos included), without touching any of the 3 "surrounders". On the night of his 8-count basic demonstration that I`ve previously mentioned, 205 people showed up that night. It was pretty much a mess on the dance floor, much too over-crowded. I watched in amazement as he danced in perfect line of dance never bumping into or being interfered with, dancing his simple walking steps that he likes including the 8-count basic, with a seemingly 6th sense to always be positioned in an open area. Orlando along with Nito Garcia are my 2 favorite dancers, not necessarily my favorite teachers, but who both teach excellent classes on line of dance, dancing the ''salida basica'' with the back step. The "salida basica" has become to be known as the "dreaded 8-count basic" among apparently many American(USA) dancers/instructors. I have yet to hear any Argentine national refer to it as such. "Bridge to the Tango" (Daniel Trenner) distributes a fine as well as interesting set of instructional videos known as the "MASTER" series. One of his latest is with Raul Bravo, another apparent "old timer". The very first thing that he demonstrates is what he refers to as simply the "basica". He explains that "this is what they began to dance in the 1940`s'' at the milongas of Buenos Aires. He then proceeds to dance the salida with a 5-count resolution making it a 9-count basic (eliminating the back step). He uses the back step as a link in order to repeat the pattern. Sr. Paiva also verified that the "salida basica" was being danced in the 1940`s when his mother would drag him to the milongas & he would watch the dancers; & also that it was still very popular when he would walk to the milongas as a young man with his buddy, Juan Carlos Copes, in the early 1950`s. Orlando Paiva began teaching Tango almost 45 years ago. He has never taken a dance lesson in his life. He began teaching exactly what he saw on the dance floors of Buenos Aires. Whether the "salida basica" is the best way to teach Tango, I cannot say. Tom Stermitz mentions some instructors (mostly non-Argentine) who do not use the "salida basica". This is all fine & good; they may have an excellent, even the best system for teaching beginners. I have watched/listened to many non-Argentine instructors explaining/demonstrating their method for teaching beginners. Guess what, there are many, many ways to teach Tango to beginners. One thing I do know, they cannot teach anyone to improvise. They can only give them tools/materials/ideas to use. Improvisation is purely a personal thing. In the "salida basica", every single iota of every single movement of every single step can be used to improvise on the dance floor. Every single iota can be led/followed. At any moment, from beginning to end of the "salida basica", a leader can improvise & dance another step/pattern/movement. If a leader & or follower has problems with improvisation or is completely locked into this pattern, it is, as Stephen Brown points out, the fault of the student and/or teacher; not the pattern. To state that a follower gets absolutely nothing from learning the "salida basica" is absolute nonsense. If one chooses to never dance/teach the "salida basica", that is his/her privelege; all fine & well. But to take the teaching methods of innumeral Argentine instructors, especially well-respected dancers of the calibre of Juan Carlos Copes, Orlando Paiva, Nito Garcia, whose combined total amount of experience, teaching/dancing Tango is more than 120 years; to take the well-organized superb systems of the younger generation of Argentine Instructors, Daniela Arcuri & Armando Orzusa, or that of the innovative Fabian Salas; to take the efforts of the personable showmen, Carlos Gavito or Carlos Copello (with Alicia Monti) who dance beautiful styles both on the stage & at the milonga; for any American (USA) to label what they teach as "dreaded", totally boggles my mind. To inform Juan Carlos Copes, on his birthday, that what he gives to the Tango world is "original sin", well, I don`t know what this world is coming to. One final thought. This whole scenario reminds me of a young businessman, who, many years ago, learned Tango from a very popular dance couple (British/American) named Vernon & Irene Castle. The Tango that they taught him was apparently developed by someone dissatisfied with the Argentine methods. This young businessman eventually opened a chain of dance schools that included Tango as part of its curriculum. His name was Arthur Murray. Best regards to all, Mark Celaya http://home.att.net/~mark-joan-tango P.S. ~ To answer Gero Iwan`s question: "...how do the Argentine instructors handle the first step of the 8-count basic without a back step? My favorite method is that of Carlos Copello: "On one, you button your coat." ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.


Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:34:27 -0700 From: Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy.zelaya @ENG.SUN.COM> Subject: Re: 8CBw/DBS Hola Naifas y Garabos, The chronicles of Princess Di ran their course. Elian tales are drying up. But TANGO-Listers still have their answer to the "little girl that fell down a well" story: The 8CBwDBS saga. This thread seems to live on forever. Like a Hollywood vampire, it rises again and again to feed on the blood of the long suffering listers no matter how many times it dies/gets a stake driven thru its heart. Following the 8CBwDBS thread makes me feel a bit like I need a 12-step program, although, I must admit I'm finding it more and more easy to hit the delete key lately. I think that nothing else quite defines the debates that go on the list as much as the 8CBwDBS story. This potboiler rivets active listers, tango-literati, and lurkers alike because it has what every debatable topic needs: A clear definition of what it is so that just about everyone has an opinion about it; staunch defenders that insist on its pedagogic value; vociferous detractors who claim that its teaching encourages poor social dancing habits; sticky intellectual, historical and cultural issues that offer pro and con points; nefarious traveling tango teachers that don't seem to care as to what happens to the communities once their gigs are over and their minions are unleashed on the local dance floors; local tango teachers that either never knew that there was a problem or decided to ignore it or whatever; and, of course, lots and lots of newbies that ask, nay, demand to know what the fuzz is all about. The 8CBwDBS discussion has been sliced and diced in so many ways that what is truly dreadful about it is that there is still room for some more slicing. To wit, a new slice has been introduced this time around (insert clap of rolling thunder here): "EVERY DANCE FIGURE HAS AN ODD OR EVEN NUMBER OF STEPS". After reading that last statement I just wanted to scream: DUH!! As bipedal beings we dance on two legs (the ocasional jigging one-legged pirate not withstanding ;-), thus, *everything* we do with our legs consists of an even or odd sequence of steps is it not? But I digress. The bottom line folks is this. Don't do the 8CBwDBS if you don't want to and for whatever reason you choose. But if you do, watch where you are going to land that foot. That last statement, by the way, applies to every step you make within the dance floor and without. Regards, ---- ruddy "I once complained to my father that I didn't seem to be able to do things the same way other people did. Dad's advice? 'Margo, don't be a sheep. People hate sheep. They eat sheep.'" -- Margo Kaufmann


Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:49:00 -0500 From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG> Subject: Re: 8CBw/DBS I would have thought that someone like Larry Carroll would argue that categorizing every figure by an odd or even number of steps is an example of binomial thinking. I would like to engage in a little multinomial thinking. One possibility is to categorize every figure according to division by three. A figure where division of the number of steps by three yields an integer solution might be called a "perfect figure." A figure that is one step short of being divisible by three would be called a "minus-one figure." A figure that is one step over being divisible by three would be called a "plus one figure." A figure constisting of 3, 6, 9, or 12 steps would be a perfect figure. A figure consisting of 2, 5, 8, or 11 steps such as the 8CB would be a minus-one figure. A figure consisting of 1, 4, 7, or 10 steps would be a plus-one figure. My proposed decomposition of minus-one figure yields one minus-one figure and a number of perfect figures. For instance, the 8CB would be broken into three parts--two perfect figures and one minus-one figure. I would be inclined to identify the first two steps as the minus-one figure. For analytical purposes, the first step could be backward against the line of dance or a simple weight shift. The second step would be a side step. The next section would be a perfect three steps to the cross, which would be followed by another perfect three steps to resolution. As Larry demonstrated the odd/even system can be used to break a figure up into component parts, but the proposed implementation of the odd/even system contained elements that consisted of more than two steps. The U-shaped salida and tango resolution both consisted of three steps each. These three step elements ought to be reduced to more fundamental elements consisting of one-step plus two-steps. The possibility of using higher-order multinomial systems for step categorization and analysis remains to be explored. ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) Steve de Tejas


Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:57:41 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22LIGER_Michel=2C_CETE_M=E9diterr=2E/DIT=22?= <michel.liger @EQUIPEMENT.GOUV.FR> Subject: Re: The Dreaded 8-Count Basic Hi list I am pretty much interested in this discussion, not as a teacher as previous contributors but as a dancer. My posting is to give a basic dancer testimony on the result of traditional tango instruction. First of all, would someone be so kind as to explain the meaning of your US acronyms? I understood that the 3 following 8CB/D8CB/Salida Basica are equivalent and I could because I was taught the "Salida" with 8 steps. But what are DBS and 8CB w/DBS ? In France, at least with the teachers I learned with, we start the first class with the Salida, your D8CB, then ochos, turns, molinetes, etc. Generally speaking teachers, whether they are Argentinians on tour or French, teach figures to be memorised. Dancing tango then is an improvisation consisting in putting together a series of figures according to the music, mood, space, etc. After some time people can notice that many figures are just variations on the same basis or starting steps. Being more and more experienced they can start cutting patterns, mixing them up, or even trying new steps or variations. As a consequence of this method I am conscious that when I am dancing, my default move still is the 8CB and I find it difficult to completely get rid of it (as a default) even though I know and practice a lot of more simple and sophisticated steps. In addition I feel I am not completely free to try any step at any moment of a pattern. Perhaps also my improvisation skills are not that high ! My point finally is from my own experience and my external vision of the other dancers practice that the teaching of figures in general and of the 8CB in particular, at the beginning of the tango instruction is a bad thing as it favors a passive rather than active attitude towards improvisation. Another consequence is that followers only need to be lead into the beginning of a pattern, they know the rest of it and resist to any change introduced by the leader ! So the training in leading and following is contradicted by its little need in this way of dancing. Dreaming of an ideal teaching of tango, I would like to have from the very beginning: - improvisation exercises, just walking in any direction, following the music - lead/follow exercises in improvisation - learning of very short sequences of say 2-3 steps - attemps of making on the right or backward what has been learned on the left or forward - putting together the above 2-3 steps sequences to build up a figure (e.g. the salida). I like very much Tim Pogros practice: >While I teach the 8CB >today, I make them learn this step in 3 separate sections. the beginning >(steps 1 &2), the Middle, (steps 3, 4 & 5) and the resolution, (steps 6, 7 & >8). I make them learn to take this step apart and put it together again in >any different sequential order. Teaching the 8CB in three sections also gives >the student time to learn to pause at the end of each section. When I teach >all 8 steps at once, the student never pauses, but continues from one step to >the next. It seems to me that learning simple steps and improvisation and then combining them into figures, rather than breaking up figures into reusable elements, is a better way to give beginners the necessary freedom. Being free to improvise at any step even within a complicated pattern seems important to me because it allows to adapt one's dancing to the music and the available space. In addition only a step by step improvisation obliges beginners to properly develop lead/follow skills. Michel Michel Liger Aix en Provence, France


Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:05:38 +1000 From: Gavin Dixon <gavind @MED.USYD.EDU.AU> Subject: Re: 8CBw/DBS Dear listees, Stephen P Brown is to be congratulated for his well-argued multinomial system of movement analysis. Maybe we could look take an historical review of tango to help resolve the issue of categorisation: Francisco Canaro composed the song "Nine Points" - worth a thought. Piana penned "Milonga del Novecientos" - was he proposing that a song should consist of a finite number of steps such that a given movement could then be expressed as a fraction of that number;-? we should consult a traspie specialist as to the viability of "1/900 figures" during Milonga del Novecientos :-? Any other theories :-? Gavin


Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:33:44 +0200 From: Primoz Potocnik <primoz.potocnik @GUEST.ARNES.SI> Subject: Re: Why tango? Thanks Bob, for wonderfully describing an amazing tango phenomenon, a peak performance, a magic experience of melting with your partner, even reaching the altered state of consciousness. My experience of some precious Flow dances could be described with almost the same words as Bob used. Such a magic experience is already the definite answer to "Why tango", enriching the quality of life by broadening the limitations of ordinary awareness. I would like to share some impressions and to invite you to visit LiberTangoFlow <http://www2.arnes.si/~ppotoc/tango> - a work in progress, dedicated to danced meditation of tango argentino and the optimal experience of Flow. Tango NowHere


Tango is a path leading nowhere. A very effective one! It is a walk of attention, generating a novel quality at the resonant peak of the sensitive synchronization with a partner. Arriving nowhere is stopping the world, the current step not remembering the step before or thinking of what is to come next. It is simply riding a powerful flow emanating from the unification of energy and attention of a dancing couple, and maintaining the fragile equilibrium by putting in our best. What is important is a level of energy and attention involved, and a degree of synchronization, transforming the invested energy into a razor-sharp laser beam cutting the borders of the perception. Arriving nowhere is standing on a hill-top offering a buena vista not being seen before. It is a possibility, a gateway to the other reality, beginning at the tiny gap between now & here. After being touched by a powerful experience of Tango NowHere, the vision is changed. Tango becomes a sophisticated tool of self-transformation, playing on the borders of ordinary perception. Extending into the unknown on rare moments, and bringing a new quality into a human life. This can be mutually experienced in a loving connection with a dancing partner, sharing the steps, the heart and the magic of the divine dance. Best regards, Primoz Potocnik


LiberTangoFlow: http://www2.arnes.si/~ppotoc/tango





End of TANGO-L Digest - 1 Jun 2000 to 2 Jun 2000 (#2000-150) ************************************************************