The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 27 Jul 2000
to 28 Jul 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:00:17 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 27 Jul 2000 to 28 Jul 2000 (#2000-206)
There are 8 messages totalling 465 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. TANGO NOTES (2)
2. dreaded partners
3. milonga in Washington DC
4. More about dreaded partners
5. censorship/dresses
6. The Use of Patterns in Social Dancing (2)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 07:46:52 EDT
From: Dario Mendiguren <C21DARI @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: TANGO NOTES
Dear Izabella and Tango ;
I'm sorry I was not there in that Saturday Milonga to help them, you are
right about those inconsiderate Tango wrestlers !
But dancing very often on our Saturday Milongas I know how to recognizeand
and avoid (specially this is sometimes a very hard task) those 2 or 3 rude
Tango "wrestlers" (dancing on the floor, without knowing them, is similar
to cross a Buenos Aires or Rome's busy street eye blinded!!)
The worst part is that they believe they are doing great ! What they don't
know is, that if they dance in BA salones in similar way, they will
probably recieve a worning from the hosts or they will be asked to leave the
dance floor. depending how dangeros they are to others.
It's a shame that your friends came across to one of them!. If they come
back to NY please tell them to contact me, and I'll make sure to introduce
them to our hosts Danel and Maria and also we'll make sure they will have a
good Tango evening.
Sorry for that, un abrazo Tanguero Dario
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:32:12 -0400
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: dreaded partners
Mary Jane,
There is no better way to describe i'll-show-you-what-i-can-do-dancing! Too many
people forget that social dancing is NOT show boat! I am seconding your claim to
what is enjoyable and what is dreadful.
Eugenia
Mary Jane Finley wrote:
> Rico wrote: I hope some of you ladies will answer my jokes in like kind, and
> please be humourous it is an easy way to help people think about what they
> are doing.
> I think anyone who is studying tango is wonderful and should be praised for
> their effort. Rico
>
> Rico, you asked for it -- what kind of male partners do we females dread?
>
> The hand cruncher is definitely one, the guy who uses a deadly grip to force
> us around the floor, ouch! The arm pumper is another, swinging and swaying
> and sending both of us off balance. Then there is the skyscraper, they guy
> who holds your arm so high you lose all circulation by the end of the dance.
> How about the trickster, the guy who has to try out every new goncho and giro
> and leg-tangling step, the one who seems to have forgotten that we are
> dancing, not performing. Then there is the groper, running his hand up and
> down your back while he presses his chest to yours or sticks his thigh
> between your legs. We dread the dipsters, the guys who want to swoop about
> in all sorts of ghastly poses and throw us over backwards on the final note.
> The marksters are harmless but boring, stepping every step exactly to the
> beat, never varying, never interpreting the music -- just! stick! to! that!
> beat! The bobbers are harmless too but take all the elegance out of the
> dance as they bob-bob-bob along. Meanwhile the I-can-go-faster-than-you-can
> guys rush away all of the emotion. Every once in a while a stomper appears;
> where did he get the idea that a loud whack on the floor makes the dance
> better? But the partner I dread the most is the looker, the guy who is
> watching everyone else in the room, the one who is checking out that new
> woman in the red dress, the one who is watching his old girlfriend, the one
> who has forgotten that I am the woman in his arms for this dance . . .
>
> The partner I enjoy the most is the one who really hears the music, the one
> who focuses only on me and makes every move count, the one who dances with
> elegance and emotion, even if he knows only a few basic steps. Oh how lovely
> it is to dance with such a man and how I appreciate him for sharing the dance
> with me.
>
> Mary Jane
> Seattle and Phoenix
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> REMINDER: Announcements of Tango events or products should be sent to
> Tango-A and not to TANGO-L. To subscribe to Tango-A, send the
> command "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:39:54 -0400
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: milonga in Washington DC
Come to experience great tango music selection, from Argentina and from
many other countries. No workshops, no shows, just great dancing while
you will support our communities Art Program at DC JCC in Washington.
Refreshments will be served, as usual. Cost $10. All proceeds go to DC
JCC's music, art and literature program. Questions? Visit
Washington-Baltimore's Tango website at http://wbTango.com
See you there!
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:27:37 EDT
From: Mary Jane Finley <MJWRITER @AOL.COM>
Subject: More about dreaded partners
I heard from many of you about "dreaded partners" and received suggestions
for a three more:
How about the stinker, the one who wears way too much cologne, or even worse,
has poor hygiene. Then there is the talker, chatting away while you are
trying to get lost in the dance. And finally, there is the instructor,
stopping every few steps to explain what he wants you to do, pointing and
pushing your feet about, obviously oblivious to the meaning of the word
"Lead."
The truth is that most of us are trying to be good partners. We take
workshops and private lessons; we attend practicas and buy instructional
videos; we even save our money and hope to dance at milongas in Buenos Aires
someday. Most of us are deeply immersed in the Tango and spend much of our
time trying to learn and grow and become the partner who makes the dance
special. So thank you all you Leads for doing your best not to be a dreaded
partner and for understanding that we Follows are doing our best too. We all
love the Tango and appreciate the opportunity to share the experience with
another so let's just keep dancing!
And that's it for me, ladies and gentlemen -- my last word on dreaded
partners.
Mary Jane
Seattle and Phoenix
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:52:32 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: TANGO NOTES
Izabella Chaves hath spoken thus:
>
but as far as tango venues go, it is the various hosts who, I think, should/could make certain
that bad behaviour will not be tolerated.
<
and Dario Mendiguren rejoindered
>
But dancing very often on our Saturday Milongas I know how to recognize and avoid (specially this
is sometimes a very hard task) those 2 or 3 rude Tango "wrestlers" ...
<
It should be clear by now, to regular readers of the List, how strongly I feel about bad behaviour
on the floor. (Come on, it is NOT 2 or 3, you KNOW that!) But what I really fear is that the
"establishment" decide to start following Ms. Chaves's advice, before the correct principles,
which are being ignored in many places even in Buenos Aires, I am told, are properly
"popularized". If we should be so unlucky, life at the milongas will then really be something to
die for!
Ignorance of principles that are really, to a large extent, not even all that specific to tango is
of a peculiar kind. Obviously, if it were a matter of faulty transmission of knowledge, the
problem would self-correct over time. There is a lot of activity in the New York area! But it
won't. Wrong headed ideas have established themselves quite widely and deeply, and I can think of
several people (well, I am being coy here) who are among the very worst perpetrators, yet might
easily find themselves in the position of judge, jury and hangman, all in one.
All in all, I prefer the Wild Wild West to a Banana Republic. Another simile, and please remember
that I am over-over-over-dramatizing. What if the government of England wanted to try a new method
to deal with English soccer hooliganism, by nominating certified section leaders in charge of
setting an example, then recruited them at random among the frequent soccer attendees? Things
could get even more interesting!
Once in a while (very, very, rarely, phew!) I have to face the problem of dancing (one last dance)
with a lady who signifies that she is not happy with MY navigation, because I do not do like
everybody else, and/or do not follow stupidities promoted into principles. Here two examples that
I saw posted somewhere, quite recently (I forgot where). Paraphrasing: "A Milonguero will always
dance forward; and he will never overtake (pass) other couples." This is vintage nonsense, widely
believed, and in a sense it epitomises a good part of the misconceptions that make for the kind of
"navigation" that we do observe.
Shall we convert to these "principles" then go tell Tete' that he too must keep to his "spot" in
The "Line of Dance", and stop moving along with the ronda, making giros and changes of direction,
dancing forward AND backward, because people in New York have a better idea?
Now he must wait patiently behind some character twirling the woman around like a madman for
minutes while drawing a five pointed star around HIS "spot" in The Line Of Dance, taking up the
full width of a four lane dance track. We must tell him, that he now should avoid facing the
"wrong way", and instead make his woman TAKE IT LIKE A WOMAN, when the tasmanian devil drifts
towards them in his circumvolutions. (Oops, Tete', looks like you were ... tailgating! Wow!)
So now Tete' should nearly always face "forward", and just be careful not to take TOO MANY steps
AGAINST the ronda, look first, etc, and please say excuse me (if he feels like it) every time he
hurts a lady. And after converting Tete' to drifting up AND then taking an extra back step for
good measure, to link neatly to the next "figure", which is the second most popular navigation
ploy, maybe we can also convert him to New York's favorite way of moving: at right angles with The
Line of Dance! (It is always OK to do that, see, because you are just moving around within your
"spot" in The Line of Dance. It is even a good thing, see, because, if somebody traveling
carelessly along the outside boundary, you know, way out of The Line of Dance, should enter your
TERRITORY, you need to let them know that they must cease and desist. So, Bang-Boom, go at them.
Nothing worse than letting people get away with stuff like that. If you do, soon we will have
people just WALKING along kind of in lanes, GOODNESS we must stop that before it is too late!)
Now imagine if, instead of very-very-rarely dancing one last dance with someone who wants to teach
me how to navigate WRONG, I am kicked out of a milonga for "being caught standing too close" to
Spin Cycle Joey, instead of joining him in terrorizing the meek walkers piled up in their pathetic
little corner struggling to get out?
Is there a solution? Yes, several. I will name the two most conservative ones I can think of.
One - Keep the Wild Wild West and wait patiently for better days. I still can have a riotous good
time in the more civilized milongas, which are many (mere examples: Esmeralda s, D.Sport,
D.Manhattan, Central Park; in these cases the perpetrators are usually more diluted, in both the
crowd and the floor space).
Two - Commission Augustina Videla & Claudio Asprea to teach floor craft (and how to teach it to
others) to tango dancers, organizers and professionals in a series of crash courses, with the last
two categories browbeaten into obligatory attendance. I do not really know for sure if A&C would
be as good as I think, I do not know them well. But once in a pre-milonga class at the Lafayette
Grill (a nice but small dance space) they taught an interesting and fairly elaborate sequence of
perhaps around 15 measures (30 Slow pulses), where each step (whether forward, side or back for
either partner) turned the couple in place or moved them DOWN the line of dance. So I am ready to
bet on them.
Of course, a sequence like that can be made more interesting, more two-dimensional, SPACE
PERMITTING, by adding pauses and changes of direction, varying the turning angles, etc. There was
no space; but, needless to say, some couples got to it right away. The usual confusion ensued.
Cheers to all.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:10:36 -0700
From: ramiro garcia <ramiro9 @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: censorship/dresses
--- Larry Carroll at larrydla @JUNO.COM wrote:
> But here I have lots of ... opinions.
>
> Like - please, don't wear long dresses with fringes, or short
dresses
> with long fringes, especially. The damn things can catch a
woman's
> heels or ankles... I also don't like long dresses, period.
They
> get in the way of ganchos, which I lead fairly
often...[by]...request.
I once attempted to help a tanguera to pick tango blouses. I had
her press her bare forearm against the fabric, and asked her how
it felt. Then I suggested she imagine doing that when both
parties are hot, maybe a little sweaty.
Another consideration, (pointed out to me last night), was slip.
Fabric that slides around on the woman's back, will interfere
with a proper embrace/lead.
Cotton, silk, and microfiber synthetics are winners for me.
I think Larry's safety concerns were on target. We cherish our
dance partners too much to see them put at risk over a fancy
dress. And long
dresses can also make things somewhat more difficult.
--- rtara <rtara @MAINE.RR.COM> wrote:
>I just want to remind the women who prefer to dance tango as a
social
>dance that it is possible to avoid the gancho when it is led
by doing
>a small, low kick over your own ankle rather than a large,
potentially
>dangerous gancho of the man. Much more elegant. Same goes for
boleos.
A friend of mine told me that she never ganchos on a first date,
or first tanda.
ramiro garcia
=====
ramiro garcia
ramiro9 @yahoo.com
---
Men are qualified for civil liberties, in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their appetites: in proportion
as their love of justice is above their rapacity.
- Edmund Burke
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 22:10:43 -0400
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: The Use of Patterns in Social Dancing
Women don't need patterns when dancing. In fact, they should not know
patterns (figures, "steps", whatever you want to call them). If they
know them, they'll anticipate (often wrongly) & fail to follow the
lead. Just as bad, the kind of thinking behind doing figures
interferes with the kind of intense in-the-moment experience I call
Zen dancing.
The same goes for men. Ideally a man should only think one step ahead
- consider the options open to him & his partner, pick one, take a
step; consider options, pick one, take a step; consider/choose/step;
consider/choose/step. All so automatically & easily that he improvises
very complex figures but has plenty of attention left over to enjoy
the music, his partner, moving in the flow of dancers, & enjoying the
beauty of the figures that seem to magically create themselves.
Thinking about figures, planning figures, making sure they're done
right - when done WHILE DANCING these thought processes destroy a
man's ability to experience Zen dancing.
But when done while TAKING A CLASS & WHILE PRACTICING those very same
thought processes are essential. Only one in thousands of men can get
to the Zen state right away. The rest of us must go through the
halfway house of figures to get there. Ultimately figures are training
wheels for the mind - but are no less important despite being
something we (if we're lucky) will someday discard.
______________________________________________________________________
Several years ago I created an analytic system (as have other people)
that breaks almost all tango figures down into a few basic
building-block figures. The most complex basic figure has three
individual steps, & most have just two. See the following URL for a
quick summary of some of them. See my online book for a more complete
guide at the second URL below.
http://home.att.net/~larrydla/tango_basics.html
http://home.att.net/~larrydla/basics_0.html
I also came up with a few ways to vary those figures & combine them -
easy ways that we already know just from our daily experience. I don't
know specifically what Nito showed Steve, but here are some that we
all can use.
(1) Take shorter steps! I'm still amazed at the number of (supposedly)
terrific dancers who seem to think every step has to be a giant one.
(2) Pivot to the left or right before we take an individual step, or after it, or before AND after it.
To take one example: I often start facing back along the line of
dance. As I dance (for instance, the 8-count "basic") I'll pivot a bit
to the left before each step of the figure until I've made a complete
360-degree turn, ending facing back along the LOD but further along
it. This "topological commutation" opens up the (e.g., 8CB) from a
rectangle into a line - which could curve to avoid obstacles, or
fit into a smaller space.
(3) Take out a pair of steps (which leaves a figure "topologically
diminished" but essentially unchanged). Thus the 8CB (with the middle
two steps removed) becomes the 6CB, a figure very similar to the box
step used in other social dances.
(4) Reverse the direction of a building block. The 3-step Tango Close
for the man would change from FORWARD SIDE TOGETHER to BACK SIDE
TOGETHER. (This should be done after a half-turn, of course, so that
the man is walking backward but still moving along the LOD.)
(5) Change a side step to ball-change (stepping in place). The Tango Close for the man would change to FORWARD TOGETHER TOGETHER.
(6) Change a side step to forward step. The Tango Close
would change to FORWARD FORWARD TOGETHER.
______________________________________________________________________
So with a few building-block figures & a few ways to vary & combine
them, we can create many thousands of complex figures much more
easily. And be much further along the road to Zen tango dancing.
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 23:08:32 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Use of Patterns in Social Dancing
In a message dated 7/27/00 9:13:38 PM Central Daylight Time,
larrydla @JUNO.COM writes:
Larry Carrol wrote
Women don't need patterns when dancing. In fact, they should not know
patterns (figures, "steps", whatever you want to call them). If they
know them, they'll anticipate (often wrongly) & fail to follow the
lead. Just as bad, the kind of thinking behind doing figures
interferes with the kind of intense in-the-moment experience I call
Zen dancing.
The same goes for men. Ideally a man should only think one step ahead
- consider the options open to him & his partner, pick one, take a
step; consider options, pick one, take a step; consider/choose/step;
consider/choose/step. All so automatically & easily that he improvises
very complex figures but has plenty of attention left over to enjoy
the music, his partner, moving in the flow of dancers, & enjoying the
beauty of the figures that seem to magically create themselves.
Thinking about figures, planning figures, making sure they're done
right - when done WHILE DANCING these thought processes destroy a
man's ability to experience Zen dancing.
But when done while TAKING A CLASS & WHILE PRACTICING those very same
thought processes are essential. Only one in thousands of men can get
to the Zen state right away. The rest of us must go through the
halfway house of figures to get there. Ultimately figures are training
wheels for the mind - but are no less important despite being
something we (if we're lucky) will someday discard.
___________________________________________________________ >>
I like and totally agree with Larry, and would like to tell the list an
exercise I gave my class just last night. I would like you to member most
peoples first experience in close dancing.
I want everyone to go back in time. Back to you high school days. Your about
17 years old, and your back to what you might call a sock hop. The music is
very slow and romantic, and the girl (or boy) of your dreams is in your arms.
The two of you are joined together very close. Can you remember what it was
like?
I'll bet that 99% of you kids never had a dance lesson in your life, but when
the music played the man steps, or rocks forward and back, the girl stays
right with him. If the boys rocks or steps from side to side, the girl stays
and goes with him again. And maybe, just maybe the boy does a fancy under arm
turn, the girls goes willingly. Surrendering to his lead and commands.
Can you see what I'm getting at?
Although we never had a dance lesson in our lives, although there were no
dance steps that we had to perform. The man led, and the girl followed. The
boy gave the girl all the time she needed, never beating her, and the girl
never anticipated the leaders next move. The couple went where the music led
them on the dance floor, in a close embrace.
Now that were adults again, and we have had many lessons how to dance
correctly. Why are most of us having trouble leading and following, and just
walking around the dance floor? What changed?
If you have to think, your not doing the tango.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 27 Jul 2000 to 28 Jul 2000 (#2000-206)
**************************************************************