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Digest from 16 Jul 2000
to 17 Jul 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 03:00:05 -0400
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 16 Jul 2000 to 17 Jul 2000 (#2000-195)
There are 5 messages totalling 429 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Tangasms in BsAs
2. Thanks Nora, and Bob
3. Social Dancing Versus Posing (Larry Duke)
4. Analysis, passion and the exclusivity of tango (2)
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Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 07:25:19 GMT
From: ASTRID SATO <astridsato @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tangasms in BsAs
>No real competition there. If those Nihonjin men have been around Japanese
>women for most of their lives, you will seem like an exotic Germanic
>goddess to them. Enjoy your power.
Dear Tigre,
as I already said, I love your charming way of expressing yourself. But you
are Latin, I suppose, not Japanese. You don't read the Japan Times where an
English teacher wrote last Sunday, that her boss told her after her first
lesson: "You have the great advantage, that you are small. You didn't scare
the students." And mind you, I don't look like Brunhilde at all, I'm fairly
normal for western standards. Amy Chavez, who wrote this, however, is 1,55
m, which is normal over here. And another, maybe even more frightening thing
in Japan is apparently a woman with personality...
>>However, I found, the better I learn how to dance, the lighter I seem to
>>be
>>to lead.
>
>An excellent point, Astrid. A woman, whether 85 lbs or 800 lbs, must be
>able to maintain her balance and be nimble on her feet while dancing
>tango. This, coupled with being alert and responsive to the lead, is the
>basic necessity for good tango. Anything beyond that, such as adornos for
>example, becomes artistic creativity to enhance the physical conversation.
An Argentinian friend of mine who lives here, told me, he likes those
waiflike women because they are easy to catch when they lose their balance.
Those may be beginner's standards, but maybe he has a point there. Another
friend recently spent a week nursing a backache after he did a calecita that
went wrong.
>Some women (and men, my wife reminds) seem to give no physical feedback
>during a tango. When I dance with a woman, regardless of her age, I want
>to feel her presence in my abrazo. For me, tango is not merely an exercise
>in movement. It is a physical encounter with a woman set to music. It is
>an adventure that allows men and women to exalt in their sensual prowess in
>a mature way that does not offend. Why dance tango, if not for the sheer
>physical pleasure of the experience?
Well said. I think so too. However (excuse) there are an awful lot of people
around, who, rather than exalting in sensual prowess, are very preoccupied
with technique, executing steps correctly, checking their looks in the
mirror or , at worst, trying to compete with the very woman they are dancing
with.
I think it takes close to a year of practising, before you can enter
blissful oblivion and the steps will just happen naturally, gliding along
with the flow of the music without a thought entering your mind.
That's when you can exalt... And it also takes a certain kind of spirit, we
even have a teacher from BsAs here who seems more interested in watching
himself in the mirror, making his dance partner feel very lonely sometimes.
And remember the guy who wrote, people looking for romance should be sent to
the nearest salsa bar, and don't belong in the tango world ? I'm still
wondering what he meant ? Is he trying to say tango is only for disciplined
acrobats, who do their romancing at home ?
]
>Delicate women have less body mass than their average to larger sisters, so
>physical feedback is noticeably less in my experience - hence the dancing
>with smoke reference. This doesn't make them bad dancers. This observation
>also only applies to non-professional dancers.
What exactly is physical feedback ?
I have experienced men in different ways. One holds me so safely and warmly
that I simply stop to think and just hear the music and feel him. Another
always keeps some distance and gives me lots of space for adornos and
receives my clues for extra moves, the dancer who treats his woman as an
equal, another who makes me "lie" on him chest to ankle and carries and
shifts me over the dance floor. I like all of them.
Actually, I feel a bit like a chamaeleon, when I dance with different men...
So- these are things I have felt, how do you experience physical feedback ?
Would you differentiate, please ?
And what are those sexy adornos that Esther Pugliese does ? I used think
(maybe I was wrong ) that adornos are mainly for my own entertainment or for
the pleasure in the eye of the spectator. Of course there is something
flirtatous about them, but other than brushing up the leg at the parada,
what adornos feel actually sexy to the partner ? I thought many of them he
can't even see unless he watches our feet, he just has to wait for the woman
until she is ready for the next step, no ? Somehow I feel I must be on the
completely wrong track here. Please explain.
Abrazos
Astrid
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Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 15:51:35 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Thanks Nora, and Bob
Thanks to Nora and Bob, at Nora's Tango week, I now have several hundred new
tango friends. The tango in San Francisco at Nora's Tango week was incredible
this past week. I only wish some of the people from Cleveland could have seen
the level of dancing performed there. More than 25% of the people attending
Nora's Tango Week came all the way from Japan, let alone from all over the
US. I especially enjoyed meeting and dancing with Sara Alverez from Oklahoma,
and Anna Magid from San Francisco. And for a couple of the days that I was
there, I shared a room with Ed Loomis, from Sacramento. Ed was there helping
Nora in any way he could, and always with the biggest smile. It was finally
nice to put a face with many names I knew but didn't know who the person was.
My dancing has changed enormously due to the fine list of Maestros
instructing.(Carlos Gavito y Marcela Duran,(my favorite) Nito y
Elba,(moonyecka, I love you both) El Indio y Marianne, Guillermo y
Fernanda,(she is so pretty, isn't she) Fabian Salas, and of course, Nora.) I
can still smell Marcella's perfume. I especially would like to thank all the
instructors for letting everyone video tape the last night floor show. You
had to be there
What I found really outstanding was how well everyone danced. By the middle
of the week we all seemed to be on the same level. Well, we were all going in
the correct direction. There were three rooms, one for each level of dance.
The size of the classes fit the rooms perfectly, and how Nora got a correct
number of leaders and followers is beyond me. Dancing to the New York tango
Trio every night was delightful, plus the DJ (sorry I forgot you name) was
also extremely good. Even the bartender was top shelf, and really knew his
drinks.
I was truly sorry I had to leave and come back to reality again. But there
will be next year. See you again, soon.
If you would like to come to Cleveland, please contact me. On September 1, 2,
and 3
Marcos Questas, and Mara Carlson will be putting on a tango workshop Labor
Day weekend at Belinda's Bar
Marcos Questas is the star of "Tangoing" and will be putting on the
Viva Las Vegas Tango escape in October, with such stars as Cristy Cote',
Carlos Gavito & Marcela Duran, Chicho & Lucia, Corina & Julio, and Pochi Luna
& Adriana Vasile
I hope to see everyone there
Timmy
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 14:09:28 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Social Dancing Versus Posing (Larry Duke)
Also spracht Larry Carrols:
>
Ah, Carlos Lima, you misunderstand. "Larry Duke" is
actually a controlled but inspired dancer .. etc.
<
By the time I finished what I wanted to say and went
back to your messages I was actually inclined to
believe that he was agreeing with you (I am not part
of the folklore, you see, so you guys are just urls
and e-mail addresses to me). But, other than parking
my arse by a parenthetical escape hatch at the
beginning, I let my posting stand as it was for two
reasons. First, by choosing to use a nuns-with-rulers
metaphor to deal with what I consider a form of
(sometimes purposeful) aggression, he had earned the
right to be misunderstood. I was actually more worried
about you feeling slighted, which I did not intend at
all. And, second, I would have to spend a lot of time
trying to salvage my literary efforts, now deprived of
a key dramatis persona. Again, sorry Duke.
I take this opportunity to clarify a point. I
certainly think that it is very virtuous of you both
to do your more expansive stuff when the floor is
relatively uncrowded. I am SURE I would find nothing
to be a babushka about if your dancing ever crossed
(knock on wood) my line of dance . (A local tanguera
has promised to show me where The Line of Dance is, so
I will be looking for you there as soon as I know
where.) But what I have dealt with in a few postings
is really the aesthetics of tango dancing, in the
porten~o old grand master sense, and the ethics of
human co-existence in general, as they (should) apply
to the social dance floor. These do not really change
with the time of day.
Cheers.
__________________________________________________
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Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 19:27:34 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Analysis, passion and the exclusivity of tango
Manuel wrote:
>I've been reading with interest and participating in various threads about
>"technique and analyses vs. passion" and "exclusivity vs. welcoming people
>into tango". I also see the efforts of people such as Tom S. in Denver are
>about to take form and actualize. Looks like Denver is about to have the
>first nationwide tango exchange with it's exclusively "apilado style"
>milongas. I wish them great success!
Dear Manuel,
I would like to specifically invite you to come for our Milonguero
Weekend. We have enough locals willing to put up visitors that I'm
sure we can find you a place to stay.
Yes, the focus of the weekend is on the Milonguero Style (and the
milongas will be pretty crowded).
Several teachers who specialize in milonguero-style teaching (Rob
Hauk from Portland, Chris Nassoupoulos from San Francisco, Barbara
Durr from Atlanta and Stephen & Jane Payne from Salt Lake) are
bringing in some of their students. You can imagine that having the
visitors will amplify the local preference.
I have to report that dancing in a close embrace is a PREFERENCE in
Colorado not an EXCLUSIVE. I think this preference has to do with how
many people have visited Argentina and the fact that we never had a
long residency from Forever Tango. In other words most newcomers have
the opportunity to watch a fairly "authentic" version of tango, i.e.
a tango that is "fairly similar" to what they actually do in
Argentina.
In the US most teachers and most tango weeks emphasize the "open
salon", Fantasy or the Nuevo Tango. That is why I wanted to have a
weekend specifically dedicated to the Milonguero style. I sincerely
hope it attracts those people who discovered (as I did) that
wonderful, fanatic pleasure in holding your partner close and being
swept away into the rhythmic trance of the milonguero tango.
By the way, Milonguero-style to me, means the way the old milongueros
in BsAs dance. While each is unique, you can identify a stylistic
commonality. Ask the women in your community what they would call it.
Actually, I find it truly bizarre that the close-embrace (whether you
call it milonguero, apilado or all-piled-up), is so rarely taught in
the US. It is as if there is a conspiracy to prevent N. Americans
from learning HOW THEY ACTUALLY DANCE in Buenos Aires. I have heard
several good, master teachers say it is only for "picking up chicks".
Are they trying to tone down tango and make it "safe" for N.
Americans.
Please correct me if I'm way off on the numbers, but one of the most
remarkable things about tango is that Fantasy Tango is so rare in the
clubs of BsAs and Close embrace tango is so rare in the US.
I don't know exactly what the percentages are (and they vary from
club to club), but let's say for the sake of argument that it is 47%
close and 47% "open salon", leaving maybe 3% fantasy and 3% Nuevo
Tango. What those fantasy dancers are doing, I'm not quite sure, but
they don't get many dances except from the Americans.
I haven't travelled enough in the US, but aside from a few cities the
ratios are probably more like, 5% close, 5% Nuevo Tango, 40% fantasy
and 40% open Salon. Amost all the teachers (visiting and local) teach
fantasy or Salon.
Upon visiting Argentina for the first time, I was a bit shocked to
notice that what I had been taught simply didn't correspond to
anything they were doing in Buenos Aires.
Actually, I felt a bit ripped off. Here I had been spending all this
time and money for 1 1/2 years and I couldn't get a dance to save my
life!
What is a shame is that so many newcomers to tango don't have the
opportunity to avoid the same problem I had.
A very fair question of them to their teacher would be: "Does your
style of dancing succeed for you in Buenos Aires?".
>I guess I'm a little unclear about the "balance between analysis and
>emotional expression" in Tom's community. I thought that the "apilado"
>method was the norm in Tom's community. For me, it is a very user friendly
>style and it requires very little in the way of analysis and a very narrow
>range of technique. I don't think an "apilado" dancer need to analyze much
>;) Certainly, emotional expression should not be difficult while enjoying a
>sweet and intimate embrace? Anyway, I want to know what parts of the close
>embrace are open to analyses.
Obviously, on this list, any tango subject (including a poetic
subject like romance) is fair game for discussion, whether or not the
topic lends itself to analysis. Neither actual knowledge of the topic
nor tango skill is a pre-requisite for contributing!
>Also, I find it a interesting for Tom of all people to stage an "exclusively
>close embrace" tango weekend. This seem to go against the " Tango
>communities need to be inclusive rather than exclusive. If we really love
>tango, we should want to share it with as many others as possible".
I find it odd to go to certain communities in the US where hardly
anybody does close embrace. It is as if nobody there has bothered to
visit Argentina. Not that Buenos Aires is exclusively milonguero, but
why would so many teachers have carefully avoided
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:03:59 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Analysis, passion and the exclusivity of tango
Dear Tom,
Thank you very much for your kind invitation. I'm afraid I must decline
because of my busy schedule. It sounds like you are going to have a grand
time with all your favorite friends doing what you like best :-)
I did not think that all of Colorado danced or preferred the apilado style.
But I did think that your upcoming weekend was exclusively for apilados.
I don't know about the tango weeks and workshops that you've attended but
the ones that I've seen are dedicated to teaching tango. Nothing less,
nothing more (well, maybe some milonga and vals too). The teachers teach
tango technique and it is up to the students to apply the teachings to their
dance in the most appropriate way. True, very few teachers emphasize
"franeleo" as the most important aspect of dancing tango. Most of them try
to teach balance, lead and follow and floorcraft in the best way they can.
Almost 100% of teachers will tell you that the default position of tango is
the close embrace. It is just that most classical salon dancers will use the
close embrace plus the left arm of the man and right arm of the woman to
convey the lead and follow. I will not deny that rubbing breasts can be
pleasurable, but if that is all you want to do, you are denying the
posibility of a more rich and varied dance.
There is no *conspiracy* to deny the American people the chance to rub
breasts. It is just that the vast majority of good (well known) dancers do
not dance tango in that style. The embrace is close and there is body
contact along the *close* side of the couple but also a slightly open and
firm frame on the *open* side. I'm sure that you saw many people in the
milongas that you went to in Bs As dance "apilado", but you probably thought
that all were dancing apilado when they were not.
You are correct in your statement "Milonguero-style to me, means the way the
old milongueros in BsAs dance." and "While each is unique, you can identify
a stylistic commonality". Now, the women in my *community* will can that
commonality "tango". While some teachers insist in creating sharp
distinctions between styles, I prefer to just teach them how to hold each
other and move to the music while navigating the floor. Some students from
other teachers ask very fearfully if I was going to dance with the dreaded
*open* style when I asked them to dance. They made many excuses about their
dancing even before we started to dance! My students will just dance with
whoever the ask or accept to the best of their ability because they have not
been taught that some styles are *bad* or *not authentic*, or *difficult*,
or *not appropriate to the milongas*, etc.
While apilado is one style danced in Bs As, it is by no means the only style
or even the most popular. Everyone dances with a close embrace (not
necessarily apilado) until very late in the evening when the floor opens up
and then the dancers can dance more openly and do more figures. The close
embrace *is* taught very much in the USA. We (Ronda, Gabriela and I) teach
it every time we teach the salida. We do not teach apilado but we do teach
the close embrace.
It is too bad that you felt ripped off when you first went to Argentina.
What you were taught was obviously not apilado dancing and you did not know
how to hold a woman in a close embrace either. That might have been the
fault of your teachers (who were they anyway?) but it might just have been
that the way they taught did not concentrate on the embrace to the detriment
of your dance. Perhaps now that you dance apilado you feel more at ease in
the milongas. Good for you!
Any student of mine who works at it will learn to dance in a way perfectly
suited for the milongas of Bs As or anyplace else. They learn to hold the
close embrace yet keeping their own balance and managing to navigate the
floor quite well.
I think is quite OK to discuss anything related to tango in this forum. Even
romance, feelings and passion. I just found it curious that you had problems
in your community finding the balance between analyzing the apilado style
and expressing emotions while dancing it ;-)
In Atlanta we never had this problem. We dance tango and enjoy it greatly.
The analysis is generally (and rarely) used only during advanced level
classes. Maybe you all could try this in Colorado and see how it works for
you.
It did seem that your event had a certain air(?) of exclusivity. I though I
denoted a very sharp distinction made between your way of dancing(?) tango
and that of others. It almost sounds like an *Us and Them* sort of
proposition. I think you are doing a very nice thing by staging this tango
exchange(?), but it does sound a bit "our way or no way". What's most
puzzling is this distinction that seems to be created to separate some tango
groups from the others. Frankly, I really do not see these distinctions in
tango. "Milonguero" style is a coined phrase. It means danced like the
milongueros do. That is what all the milongueros do. Everybody go goes to
the milongas all the time is a milonguero. It really means nothing. There is
no way tango can be so delineated. It is too big, there are too many styles.
Almost everyone has his or her own way to dance, all these ways are
milonguero styles because we all go to the milongas.
I dance like a milonguero because I'm a milonguero. I might not dance like
you or some other guy but that does not make my dance any more authentic
than yours or his. I'll not say that my dancing is like the Argentines dance
and yours is not. I say, dance however you like and however you can. Please
enjoy yourself and find some joy in the enjoyment of others too. Good luck
with all your tango activities and thank you again for your generous
invitation. You are welcome to come to Atlanta too. You'll find that plenty
of Tanturi, Troilo, Darienzo are played and danced here. Also Calo, Laurenz,
Demare, Di Sarli and more. Oh yeah, plenty of Pugliese too and even
Piazzolla. You can hold the women here as close and as tight as they'll
allow it, and nobody will ever ask you to do any firuletes you are not
comfortable with ;-)
Pleasant franeleos to all,
Manuel
End of TANGO-L Digest - 16 Jul 2000 to 17 Jul 2000 (#2000-195)
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