The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 5 Jul 2000
to 6 Jul 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 03:00:31 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 5 Jul 2000 to 6 Jul 2000 (#2000-184)
There are 9 messages totalling 365 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. non-argentine tango
2. Tangasms in BsAs (2)
3. Women/classes.
4. practice practice,
5. Let's hear the music/and lyrics and dance (Roques)
6. Women/classes/Metamorphosis. (2)
7. Tango as an Urban Folk Dance (was: The Anal-ytic School of Tango)
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:28:12 -0400
From: robin thomas <ic11788 @MAIL.INFOHOUSE.COM>
Subject: non-argentine tango
i'm very interested in the international history of the tango. i
heard that tango was phenomenally popular in its day all across
europe. i
have some excellent russian tango and have heard that tango is to
this day the national dance of finland. does anyone know how
differently the dance was danced in these places far from argentina.
was it more like american tango? can anyone recommend any
other non argentine tango music? if anyone is interested i highly
recommend pyotor leshinko's music in russian from the 1920's. i
convinced one of my instructors to play some of his music at a
practica recently and everyone seemed to enjoy it.
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 15:55:35 -0500
From: Tom Ronquillo <tigrre @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Tangasms in BsAs
At 11:14 AM 7/4/00 -0400, Ingle, Nancy wrote:
> Can a mature woman, more Marilyn than Audrey, praised for her
>intelligence rather than her beauty, with about six years of tango
>experience find happiness and awesome tango dancing in BsAs? The answer
>is a definitive "YES!"
Greetings to the lovely Nancy and List members,
A mature woman who carries herself well - meaning one who radiates
confidence and quiet sensuality that comes from life's experiences - can
find happiness and awesome tango dancing anywhere in the world, even if she
knows only the simplest of tango fundamentals.
It is worth keeping in mind that, when the dust settles from the stampede
of men rushing toward the youngest of the tangueras, there will be a few
men of discriminating tastes who will continue to scan the room. They will
be looking for that special tanguera - the one who's womanly manner has
been refined by the passing of years.
(Portions snipped)
> My travelling companion is a lovely slim woman, ten years younger,
>with similar dance abilities. You would think she would get all the
>guys, wouldn't you?
I wouldn't think that. The fashion and entertainment industries have
foisted the image of very young and slender (bony?) women as the ultimate
beauty standard for women. In the real world, in many countries, a bit of
roundness in a woman is viewed as sexy by men.
Some tangueras bodies are so thin and delicate that dancing with them is
like dancing with smoke. There just doesn't seem to be much to hold on
to. A more substantial woman, on the other hand, feels solid and vibrant
in the abrazo. They don't feel like they'll break if you do a little
zarandeo (shake) with them.
There is a place in the milonga for women and men of all ages and
sizes. Everyone will have their particular preferences in partners for
experiencing the tango moment. I am merely claiming a spot for the old folks.
El Tigre - a half-century old tanguero
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:41:46 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Women/classes.
This message is geared towards North America, only.
Since first posting my concern about women complaining
about not being asked to dance in a milonga and finding
out that many women do not go to classes, I have found
some interesting information.
When I first got involved in Argentine Tango by taking classes,
I realized that I would be dancing with many different kinds
of men. I already assumed in the beginning that these men
would not all be Mr. Perfect/Beautiful. I never thought that
I was Ms. Perfect/Beautiful. But I made myself as nice as
I could be for the classes, grooming myself for what I thought
was tangoeeee. I made myself as pretty as possible for the
classes. I never went to a milonga until I had taken classes
for three months. And then I was still nervous about whether
or not I was ready for a milonga.
My teacher never told me that I had done a step incorrectly
only to get the money each time -- in fact my teacher encouraged
me to go to the milonga.
And of course, in my classes, the teacher insisted on constant
rotation.
So, of course, I danced with many men. Many men who were
learning tango in classes, and maybe didn't know that there was
a different group of women out there who would judge these men.
Women who wanted to dance with men who did not have bad
breath, body odor, bad leading techniques, ugly, big, or whatever.
I have witnessed at least two metamorphoses where men who began
taking classes turned into incredible Mr. Beautifuls.
The only reason that I was able to witness these two instances is
because I danced with them when they were not Mr. Beautifuls and
I remember what they were like. But I wanted them to be a part of
what I have a very good feeling for -- Argentine Tango -- and, over
a period of a couple of years these men metamorphosed into the kind
of men that the picky women want to dance with.
And now they have the power to look at those women and say
whatever they want to say.
I will add that I guess I am lucky because this happens on the West
Coast of North America. Apparently, from what I hear, it will never
happen in any other part of North America.
Deborah
B.A. Tango
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 03:01:03 -0700
From: Cammie Strange <milonguera @DELLNET.COM>
Subject: Re: practice practice,
Another issue which comes up here in Colorado, is a not uncommon feeling
among the women that classes by most visiting teachers focus much more on
teaching to the leaders and much less for the followers. Certainly there
are obvious exceptions (among the teachers). Also, I don't feel this way
personally, probably because I lead a lot myself, but I have heard many
other women make this complaint. Cammie Strange.
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:52:49 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Let's hear the music/and lyrics and dance (Roques)
Charles Roques wrote:
>One needs to distinguish between the tangos meant to
be listened to and the ones that are for dancing. <
All Tangos are meant to be listened to (and liked /
tolerated / disliked); among them some (in this or
that interpretation) are better, some not so great for
social dancing (resp., for an authentic performance,
a tango-inspired ballet number, etc.) These are
obviously also matters of taste, though it makes sense
to formulate a criterion or two, as I tried to do
earlier. I do not think that there is disagreement
here. I believe it is worth splitting hairs in this
case, because it is precisely false dichotomies that
allow rules of propriety to be formulated which then
people are induced to adopting as substitutes for
independent judgment, which is so much riskier And in
the process interesting possibilities and
experimentation are shut off.
Also wrote:
> it is wonderful to dance to the melody of the song
and not just the tempo. I love dancing to the sung
melody of "La Mulateada" <
I was ready some time ago to toss this idea of
dancing to the melody to the bulging heap of tango
nonsense & myth, since nothing in my (admittedly not
vast) musical education equipped me to make any
practical sense of the concept.
But then I heard (I hope, accurately) Master Carlos
Gavito explain that one should dance the melody, but
step on the beat. My take on that is that one shapes
choreographic phrasing in response to melodic
phrasing, and anchors one s walk on the pulse of the
music, which is most strongly expressed in the
accompaniment, as a rule.
Whether this is or not what he meant, it makes a lot
of sense to me; and it does seem quite in accord with
the way he dances. I joked once that a step is
something you do between two veeery looong pauses. So,
which beats one steps on, and which ones one skips, is
dictated by one s response to melodic phrasing---kind
of. (But I am still half-joking).
The only trouble is that calling this dancing to
the melody (presumably, as opposed to dancing to the
accompaniment) would not do. It certainly does not
make any clearer to me what that might be. But,
humbled by my earlier mistake, I would like to ask
Charles and/or anyone else to enlighten me.
Let us take two extreme examples. We have a computer
interpretation of Yankee Doodle , no human error: the
accompaniment is strictly mechanical, and the melody
fits mathematically into the accompaniment as per the
composer s score, with all the interpretation
directions removed (e.g., no cresc s or rall s). Since
stepping on every note of the melody, or something of
that ilk, would not produce great results even for
Yankee Doodle , I presume that there would be no
difference in this case---but I want to be sure.
Next let us assume an equally mechanical accompaniment
for Discepolo/Mores Uno , and an extremely soulful &
idiosyncratic rendition of the melody on top, with as
much rubato as the singer could throw in and still not
get arrested. This would make the melody and the
accompaniment as different as possible.
I know what dancing to the accompaniment would be.
What would dancing to the melody be? Anchoring one s
steps on the downbeats of the melody, which would be
displaced from those of the accompaniment (regardless
of whether or not a step fell on a tone of the
melody)? Stepping on strategic tones of the melody?
Something else? I am looking for this kind of
precision.
By the way, I find everything else in Charles s
posting very useful and to the point.
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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:02:51 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Women/classes/Metamorphosis.
Hi all,
I am curious whether practice has the same end
result for both leaders and followers.
It seems to me that as one gets better as a leader,
one is able to dance and enjoy the dance with
followers of differing abilities. That is, no matter
what the exact ability of the follower is, the joy
out of the dance can more or less the same(of
course, there will be occassional dances which will
stand out in memory among others).
Where as, as followers, as one gets better the less
one would enjoy those leaders who can not lead as well
thus the number of dances enjoyed progressively
decreasing...?
rajan.
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:03:34 +0200
From: Jean-Pierre Jacquet <jpjfilms @CYBERCABLE.FR>
Subject: Re: Women/classes/Metamorphosis.
Hi,
I have a practical way (some might say cynical) of looking at
practicas: if the follower is very good, I hope to hold my own and come
out a better dancer by picking up pointers from the follower's body
language. If the follower is not as adequate as one would hope, I just
practice (selfishly) certain specifics of mine which need work, hoping
that the both of us will get something out of it. As in tennis, playing
against a better player will make you raise the level of your game,
playing against a lesser player will allow you to hone down some of your
skills.No harm done either way. I save my better efforts (tuning in to
the partner's sensibilities and the music, etc...) for the milongas.
Rajan, perhaps I'll see u at the Latina (the quais look iffy because of
the weather...) tonight...
Jean-Pierre Jacquet
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:00:15 -0400
From: rtara <rtara @MAINE.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: Tangasms in BsAs
Nancy,=20
You said it very well. I have had similar experiences in BsAs.
I have also noticed that the quality of my experiences on any given night
was tied directly to MY mood and attitude.
The other major difference I've noticed between North America and BsAs is
that the men (and women) in BsAs spend a lot of time watching to see who th=
e
good dancers are. Here, the men are in such demand that they never have a
chance to just sit and watch the other dancers and many women feel they mus=
t
dance every tanda to make the evening a success. There is so much to be
learned watching that I do not mind missing a tanda or two unless valses or
milongas are playing. I will also pass up opportunities to dance if the
music is not to my liking.
Another tip is to avoid the milongas which are so crowded that the dancers
create a solid wall, making it impossible to see the men who might be tryin=
g
to make eye contact from across the room. I found this was often a problem
at Ni=F1o Bien when I wasn't sitting with partners who already knew me. These
are the times when that little wink or smile from the dance floor sometimes
helps.
Robin
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 20:54:32 +0200
From: andy Ungureanu <Andy.Ungureanu @T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: Tango as an Urban Folk Dance (was: The Anal-ytic School of Tango)
As a resumee of the past postings on this subject, many people seem to
have difficulites acheiving the desirated level of emotional connection
with the music or /and the partner.
They blame the overanalysing (by the instructors or themselfs) of
techniques and patterns for this.
I think this is not the fault of the instructors. There is some wrong
expectation. You go to the class, pay the money and expect the ability
to dance like God (without too much effort). There are no mystic secrets
to be revelated in 90 minutes. He may show movements, explain movements,
correct you, even analyse the movements if you are interested (very few
instructors analyse if they are not asked for). But there are no secrets
to be explained how to enjoy music.
It is very hard to teach musicality. What a teacher can offer is
technique. He may show the way he is interpreting the music. But this is
his way. All you can do is copy it. If you want him to explain the music
you get again analysis of tango music. How can you explain feelings?
If you think your head is full of patterns and analysis, there is a very
simple solution. Just forget the classes for a while. Forget even the
milonga. After some time (days, weeks) listen some tango again (at home
or in the car). Do you miss something? Do you suddenly want to leave
home to the next milonga? Sit down and imagine: how would you dance to
this special song? Would you like to walk slowly or fast, make a turn, a
stop? Do you need to make the sophisiticated pattern you learned the
last week? If you dont, just forget it and imagine something simple. Now
you can leave home and go dancing.
The main question is: Do you like the music? If not, try to find
something else. If you answer yes, even before attending the first
class, you won.
If you think you want to learn something new, then you may go to the
class again.
Happy tangos to all
Andy
End of TANGO-L Digest - 5 Jul 2000 to 6 Jul 2000 (#2000-184)
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