The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 31 Jan 2000
to 1 Feb 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 31 Jan 2000 to 1 Feb 2000 (#2000-31)
There are 16 messages totalling 581 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Esteban and Claudia (Re: New teachers at the CITA)
2. Fwd: Re: Escuela Bohemia
3. Live Music in Austin, Tx
4. Women asking men to dance (5)
5. Fresedo -- El Espiante
6. The Joy of Dancing to Live Music
7. Fresedo CD
8. Copes, Piazzolla, and ?
9. Fw: Rosi's comment
10. National Geographic Tango Documentary
11. More on Women asking men to dance
12. Additional showings of National Geographic documentary
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:19:41 +0100
From: Mohan Pakkurti <erapakk @KI.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject: Re: Esteban and Claudia (Re: New teachers at the CITA)
I have to say that I took classes with them in Stockholm, and am
greatly disappointed. Their dancing is magnificent. Their teaching,
at-least when they deal with beginners needs a lot of help. Let me
clarify.
I am a beginning tango dancer, and found them to be rather unhelpful.
I was in a recent beginner class in Stockholm. The beginner class,
started with them demonstrating a complex move, with some turns and
rhythm changes, and they said, try it! That is it, no explanations or
anything...half hour later, they said, oh! I guess you need some
work with the basic stuff, and we tried the same sequence for the next
hour. I think that teachers have to be aware of the level of the
students they are dealing with. It is grossly careless, if they teach
to the level of the couple of advanced dancers who have signed up for
a beginner class, and ignore the fact that most of the people in class
are beginners.
And guess what they talked about in the last 10 minutes of the second
hour of classes the next day. walking exercises...
Their dancing is great, both to watch and analyze. Their teaching
maybe more useful for people who already understand and can execute
the basics atleast reasonably.
Mohan
Jari Aalto+mail.priv writes:
> * Wed 2000-01-19 Helaine Treitman <treitman @giotto.org> list.tango
> * Message-Id: <01BF6289.AAD52440.treitman @giotto.org>
> | Peter knows Esteban and Claudia much better than I do, and everything I was
> | about to offer about this couple he has already said beautifully. I want t
o
> | add something, as a follower and woman who has worked with Claudia.
> |
> | I took classes with them for three days last summer at Tangomania
> | Summerfestival in Sasso Marconi, Bologna. They are serious, dedicated
> | teachers. Claudia worked hard with me on my technique in all the classes,
and
> | was very demanding, for which I was grateful. More than any other teacher,
> | Claudia helped me really improve my giro, which I've been working on for ye
ars
> ,
> | and it was a breakthrough for me. I would choose her classes, followers, i
f
> | you want to clean up your technique, but you have to let her know you want
to
> | work.
>
> I have been participating 2 courses of this couple in Sweden
> Stockholm with my partner Heini Soutamo. I've also seen the big stars
> (Zotto, Arcuri ..) in the last summer's intrernational Tango Festival
> in Spain, Valencia.
>
> In any day, I would choose Claudio and Esteban and recommend them highly
> to anyone asking for exellent instructors.
>
> Their style is "real tango". The kind of tango that makes you take a
> deep breath and say vow! Esteban's leaning position is perfect for the
> lady to be able to feel how the lead is evolving. From this position
> the figures are always done "together" and it assists in finding the
> balance due to close embrace (which you must work hard to get it
> right).
>
> Would anyone have their address and contact information, because we would
> like to invite them to finland to give a workshop in the future.
>
> jari
>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:00:31 -0600
From: Naomi Bennett <Naomiben @SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Escuela Bohemia
I have taken private and group lessons with Norma Tomai Gomez, wife of
Ernesto Carmona.
She is a wonderful teacher and can speak english. I enjoy my lessons very
much and she works hard to help me improve my dancing. She was one of the
best best leaders I have danced with, which is saying a lot when I am
dancing every night in Buenos Aires.
I have yet to meet Ernesto since he is constantly traveling Europe, giving
classes.
I found the group lessons valuable since there were so many strong leaders
in the intermediate and advanced classes and each had different styles if
dancing.
Norma's email is bohemia @fibertel.com.ar if you wish to contact her or the
school.
Naomi Bennett
Austin, TX
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:17:29 -0600
From: Naomi Bennett <Naomiben @SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Live Music in Austin, Tx
We have a very good tango orchestra that resides in Austin, Tx, the live
music capitol of the world. This is not my claim, but of the City of
Austin. It also hosts a very famous music festival every spring, South by
Southwest. There are more nightclubs and music groups here because of Univ
of Texas with over 50,000 students.
Our tango group, Tosca, has 3 CD's out. The leader, Glover Johns Gill, is
an excellent accordianist (not the bandoneon) and composer in the Piazzolla
style. They play live three nights each week in Austin and travel around
in Texas and to the West Coast. Last August they received rave reviews in
Los Angeles on their tour. The group consists of a pianist, 2 violins, one
bass, and the accordianist and leader. An occasional sax or clarinet will
play too. They all come from a classical music background.
Produced by Nois Records, 1905 Goodrich, Austin, TX 78704. Two titles for
the CD's are "Tia Pamelita" and "Amado". They proudly state on the CD
jacket, no bar code, no email, no website. Sorry.
We have a small tango community of about 50-70 people and we are a bit
spoiled by being able to dance about 5 nights a week with three of them to
live music. It is a challenge to dance with Piazzolla but like all tango
music, repetition to a style will bring out a dancer's creativity.
Naomi Bennett
Austin, TX
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:29:35 EST
From: Cherie Magnus <MACFroggy @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Women asking men to dance
Hola List!
Well here we back on the same subject that will never be resolved, but is
obviously one that people want to talk about.
Copes said during Duvall's tango program on KCBS last night,
*Men are men, women are women. A man proposes, a woman disposes.*
I believe that too. I have no wish to switch roles and to do the proposing
and leading. So I am content to wait to be invited.
As Cammie brought out, there are many men (and especially in Argentina) who
don't take kindly to a woman being forward and aggressive on the dance floor.
And so it's difficult for a woman to know which men want to choose, and which
men want to be chosen. If she approaches the wrong type, she's committed a
horrible gaffe in his eyes.
This is a traditional dance, with a history and a code. That's part of the
pleasure. At least for me.
Cherie Magnus
http://www.viveladifference.com
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:34:55 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Fresedo -- El Espiante
El Espiante is among the tangos on the EMI CD Osvaldo Fresedo,
Coleccion Aniversario that was released in Argentina in 1999.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:17:51 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw @MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Women asking men to dance
Hi Cherie and Estimados Listeros,
> As Cammie brought out, there are many men (and especially in Argentina)
> who don't take kindly to a woman being forward and aggressive on the
> dance floor. And so it's difficult for a woman to know which men want
> to choose, and which men want to be chosen. If she approaches the wrong
> type, she's committed a horrible gaffe in his eyes.
In the many incarnations of this discussion, I have not heard it
acknowledged that friendly women have less trouble with being asked than
those who sit in isolation. There is alot of grey area here and the
situation is obviously different when one is at home versus away from
home. But here's what I see. Those ladies with enough tact to "just
happen" to be engaged in friendly conversation when a tanda changes will
be the first choices of the leaders with whom they are chatting. They
almost place a burden of *not* asking on the leaders, but their demeanor
is everything in this regard. I have follower friends who never
actually ask me to dance, but only "happen by" for conversation when
dancing is clearly what they prefer. It's a step removed from literally
requesting a dance, they are not actually refused if I'm busy or I've
promised the dance to somebody else, and then they have gotten my
attention for when I'm free.
So tell me, is there an ego thing here where some women take greater
pleasure in being selected if they make themselves increasingly
inconspicuous? ...like being more sought-after? What are the "codes"
for women "working the room"? I believe there are venues that lend
themselves to meeting and dancing with strangers and there are those
that are so impersonal that even gregarious people are uncomfortable
approaching others. I prefer if the "rest area" is not too spread out.
Then those who are not dancing are close enough that it promotes the
kind of non-dance socializing that leads to dance invitations. When
such an arrangement does not exist then you have to adapt and be more
outgoing. If the local "code" forbids leaders from approaching a
woman's table without an unspoken acceptance of an unspoken invitation
to dance, and if no offers to dance are turning up, then what good is
the stupid table doing (not to mention the code)? I am of the opinion
that (in the USA), a) wall flowers contribute to their own predicament
when they just sit, and b) leaders who are too "tight" to even be
addressed by women for a cordial greeting are worthless anyway because
they detract from the dynamic energy of the group.
I am not generalizing to venues outside of the USA, but here (IMHO) the
fewer people you know, the more of your effort should go into making
acquaintances and that means plainly (brazenly?) asking for
introductions. If an introduction fails to lead to a dance, followers,
you can always test the leader's vanity with a bit of subtle flattery.
;-) Speaking only for myself, if somebody complimented my dancing and
then I didn't offer one dance, I'd feel like a real schlump!
Warm tangos, all!
Frank in Minneapolis
--
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D.
frankw @lenti.med.umn.edu
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:41:07 -400
From: Dona Bowman <dbowman @BSA3.KENT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Women asking men to dance
There is a middle ground here.
A woman can approach a man, compliment him on his dancing, and tell
him she would enjoy dancing with him some time. Then she returns to
her table/seat/whatever.
Now that the suggestion has been planted, in due time the man may
decide to invite her to dance. Now we have a win-win situation.
Dona
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:26:01 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: The Joy of Dancing to Live Music
Having greatly enjoyed most of my previous experiences dancing to live
music, I would rather not dwell on possible negative aspects of doing so.
But Tom's and Dan's responses to my previous remarks lead me think that they
and others may have misinterpreted what I wrote. I would like to clarify.
Previously I wrote:
>One of the shortcomings of dancing to live music, however, is that if the
>orchestra drops the rhythm ... the dancers may find themselves dancing
>poorly without really understanding why. ...
By dropping the rhythm, I was not referring to an orchestra that departs
from the approaches taken by D'Arienzo or Di Sarli by syncopating, varying
the tempo, or playing in a pure jazz rhythm (all of which I enjoy). I was
referring to a particular manner of playing poorly in which the orchestra
fails to keep time accurately and unknowingly slows down and speeds up
throughout a song.
--Steve de Tejas
P.S. Tom wrote:
>I like DiSarli, but I am coming to despise the use of this slow and solid music
>for teaching beginners. On the other hand giving them Biagi or Tanturi doesn't
>work if they can't hear and feel the music.
Susan and I frequently use the tangos on the Canaro CD, La Melodia de Nuestro
Adios, to teach beginners to hear the walking beat of tango. A few of the more
experienced dancers in the community no longer want to hear the tangos from this
CD played at milongas. They say the reminder of walking practice seems to have
lessened the magic of the music for them.
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:13:26 -0500
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Women asking men to dance
I'll second Dona's "middleground point". No imposition, but expressed
interest. Aggressive, yet subtle. It works every time.:}
Eugenia
Dona Bowman wrote:
>
> There is a middle ground here.
>
> A woman can approach a man, compliment him on his dancing, and tell
> him she would enjoy dancing with him some time. Then she returns to
> her table/seat/whatever.
>
> Now that the suggestion has been planted, in due time the man may
> decide to invite her to dance. Now we have a win-win situation.
>
> Dona
>
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:58:55 -0800
From: Sramana Mitra <sramana.mitra @UUMA.COM>
Subject: Re: Women asking men to dance
:-)
just like other little things where we like to accept traditions
because they are charming...
like a man opening the door?
being driven to the party, or home?
being picked up for a date?
being courted?
being seduced?
being kissed?
being undressed?
being given a ring?
several of the above are not as elegant if you reverse the roles!
Sramana
> This is a traditional dance, with a history and a code. That's part of the
> pleasure. At least for me.
>
> Cherie Magnus
Sramana Mitra
President & CEO
sramana @uuma.com
415-905-5566 x209 voice
408-602-8914 cell
415-905-5560 fax
Win $5,000 in designer clothing at http://www.uuma.com - sign up today!
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:30:09 -0600
From: Robert Schoenberg2 <robert.schoenberg @US.AKERMAR.COM>
Subject: Fresedo CD
Thanks to all who helped me find the Fresedo C.D. I was looking for. I wound up buying "Las Grandes Orquestras del Tango" a 2 c.d. set. I tried to e-mail everyone who helped me directly but some of my mail bounced.
Regards,
Robert
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:42:21 -0500
From: Robinne Gray <rlg2 @CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Copes, Piazzolla, and ?
Sang Hyeon Chang wrote:
>You can find this article in
>http://www.piazzolla.org/centro/copes.html
>There is an old picture which shows a Copes and Piazzolla (both quite
>young) on the same stage.
Wonderful to see these old photos. But who's the unidentified "babe"?
--Robinne
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:49:23 -0500
From: Enrico Massetti <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Fw: Rosi's comment
> At Roberto Maiolo's Friday milonga in Coral
> Gables, FL. he made the same announcement several weeks ago, in fact,
the
> rumors go that Mara moved from Arizona to Miami and he married her for
> whatever reasons.
>
> Rosi:
>
>Jorge Nel is not married to Mara, and when I spoke to him this morning, he
> wondered, what business is it of yours if he is or isn't married to her,
> which I repeat, he is not, and as to the whatever reasons, your
implications
> are slanderous and you'd better be able to back them up or, since you
> disseminated that wrong information throughout the Tango L list, you
should
> apologise to Jorge Nel for your lack of tact and sensibility, and make
that a
> public apology.
>
> Frank Sasson
> Miami Florida
Rosi, and List Owner:
Tango-L is NOT and should not be a communication medium to disseminate
GOSSIPs on ANY individual involved in whatever way with the world of tango.
If you don't apologize immediately, and if the list owner does not take any
action,
then we can expect to start seeing messages on who a specific lady danced
more
tangos with last night, to end up with what gossips on what they shared
after the
dance.... this is NOT what should be on Tango-L, even if it can happen every
day
(or better, every night).
Enrico Massetti
Tampa, Florida
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:27:58 -0800
From: Mark Celaya <mark-joan-tango @JUNO.COM>
Subject: National Geographic Tango Documentary
Hello everyone,
Last night (sun. 1/30/00) most of us, I believe, watched the tango
documentary presented by National Geographic, which was actually a
re-broadcast that had been originally shown 6 years ago. Although I
enjoyed watching it again, I was somewhat disappointed that much was
edited from the original version, so much so that the full impact was
missing from what I had experienced before. Missing was the nice
insightful tribute to Carlos Gardel & many profound statements during the
course of the program, especially those by Maria Nieves near the end of
the show.
Originally, the presentation had a more defined message regarding the
tango and its state 6 years ago, and projected that definition in a more
cohesive manner. In my opinion, it still achieved that effect somewhat,
but also it came across as "a little of this and a little of that".
Because of the omissions, Robert Duvall`s statements near the end of the
show lost their full climactic impact that they should have & originally
had.
Still, I hope everyone enjoyed it, but if that was your first viewing,
try to find a copy of the original and I think you will understand more,
what I was trying to say here.
On a more positive note, I think that the dancing of the New York
tangueros, Charles Rogues et al, at the beginning of the show, was a
welcome addition - very nice, very impressive.
Regards,
Mark Celaya
http://home.att.net/~mark-joan-tango
________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:24:06 -0800
From: Cammie Strange <milonguera @DELLNET.COM>
Subject: More on Women asking men to dance
Dona Bowman wrote:
"There is a middle ground here.
A woman can approach a man, compliment him on his dancing, and tell
him she would enjoy dancing with him some time. Then she returns to
her table/seat/whatever.
Now that the suggestion has been planted, in due time the man may
decide to invite her to dance. Now we have a win-win situation."
Eugenia Spitkovsky wrote:
"I'll second Dona's "middleground point". No imposition, but expressed
interest. Aggressive, yet subtle. It works every time.:}"
Eugenia, and Dona, I don't necessarily agree. It is a nice idea, and will
work with some men or at certain times, but with others it can be just
as much a "kiss of death" as asking directly. Cammie Strange.
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:19:46 -0800
From: Cammie Strange <milonguera @DELLNET.COM>
Subject: Additional showings of National Geographic documentary
I watched and taped the special with interest last night but was
disappointed
that it was so short. Does anyone know how long the original was? Also, I
wanted to let everyone know that, at least locally, it is scheduled to be
repeated several times on CNBC (these times are Mountain Standard Time):
Friday, February 4, 2000 at 6:00 pm
Friday, February 4, 2000 at 9:00 pm
Saturday, February 5, 2000 at 6:00 pm
Saturday, February 5, 2000 at 9:00 pm
Sunday, February 6, 2000 at 6:00 pm
Sunday, February 6, 2000 at 9:00 pm
Friday, February 11, 2000 at 6:00 pm
Friday, February 11, 2000 at 9:00 pm
Also, it was at the beginning of the two hour special on jaguars.
Cammie Strange, Colorado
End of TANGO-L Digest - 31 Jan 2000 to 1 Feb 2000 (#2000-31)
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