The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 24 Jan 2000
to 25 Jan 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 03:00:09 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 24 Jan 2000 to 25 Jan 2000 (#2000-24)
There are 6 messages totalling 303 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Too much of a good thing! Tango Congresses Galore! (2)
2. I need to contact Milena Plebs!
3. Tango Documentary
4. Thinking and Feeling (and inner tango)
5. Thinking and Feeling
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Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:08:10 -0700
From: Kathleen Bober <kbober @FLASH.NET>
Subject: Re: Too much of a good thing! Tango Congresses Galore!
Arthur and all,
I believe Jorge Nel is organizing his Tango Congress with his new partner,
Mara Carlson. For all of you that saw Mara and Jorge's demonstrations at
their new milonga in Hallandale on Jan. 4, I'm sure you are well aware what
a wonderful addition Mara is to the Miami area. Best of luck to her and
Jorge.... we miss her a great deal here in Tucson.
Kathleen Bober
> From: Arthur Greenberg <AHGberg @AOL.COM>
> To:
> Subject: Too much of a good thing! Tango Congresses Galore!
>
> It seems to me that there are "too many" "congresses and work shops" in
> such a short span of time for me to properly partake of.
>
> In the meanwhile here in the USA there are two separate and distinct...
> One Tango Congress is organized and presented by
> Randy & Lydia! The other by Jorge Nel and Marta ( Marta and Lydia are
> sisters).
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:36:55 -0000
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Too much of a good thing! Tango Congresses Galore!
It's interesting to see that the prevailing currents are now going against
the "tango weeks" and other organized events around travelling teachers.
While it is true that now more than ever there are many choices available to
the tangueros(as), maybe this is not such a bad thing. Maybe the tango scene
is growing more and more and so is the pool of potential "customers" to all
these tango events. Another good thing is that with more choices, more
people can attend who otherwise might not. What would make this "growth"
even better would be if more tango communities who host the events so they
would be available in a wider geographical area.
Anyway, my opinion is that no matter how many events are offered, it should
not be difficult to make a choice, or if one is lucky enough (and wealthy
enough), attend them all ! I've chosen to attend CITA 2000 in Bs As, and
Randy's Tango congress in Miami this year. Of course, this does not mean
that I cannot go for a tango weekend somewhere else as well ;-) I've been to
Bs As before, once without any organized tour or event and again for CITA
'99. I really love my visits to Bs As, there is nothing like the tango scene
in Bs As and I hope to continue to travel there in the future. If one's main
focus is to tango, CITA is the best choice. OTOH, if you want to do more
sightseeing or visit other parts or Argentina, it would be better to extend
one's visit to allow time for everything.
Anyway, with all the new tango activities available, there is hardly a
reason left not to attend a tango congress or weekend somewhere in the
world!
Manuel
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:10:11 +0100
From: "Gabriella C. Marino" <gcmarino @IOL.IT>
Subject: I need to contact Milena Plebs!
Hello everyone,
A friend of mine would like to organise a tango festival in Italy and would
love to contact Milena Plebs as guest star. The trouble is, no one here
seems to know her address. Do we have to go through Julio Alvarez for
Europe?
I'd appreciate your help.
TIA,
Gabriella
Parma, Italy
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:19:26 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Tango Documentary
Greetings,
On Sunday, Jan. 30, 2000, CNBC (for those who have cable service) will
rebroadcast the Tango documentary made a few years ago and hosted by Robert
Duvall. The program will air at 8:00 pm EST as part of the National
Geographic Explorer series.
The show will have a new introduction, shot recently at Sandra Cameron Dance
Center, with a number of the faculty and students dancing tango in the
background. It is only a couple of minutes long but if any one would like the
names of the dancers, send me an e-mail.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:51:02 -0600
From: Joe Grohens <joe @WOLFRAM.COM>
Subject: Re: Thinking and Feeling (and inner tango)
Warning -- long, possibly insufferable, reflection on the tired thread of
"thinking/not thinking". Apologies in advance if this is boring.
Larry Carroll wrote:
> Some of the disagreement in this discussion comes from using
> "thinking" in several different ways.
Larry identified more kinds of thinking than I had ever heard of
before ... time for me to go get a few books on cog sci, I think.
If Larry cares to suggest a reading list I would love it. (And I'm
not being sarcastic; I think these distinctions are very useful to
those of us who are eggheads enough to apply them (or need them).)
Sometimes I think the main utility of rational analysis of dance
movements is to distract my overweening intellect with something
to chew on so that my body can practice what it needs to do.
Jonathan Thornton wrote:
> Participants in the discussion have also argued about the
> word "feeling". Often not noticing that they were using different
> definitions for the word. Feeling can refer to emotions, to the
> physical senses of touch and kinesthetic of muscle movement etc.,
> as well as a synonym for intuition, or educated guess.
Right. I think one of hidden problems in learning tango is that
ultimately what is required is for both partners to communicate
with each other using their sensory mechanisms. This is hard,
because most of us have faulty kinesthetic appreciation to begin
with and are unable to move our own body without unwittingly
involving extraneous movements that come from habit or blindness.
One of my own shortcomings, for example, is that I slouch forward
when I bend my knees. I can see this in a mirror, but I can't "feel"
it (that is, sense it kinesthetically), and even when my conscious
focus is on staying up in my upper body as I bend my knees, it's
hard not to slump. When I'm immersed in the music and dancing with
a partner who is good, it is difficult to remember even to think
about this.
So, if we have that much trouble sensing what's going on in our
own body, how much harder to sense our partner's movement and
response to us. And this sensing, when it is talked about at all,
is often called "feeling", which probably confuses people into
thinking that it has to do with emotions.
The disassociation of people from their bodies is one thing that
brings people to dance in the first place ... because dance helps
to correct a deficiency. But given this deficiency, teachers have
had to devise lots of crutches, such as patterns, rules (the hands
should always be placed here, the woman should always cross when
they man is outside partner for more than two steps), and more
rules (women should tell where they are going by looking at the
man's chest (or shoulders), women's molinetes should be walked as
if on a circle).
These crutches are helpful, and probably necessary to get people
started. But then you have to unlearn things. My partner, a ballet
dancer and by temperament analytical, tends to latch on to prescriptive
formulae. I find that I am often fighting her because she is
concentrating on using her legs in (her understanding of) the way
the latest teacher said she "should". So that no matter how many
lessons we have, she is always dancing with ideas as well as with
me.
In my younger days I was a jazz musician, and one of the old saws
people would repeat was attributed variously to Louis, Bird, or
someone like that.
A legendary questioner asked "what should I study to become a good
jazz musician." The answer was to learn everything -- practice your
scales, your technique, know your theory, how to read, etc. etc.
until you have mastered it all -- but then forget all that "stuff" and
just play.
This is a true principle, and anyone who becomes good at jazz
improvisation reaches a point there they can play without "thinking"
about scales, chords, what's next, what happened before ... they
are just playing and listening to what comes out. That's the high
point of expressive freedom, but you can't stay up there without
the other stuff that you "forget".
This brings me to Inner Tennis.
>Jonathan Thornton wrote:
> If I wanted to learn tennis I would like to have Gallwey as my
>teacher. I am struggling with trying to find ways to apply his learning
>approach to tango. If anyone on this list has ideas, or is interested in
>"inner tango" I would appreciate hearing from you, either on the list or
>by private email.
Being a 70s jazz musician, I used Inner Tennis to learn to improvise.
The main application of Gallwey's principles was (my interpretation)
not to let the idea of what "should be" hang you up. You're practicing
a tune and you play a wrong note. Don't freak out and start over,
just listen to the note that came out and keep going. And don't
turn away from and reject the mistake. Accept it ... really listen
to the sound of it. Because if you reject the mistake you are
constantly separating yourself from your playing instead of opening
your ears to the sounds that you are making.
Basically tell yourself that it's OK that the wrong note came out.
Incant the (also variously attributed) aphorism "there are only
two kinds of mistakes, those that sound good and those that don't
sound so good". This is like just watching the tennis ball after
you hit it without having a critical corrective action. Just keep
hitting and keep watching. You already know where you want the
ball to go and if you _try_ to fix it by compensation you are likely
to make it worse. Just calmly watch what happens and you will
improve.
(I'm not doing justice to Gallwey here, but those who read his book will
know what I'm talking about.)
This not only gives a different and positive new approach to
practicing an instrument, it also instills the right state of mind
for jazz improvisation. You can't afford to think about what went
wrong when you are improvising... you have to just observe what
happened and keep going. Otherwise you will tie up the flow of
ideas. But if you can stay concentrated in hearing the sounds are
coming out of your instrument, you might play with more feeling
and originality than if you had executed perfectly a phrase that
was merely rehearsed.
I have brought an Inner Tennis concept into Tango in a similar way.
When I step on the wrong foot, or put my partner on the wrong foot,
I don't worry, I just see what can follow that. Sometimes it's not
obvious what can follow, and I just remind myself that long pauses
are very dramatic in tango. :-) At which time my partner sometimes
surprises me with a few beautiful adornos that she was waiting for
me to give her the time to try.
There have been times when I got myself and partner into some odd
positions from which there were no nice solutions. The Inner Tennis
attitude let me say "well, I don't know why I did that, but let's
try again". Sometimes it's so bad that I even have to tell my
partner that we're starting over. The Inner Tennis attitude dictates
"don't worry about that".
This makes dancing tango a lot more fun than thinking that it has
to be executed just so or else you're ruining the dance. It could
be that my dancing style is therefore lacking in polish, but I
know that I'll get better at it.
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 00:29:21 -0800
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Thinking and Feeling
I *think* I'm beginning to get the *feeling* of tango but I *feel* that I
need to *think* about it ;)
Gee, dancing tango is like any other skill. One must learn it to do it
right. There are very few people who just naturally can dance tango well. I
don't believe one can *feel* one's way into dancing tango well any more than
one can *think* one's way into it either. Norwithstanding someones posting
about milongueros being some sort of excellent dancers who never took a
lesson, most people must take some type of training, either formal or
informal to learn anything, then they they must practice it over and over
until they gain mastery over it. Then, magically :-), tango dancing (or
anything else for that matter) becomes easy and is done almost effortlessly,
without *thinking* about doing it or *feeling* one's way through it.
IMHO, it is a waste of time (as far as gaining mastery of tango) to put so
much energy into investigating whether thinking or feeling is the superior
activity for learning. I find that I learn by watching and practicing the
movements of the dance but also I find it absolutely necessary to have the
feedback and help (kinesthetic as well as academic) of an experienced and
talented teacher. After I've gained a modicum of mastery over the movements,
they just become easy and I just dance. Personally, I think and feel all the
time and in all the ways so eruditely explained by others in the list. I
would be hard pressed to have to choose to do one and not the other.
Thinking and feeling is what I do as a sentient human being. Dancing tango
is what I do because it is my personal predilection. I cannot separate any
of these things from each other.
Cogito ergo tango? ;-)
Manuel
End of TANGO-L Digest - 24 Jan 2000 to 25 Jan 2000 (#2000-24)
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