The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 14 Jan 2000
to 15 Jan 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 03:00:11 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 14 Jan 2000 to 15 Jan 2000 (#2000-14)
There are 5 messages totalling 230 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Thinking
2. Tango and Martial Arts (2)
3. assemblage point
4. Responses and Thinking
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:04:28 EST
From: Jack Karako <JKarako @AOL.COM>
Subject: Thinking
The discussion on this topic made me think about what bothered me most when I hear statements to the effect of "don't think just feel".
In general I agree with Marry's comments defending thinking. Michael made a common error which deserves attention: he said that he didn't mean just not think, but relax, concentrate (which is thinking) on lead follow etc... which is mostly all true.
The issue is thinking is considered to be so bad that it is a free for all attack concept. When it is shown that thinking is not bad but a necessity then the response becomes "Oh, I didn't mean that".
One should try to say what one means. The way we use words sometimes changes their meaning or worse adds new meanings. Not to think does not mean to relax, to concentrate, to hear, to feel. In this context there is a package deal offered: thinking = bad dancing. Of course that is not what the intention was.
One should be more carefull with the selection of words.
Jak
New York : www.BailaTango.com/nysch.htm
Metins schedule : www.BailaTango.com/mysch2000.htm
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:41:32 +0100
From: Roberto Pambieri <rpambie @TIN.IT>
Subject: Tango and Martial Arts
As far as mental state in Tango, i can see a very close resemblance with
that needed in Martial Arts in general: the training for learning goes
necessarly throught three steps. The first is the one in which you must only
repeat the "movement's ideogram"; in the second step you know the movements
but can only repeat them schematically; finally, the last step comes when,
movements digested, you can use them whithout thinking too much. Attention:
this doesn't mean you act by reflex-actions, because this would lead you to
sterilize your movements, but only being able to react in less time by a
stimulation and to take the right decision with less conscious mind.
Think without thinking: that is "Zen"
Dance without dancing: that is Tango at hight level!
P.S.:Sorry for my bad English.
Roberto.
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:11:16 -0000
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango and Martial Arts
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Hi Roberto,
Your English is just fine ;-) this subject comes up from time to time =
and I can see how the similarities are found. "learning goes necessarly =
throught three steps. The first is the one in which you must only repeat =
the "movement's ideogram"; in the second step you know the movements but =
can only repeat them schematically; finally, the last step comes when, =
movements digested," is a good analogy for the learning of tango (as =
well as many other forms of dance). My objection to equating martial =
arts to Argentine Tango is that the intent of Tango is completely and =
far removed from the intent of martial arts. It takes a big leap of =
imagination to compare the sharing of a tender and sensual dance with a =
partner with a physical assault on an opponent. Of course, I'm sure that =
somebody out there feels like they are locked in combat when they dance =
tango (at least with certain partners) ;-), but I'll leave that subject =
for a braver (more aggressive?) soul :-)
Manuel
Original Message -----=20
From: Roberto Pambieri <rpambie @TIN.IT>
Subject: Tango and Martial Arts
> As far as mental state in Tango, i can see a very close resemblance =
with
> that needed in Martial Arts in general: the training for learning goes
> necessarly throught three steps. The first is the one in which you =
must only
> repeat the "movement's ideogram"; in the second step you know the =
movements
> but can only repeat them schematically; finally, the last step comes =
when,
> movements digested, you can use them whithout thinking too much. =
Attention:
> this doesn't mean you act by reflex-actions, because this would lead =
you to
> sterilize your movements, but only being able to react in less time by =
a
> stimulation and to take the right decision with less conscious mind.
> Think without thinking: that is "Zen"
> Dance without dancing: that is Tango at hight level!
> P.S.:Sorry for my bad English.
> Roberto.
>=20
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hi Roberto,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Your English is just fine ;-) this subject =
comes up from=20
time to time and I can see how the similarities are found. =
<EM>"learning=20
goes necessarly throught three steps. The first is the one in which you =
must=20
only repeat the "movement's ideogram"; in the second step you know the =
movements=20
but can only repeat them schematically; finally, the last step comes =
when,=20
movements digested," </EM>is a good analogy for the learning of tango =
(as well=20
as many other forms of dance). My objection to equating martial arts to=20
Argentine Tango is that the intent of Tango is completely and far =
removed=20
from the intent of martial arts. It takes a big leap of imagination =
to=20
compare the sharing of a tender and sensual dance with a partner with a =
physical=20
assault on an opponent. Of course, I'm sure that somebody out there =
feels like=20
they are locked in combat when they dance tango (at least with certain =
partners)=20
;-), but I'll leave that subject for a braver (more aggressive?) soul=20
:-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Manuel</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>From: Roberto Pambieri <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:rpambie @TIN.IT">rpambie @TIN.IT</A>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Subject: Tango and Martial Arts</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=3D2>> As far as mental state in Tango, i =
can see a=20
very close resemblance with<BR>> that needed in Martial Arts in =
general: the=20
training for learning goes<BR>> necessarly throught three steps. The =
first is=20
the one in which you must only<BR>> repeat the "movement's ideogram"; =
in the=20
second step you know the movements<BR>> but can only repeat them=20
schematically; finally, the last step comes when,<BR>> movements =
digested,=20
you can use them whithout thinking too much. Attention:<BR>> this =
doesn't=20
mean you act by reflex-actions, because this would lead you to<BR>> =
sterilize=20
your movements, but only being able to react in less time by a<BR>>=20
stimulation and to take the right decision with less conscious =
mind.<BR>>=20
Think without thinking: that is "Zen"<BR>> Dance without dancing: =
that is=20
Tango at hight level!<BR>> P.S.:Sorry for my bad English.<BR>>=20
Roberto.<BR>> </FONT></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:58:34 -0800
From: phyllis victory <victory @MARS.ARK.COM>
Subject: assemblage point
hola roberto,
i agree with your comparison of martial arts and dancing. i, too, believe
that
awakening the body to be conscious of the vibration of thought/intent
moving through it is good training. i know that my years of doing tai chi
have helped me in learning the tango. y also, the warrior stance can aid us
in our relationship to "ourself"; one of the many facets of the diamond...
ciao, phyllis
work like you don't need the money
love like you've never been hurt
dance like no one is watching
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:18:46 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Responses and Thinking
Greetings
The ideas about "thinking" while dancing and tuning oneself to learn to
respond have a lot in common. ( And they don't negate feeling. It is a
separate issue. )
Tango is a rather formal and sophisticated dance and there is a lot of
technique to master and think about. Even though response is automatic, it
can be trained. If you practice something enough it becomes habitual and
natural and we tend to do what comes most natural when we have to respond
quickly.
It will gradually become natural to move the correct way and ultimately we
will respond that way because that's all we know to do. As you become
comfortable it will be also natural to want to create or express. Respect the
technique and you will be rewarded. The feelings and responses will follow on
their own.
Cheers,
Charles
End of TANGO-L Digest - 14 Jan 2000 to 15 Jan 2000 (#2000-14)
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