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Digest from 11 Jan 2000 to 12 Jan 2000





Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango          <TANGO-L  @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango          <TANGO-L  @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject:  TANGO-L Digest - 11 Jan 2000 to 12 Jan 2000 (#2000-11)

There are 14 messages totalling 682 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Comments about trips to Argentina 2. BsAs Expectations - music 3. Now a beginner, later a poor dancer 4. I'd like to change the address I use to receive this email? 5. Think Tango! Was: Re: Now a beginner.. 6. Think Tango! (Part 2) 7. tango madness 8. Rethinking Tango (stirring up the pot) 9. Keys to a good dance ( & practising) 10. Thinking/Feeling Dichotomy? (2) 11. Circulating at Milongas 12. [Fwd: Re: re Party Manners] 13. Thinking and Feeling in Argentine Tango


Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 02:23:29 -0800 From: Steve Hoffman <DrSteveH @IBM.NET> Subject: Comments about trips to Argentina Hello Sergio, Thanks for your comments about my Argentina experience. In many ways, I see everything you have described. I have seen it, and enjoyed and participated in it... the warmth, the conversations, the laughter, in other countries, over periods of weeks, or decades. I saw it in Argentina. What I said in my post was that, in spite of trying as hard as I was able, I wasn't fortunate enough to participate in that life while I was there - and that was over four trips totalling 2-1/2 months. I still don't understand it, because in many other locales during that period, I was able to find, enjoy, and contribute to the kind of family and social experience you describe. I will say right now that perhaps you are right, and the fault is mostly mine. But then I would have to wonder why, after so many excellent, fortunate, fun, and adventurous trips over the last 25 years, why was it harder to find someone to talk to in Argentina than any place I have ever been in my life? Just bad luck? It really amazed me, because I really wanted to get into it; that's why I went back three times. And, because, as I said, I really like the country, and I respect the culture. I guess it must be because, as a foreign man, alone, with no contacts, no access, no introductions, no particular dancing skill, no invitation, and very very few hellos ... it's hard to get a foot in the door. But there is something more to consider: Is it possible that your birth and life as an Argentine could simply obscure for you the possibility that a stranger, alone, male, with no help and no support and no "calling card" whatsoever, might not be as welcome as say... you might be, in Argentina? After all, have you ever been alone, foreign, and friendless, in Buenos Aires? I don't wish to offend anyone with my comments, and I hope what I have previously written does not upset people unduly. We can simply let the comments I made expire, if the readership wishes. I have no agenda here, unless it is to experience, think, and speak freely and independently. In my profession we know that if something can happen to one person, it can happen to another. My experience, as a man traveling solo, was very different front the usual story on the list. I thought maybe my story might provide a view to consider, for the guys particularly. I still think so. Anyway. Sorry that you feel offended, Sergio. I ask that you not take it personally. Respectfully, Steve Hoffman


Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 05:44:17 -0800 From: William Alsup <walsup @EUROPA.COM> Subject: Re: BsAs Expectations - music On January 10, 2000 Mitchell Levitan wrote: > ...Don't most musicians have day jobs and don't their > motivations derive > from other considerations than just making a living? NO! NO! NO! Most musicians I know have put in as much training towards their craft as most doctors, lawyers, and other highly-skilled specialists and professionals. Their "day gigs" often consist of hours in practice rooms refining their technique and keeping their "chops" (appropriate specific muscles for playing their instrument) in shape. Actually, "playing" music is a misnomer, one actually "works" to make beautiful music happen. Good musicians make it sound easy - and the easier it sounds, the more work probably went into it. One obviously has to love music a lot to go through all the perilously difficult times that inevitably happen when trying to get good. Okay, so in tango we're basically talking "dance bands," which has a sort of casual non-serious ring to it (like something people might do in their spare time). But the bandoneon is SO DIFFICULT (even to achieve quasi-proficiency). And the amount of practice it takes before a musician can "really rock" - before he/she can really make people want to get up and dance. Orchestras of the golden age (that have withstood the test of time) were peopled with superb musicians who I'm sure took tremendous pride in their WORK. (As an aside, I have friends who have heard some great live bands in Buenos Aires [like "Color Tango" and "Los Reyes del Tango"] so I'm wondering if they went to different venues or if they were there at different times of year than Mitchell.) But my main point is, just because a good musician loves his/her work doesn't mean they should be expected to be any more generous with it than a plumber, car mechanic, dentist, engineer, accountant, or programmer. And of this latter group, how often is the purity of their motivation questioned as they strive to make a living? Bill Alsup Portland, OR


Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:58:00 -0500 From: Michael Ditkoff <Michael.B.Ditkoff @USDOJ.GOV> Subject: Now a beginner, later a poor dancer Liz Borodkin wrote that she is concerned being labeled a poor dancer because she isn't dancing at the level she wants not her partners want. Liz, loosen up. The vast majority of dancers don't dance at the level they want. The best advice is to relax. Tango is a dance of feeling, not thinking. Beginning women are sometimes nervous, bordering on extreme anxiety wondering "Can I follow the lead?, What is he leading, etc.?, If I screw up, is everybody going to notice? Am I going to humiliate myself." The more nervous the woman, the more difficult it is to feel the lead. My teacher tells his students, "Let it happen, don't make it happen." As an example, when a woman has a chance for a boleo, it should be graceful, not look like she's trying to kick a football. For men, the anxiety is "I can't dance as well as the other men so no women would want to dance with me; How did she get on the 'wrong foot?' How do I execute that figure? It worked 1 hour ago in the group lesson." Tango is more than steps. For myself, if a woman brings passion to the floor, fancy figures become less important as we dance. The more I think, the worse I dance. Concentrate on frame, keeping the body soft so that you can feel the lead, and you will dance magnificently. And remember this always: You can only follow what you are lead. Women can't execute correctly from poor leads. Of course, that doesn't stop them from apologizing for their partner's poor lead. If you're still nervous, practice ochos and molinetes at home to develop your balance. I thought I had good balance, until I practiced ochos at home. Michael


Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:41:19 EST From: Debra Monroe Mugnani <Monroe333 @AOL.COM> Subject: I'd like to change the address I use to receive this email? Can someone tell me how to go about it? Thanks, Debra


Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:21:20 -0800 From: "Brannigan, Mary" <Mary.Brannigan @WWIRELESS.COM> Subject: Think Tango! Was: Re: Now a beginner.. Michael Ditkoff comments: <snip> The best advice is to relax. Tango is a dance of feeling, not thinking. <snip> The more I think, the worse I dance. Concentrate on frame, keeping the body soft so that you can feel the lead, and you will dance magnificently. So, to summarize the above (along with a few other snips taken from the same mailing): Don't think, just concentrate, keep your frame, but also keep your body soft, "feel" the lead, let it happen, be graceful, don't forget to bring passion to the floor!, practice, practice, practice, and oh, don't forget to relax. I'm sorry to use your posting as an example Michael, many other people post the same rhetoric, however your mailing blatantly stated an opinion I vehemently oppose - that tango is not a dance of thinking. My belief is that what makes tango argentino so unique and exciting is the fact that you do THINK! You don't just execute pre-arranged patterns of steps. You adjust your steps based on who you're partnered with, the music playing, the type of floor you're on, and the people around you. This goes for lead and follow. If everyone were to follow the advice to simply let go, stop thinking and be moved by the music, the floor would be strewn with the casualities of those who didn't care to think about the results of where they were stepping/gancho'ing/boleo'ing, or who didn't think to take into consideration the line of dance. Yet in so many postings, I continually read in the implied idea that tango is either a dance of pure emotion or it's not real tango. I think some would like to make us believe that if you're not dancing with closed eyes, in a close embrace and crying in a heap on the floor after a tanda of Pugliese, then you are not a true tanguero/a. This is a thread I'd love to see discussed and debated with reason instead of just thrown out as a fact without proof or argument, and I welcome anybody with an opposing viewpoint to post the reaons they oppose me. Before you start Are tanguero/as emotionally moved by the tango? Does it give them tastes of some the deepest, most heart-wrenching emotions : lust, passion, grief, enlightenment? Of course! There are *many people who are emotionally moved by the tango. The difference between the devotee and the tanguero/a, however, goes beyond the sentiment and invests much of their time, money and brain power in understanding the tango in order to truly appreciate it. They educate themselves on the music, the culture and history of the tango. They work hard on technique and posture, and have analyzed the steps enough to know what you can and can't do when working with 4 legs and 2 bodies. And remember this always: You can only follow what you are lead. Women can't execute correctly from poor leads. Of course, that doesn't stop them from apologizing for their partner's poor lead. I thought I had good balance, until I practiced ochos at home. Michael


Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:29:10 -0800 From: "Brannigan, Mary" <Mary.Brannigan @WWIRELESS.COM> Subject: Re: Think Tango! (Part 2) Apologies to all about the last mailing which was prematurely sent. Although I think anyone who read through got the gist. The only point I'd like to reiterate b.c. it wasn't very clear in the text below, is how much thinking and hard work the tanguero puts into understanding the tango in order to truly appreciate and enjoy it. Overall, I'm basically interested in hearing opinions on whether tango is a dance of thought, emotion or a mixture of both. Thanks, Mary de Seattle


Original Message----- From: Brannigan, Mary Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 12:21 PM Michael Ditkoff comments: <snip> The best advice is to relax. Tango is a dance of feeling, not thinking. <snip> The more I think, the worse I dance. Concentrate on frame, keeping the body soft so that you can feel the lead, and you will dance magnificently. So, to summarize the above (along with a few other snips taken from the same mailing): Don't think, just concentrate, keep your frame, but also keep your body soft, "feel" the lead, let it happen, be graceful, don't forget to bring passion to the floor!, practice, practice, practice, and oh, don't forget to relax. I'm sorry to use your posting as an example Michael, many other people post the same rhetoric, however your mailing blatantly stated an opinion I vehemently oppose - that tango is not a dance of thinking. My belief is that what makes tango argentino so unique and exciting is the fact that you do THINK! You don't just execute pre-arranged patterns of steps. You adjust your steps based on who you're partnered with, the music playing, the type of floor you're on, and the people around you. This goes for lead and follow. If everyone were to follow the advice to simply let go, stop thinking and be moved by the music, the floor would be strewn with the casualities of those who didn't care to think about the results of where they were stepping/gancho'ing/boleo'ing, or who didn't think to take into consideration the line of dance. Yet in so many postings, I continually read in the implied idea that tango is either a dance of pure emotion or it's not real tango. I think some would like to make us believe that if you're not dancing with closed eyes, in a close embrace and crying in a heap on the floor after a tanda of Pugliese, then you are not a true tanguero/a. This is a thread I'd love to see discussed and debated with reason instead of just thrown out as a fact without proof or argument, and I welcome anybody with an opposing viewpoint to post the reaons they oppose me. Before you start Are tanguero/as emotionally moved by the tango? Does it give them tastes of some the deepest, most heart-wrenching emotions : lust, passion, grief, enlightenment? Of course! There are *many people who are emotionally moved by the tango. The difference between the devotee and the tanguero/a, however, goes beyond the sentiment and invests much of their time, money and brain power in understanding the tango in order to truly appreciate it. They educate themselves on the music, the culture and history of the tango. They work hard on technique and posture, and have analyzed the steps enough to know what you can and can't do when working with 4 legs and 2 bodies.


Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:09:31 -0800 From: phyllis victory <victory @MARS.ARK.COM> Subject: tango madness hola mary, i felt inspired to respond to your open question about what do other's think about this. for me, who has been teaching improvisational theater for 10 years, there is a delicious place that exists right in the middle of order and chaos; mindfullness and abandon; form and no form. it has a stillness, where, when all the form i have learned dissolves and what is left in it's place is essence. the relationship between mind and body working together in perfect harmony. i certainly am not there yet; i'm still working deligently (sometimes with so much frustration that i quit almost daily) at the form, but i have had a taste of that delicious nectar and that is what keeps me going. in my humble opinion, i think we need both. ciao, phyllis work like you don't need the money love like you've never been hurt dance like no one is watching


Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:49:31 -0800 From: Annette Bickford <annettebickford @SYMPATICO.CA> Subject: Rethinking Tango (stirring up the pot) I thought it was better said the first time, Mary, though I also think Michael makes important and thoughtful points. It's so easy to separate thinking and feeling -- being too much "in our heads" etc. It seems to me that both are always at work to always varying degrees. I love the feeling of relaxing enough to really "fly" - when I am with someone I can connect to, when my actual steps become more automatic...but even then I am thinking. While I don't get this sense from Michael's letter at all, the point is that women hear far too often that there is no need for them to think. I've had one man go so far as to say that women are simply analogous to violins - some are Strads, others are not. You'd almost think we were back in Beaver Cleaver Land! And is the trick with the broomsticks standing in for a woman any different? Even if it might be usefully employed as a teaching aid in certain contexts, one wonders what kinds of messages it suggests in other contexts. A man who was watching a film clip of a tanguero doing this observed that women would not dream of demonstrating a dance with broomsticks to show how mindless a job leading can be. Somebody else in the audience laughed, wondering if the tanguero was as handy with the broom when it came to housework (sorry, I couldn't resist!!!!) Gender issues aside, I would say that of course thinking and feeling are both always present. A.B.


Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:25:22 +1300 From: Alex White <alex_tangofirulete @XTRA.CO.NZ> Subject: Keys to a good dance ( & practising) Hello gente! Along the line of dancing and practsing. I practise balance exercises throughout each day, (combined with adorno exercises) which helps me greatly with my balance (and to keep it up) - sometimes I feel out of practise if I haven't danced for two whole days. in a nutshell: I think the most important things for any dancer are: 1/ Balance 2/ posture 3/ relax 4/ enjoy!! Firstly you need balance and posture to help move smoothly, it won't work if you've too nervous / tense SO RELAX! (especially beginners) And last but not least - one of the main reasons why we dance = enjoyment. I could easily elaborate on this list of handy helpful bits and pieces but have to go and dance tango in the street / shopping mall .....so hasta la vista. I'm going to CITA-2000 see you there!!! Alex White TANGO FIRULETE alex_tangofirulete @xtra.co.nz Visit me for details: http://come.to/tango_firulete Ph: +(64 4) 567-9406 021 254 3891 Tango classes; Tues. & Sat. @ 22 Webb St, WGTN & Sundays in Lower Hutt New Latin dance night - Mondays from 17 Jan From 7:30pm Tango / Salsa / Merengue Corner Bar and Cafe, Kilbirnie Ask about kids courses :)


Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:27:35 -0600 From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG> Subject: Thinking/Feeling Dichotomy? For me, I do not see dividing tango into a thinking/feeling dichotomy. Both are required to dance it well. I do find, however, that intuition is more important to dancing tango than its opposite which is called "sensing" by psychologists. Given the changing conditions on a social dance floor and the relatively brief time one has to react, I find dancing tango relies heavily on intuitive decision making (involving the unconscious mind), rather than a deliberate sorting through the possible options before making a decision. I look upon learning tango as being a largely thinking process in which the concentration of the conscious mind is used to educate the unconscious mind about how tango is danced. I look upon dancing tango as an improvisational exercise in which the conscious and unconscious minds work together to create a dance from the options one has learned. In this sense, Michael seems to be offering good advice. Relaxing may help open the channels to the unconscious mind and better enable one to dance in a creative flow. --Steve de Tejas (ENFP)


Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:07:57 -0800 From: diane m tober <DTOBER @PRODIGY.NET> Subject: Re: Circulating at Milongas I have a regular tango partner, with whom I also have a relationship. Working out the logistics of how much to circulate at milongas can be difficult. I personally don't like to circulate a lot because I enjoy dancing with my partner. We have worked out a system that seems to work for the most part. We always dance the first couple of sets together, as well as the last four tangos or so. And we ALWAYS save the last tango for each other. Most of the time we seek each other out during the middle of the milongas as well--especially if there are not a lot of other partners with whom we enjoy dancing. Most nights I usually end up dancing with only about four or five men aside from my partner; unless he and I are not dancing well together that night, in which case it may be more. D.


Original Message----- From: Leonardo Tanguero <TangoLeon @AOL.COM> To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>

Date: Monday, January 10, 2000 5:06 AM Subject: Circulating at Milongas >In a message dated 1/5/00 12:54:56 AM, tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET writes: > >> Cherie and Lynn wrote wonderful messages about the manners we should all >> show at a milonga. I have been told that in country dancing in the US, ALL >> the men are expected to dance at least once with each woman, so that no one >> sits alone all evening. If a man forgets, the other men will remind him of >> his obligation. >> What a kind and welcoming habit. I think tango is not like that because so >> often dancers believe they are "above" dancing with beginners or new >> comers - who may actually be accomplished dancers. > >This message and others following have dealt with the issue of men >circulating at milongas to dance with as many women as possible. When I >attend milongas in my own barrio (where attendance is only around 25-35), I >try to dance at least once with every woman, especially beginners, because I >do not want to see any women lose interest in tango because they do not have >opportunities to dance and feel accepted. The philosophy behind this is to >maintain a feeling of a tango community where all are welcome. I believe this >philosophy is necessary for a small tango community to survive. Nevertheless, >at local milongas I try to dance about half of the dances with my wife, my >original and most important tango partner. I believe part of what is missed >in the desire to dance with everyone is that tango argentino is or can be an >emotionally intimate dance where a special passion can only be generated when >dancing with that special partner. Tango argentino has the potential to >generate a passionate connection that is absent in other dances such as >waltz, swing, salsa, or country-and-western dancing. As a reflection of this >greater connection, I dance in close embrace only with my wife [a highly >recommended policy for all tangueros :) ]. From what I have been reading on >this list regarding this subject, it sounds to me that much of the >circulating (and desire for rules regarding circulating) at milongas is >coming from solteros, not married or partnered dancers. I'd like to hear what >tango couples with that intimate passionate connection feel about >circulating. > >Leonardo >El Leon del Tango >TangoLeon @aol.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >REMINDER: Announcements of Tango events or products should be sent to >Tango-A and not to TANGO-L. To subscribe to Tango-A, send the >command "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU. >-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 01:21:31 -0500 From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM> Subject: [Fwd: Re: re Party Manners] X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <387ACBBA.11D5 @erols.com>

Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 01:20:42 -0500 From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @erols.com> Organization: Bain & Company, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: MACFroggy @AOL.COM Subject: Re: re Party Manners References: <d8.d8a429dc.25ab724a @aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "We all love to get offended...", "The Overwhelming Difficulty of Having Milonga", "the act of "pocketing the money", "cute how people read what they want into things", etc. Cherie, dearest! The only person who loves getting offended is you!!! Surprise! First, you go to a milonga and cannot take care of your own socialization (good time); than, ...you complain about it, literally, to the world; Nice people, as we are on this list, make an attempt to help you sort out your difficulties, explain to you what it takes to organize "good time" and remind you that your "good time" depends on you having it. That offends you. What makes you happy after this "lively discussion"? Another chance to express your unhappiness to the world? Sounds like this is the true meaning of your last posting. Please, call before you arrive to the new town, city, country: we, milonga organizers, will try to do all in our power to assure your GOOD TIME. Just let us know what makes your milonga! Eugenia


Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:50:41 -0800 From: Phil Seyer <Phil_Seyer @ILOVEMUSIC.COM> Subject: Re: Thinking/Feeling Dichotomy? I think it does help to divide any activity into a thinking/feeling dichotomy. Some think of this as right/left brain. In playing the piano, I find this extremely helpful and I use the same approach with dancing. The approach is this: always devote a certain amount of time to thinking through each movement very carefully. Then later relax and let the movements flow without thinking consciously. For example, in piano playing as I play each note, I think of its scale-degree. The scale degree varies depending on the key. So, if I am in the key of e-flat the note "C" is a "submediant" or 6th degree. In the key of A-flat, the same tone would be a mediant or the 3rd degree of the scale. I also think very carefully about the "function" of key chord -- whether it is tonic, subdominaint, mediant, etc. Later, after I've put my time in practicing in this thinking way, I like to "cut loose" and just play intuivitvely without thinking so hard about all of this. It's the same way in tango, sometimes I practice very carefully thinking about what I am going to do next. But later (when I am in the zone) I can just dance and let my right brain take over. In dancing in this was I don't know consciously what series of steps I will lead next. At all tims, I'm trying to listen to the music and dance with it. Phil Seyer www.magicseyer.com www.SanFranciscoTango.com www.ilovemusic.com


Original Message ----- From: "Stephen P Brown" <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG> To: <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 2:27 PM Subject: Thinking/Feeling Dichotomy? > For me, I do not see dividing tango into a thinking/feeling dichotomy. > Both are required to dance it well. I do find, however, that > intuition is more important to dancing tango than its opposite which > is called "sensing" by psychologists. Given the changing conditions > on a social dance floor and the relatively brief time one has to > react, I find dancing tango relies heavily on intuitive decision > making (involving the unconscious mind), rather than a deliberate > sorting through the possible options before making a decision. > > I look upon learning tango as being a largely thinking process in > which the concentration of the conscious mind is used to educate the > unconscious mind about how tango is danced. I look upon dancing tango > as an improvisational exercise in which the conscious and unconscious > minds work together to create a dance from the options one has > learned. In this sense, Michael seems to be offering good advice. > Relaxing may help open the channels to the unconscious mind and better > enable one to dance in a creative flow. > > --Steve de Tejas (ENFP) >


Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:37:21 EST From: Leonardo Tanguero <TangoLeon @AOL.COM> Subject: Thinking and Feeling in Argentine Tango I can only speak for the man's (i.e., leading) role in tango argentino and from this experience it is clear a man must be mentally alert, responding to floor conditions in planning the next moves, and in deciding what steps to lead next. Mental alertness and planning are higher when less familiar sequences are led, with a less familiar partner, and when floor conditions are more crowded. However, in dancing tango with my special partner on an empty floor, it is possible sometimes to surrender to the music and allow all those simple walking patterns and uncomplicated ochos and giros that are committed to memory to surface and bypass the calculating mind. In such cases, sharing the passion created by the music results in a unique and powerful emotional experience. I came to tango argentino after 3+ years of ballroom dancing, and although it is true that tango argentino as danced socially is generally more complex than social ballroom dancing and makes more cognitive demands, what separates tango argentino from any other social dance I've experienced is its potential to generate this passion. Without this passion, tango argentino is just another social dance. If one's goal in tango is to lead the most complicated patterns, have the flashiest adornos, or the most pristine technique, this misses the point that the most unique and powerful tango experience is the sharing of this passion between a man and a woman. Thus, the most meaningful tango argentino is probably done in private, not on the milonga dance floor. Leonardo El Leon del Tango TangoLeon @aol.com


End of TANGO-L Digest - 11 Jan 2000 to 12 Jan 2000 (#2000-11) *************************************************************