The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 10 Jan 2000
to 11 Jan 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 03:00:14 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 10 Jan 2000 to 11 Jan 2000 (#2000-10)
There are 27 messages totalling 1408 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Tango's Greatest Tragedies
2. Party manners
3. re Party Manners (2)
4. Party Manners
5. Party manners, and.... a Stranger in a Strange Land.
6. Where to find good exercises
7. Big milongas, small milongas
8. [ATOF] Re: Party Manners [Short]
9. Party Manners And Milonga Demands (2)
10. New Year's Tango performance in Buenos Aires (2)
11. Circulating at Milongas
12. risking a "yes"
13. DJs' concerns and the MP3 option (Re: Party Manners)
14. DJs' concerns and the MP3 option (3)
15. Know before you go (fomerly party manners)
16. Party manners.
17. Risking a "Yes"
18. Buenos Aires Expectations (2)
19. A man traveling alone in Argentina
20. Carlos & Alicia videos
21. Carlos and Alicia Video
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 02:23:09 +0000
From: Keith Elshaw <elshaw @INTERLOG.COM>
Subject: Tango's Greatest Tragedies
Good day one and all around the world;
I don't know why I started thinking about this tonight, but it has
suddenly become two hours later, and I have dashed off a list of 9 what
I call "tragedies" that have hoped to interrupt the Tango flow -
sometimes like the rapids impeding the motivated salmon; sometimes more
seriously like the struggle for life the chronic victim must face;
though there isn't much difference to a strong person/culture.
(I'm using the word tragedy loosely. And ... sensitivity and sardonicism
may co-exist. Even better when with a sense of humor. According to moi.
My list begs the reader to allow that. All words following should be
heard as if spoken by a light-hearted person who doesn't claim to know
everything, please).
After starting this list, I realize it must be longer than I know and
would make interesting reading if a more complete one existed. I would
really like to know about what I don't know about - in this case, events
or ideas that have been influential in the life of Tango. I hope this
stimulates contributions.
Here is one that I offer from my preliminary arbitrary list:
"RCA Records manager (non-Argentinian) purposely sets fire to it's huge
archive of Master recordings from three decades of many musicians,
including Troilo, Di Sarli, et.al (1950). Effects of never again being
able to access the Masters of hundreds of important recordings and
masterpieces will last forever. (Fortunately, the above-named artists
left the label right away and we have their next recordings in fine
shape). A modern day auditory equivalent to one of the three burnings of
the parchments at the great library in Alexandria. All recordings (CD's)
from that era originally issued on RCA are copies of copies of copies of
scratchy records type-thing. Of course, we love the music for all that."
Here's one from further down the list:
"Gifted Argentine Tango show dancers teach and preach their stage-craft
way and forget to replicate fun social dancing ... though that's what
it's all about for the average person (1955 - 95). Substantial negative
effects recently being largely being overcome by wonderful Porte=F1o
dancers or teachers who are making their mark (Naveiro, the Zottos and
their partners; the next tier coming like Hern=E1n Obispo, et. al)."
And one from higher up the list:
"European musicians invent European or International Tango because they
must be hard of hearing and rhythmically challenged so couldn't
replicate what fellow Europeans loved about Argentine Tango (1912
-present). Enter Ballroom Tango and surely some stiff necks/sore backs.
Good for sales of mirrors and dance teachers with questionable depth of
sensual feelings/searching intelligence/conviction and communication
skills with people outside their native culture."
No personal offense intended!
Well, this isn't an appropriate place to print my list, so I built a web
page for these musings. Anyone interested in perusing them may do so by
looking for tragedies at http://www.interlog.com/~elshaw/ttindex.html.
Tango and "tragedy." They've benefited from each other.
But I'm a happy guy - really!
Most of you know why I want to know more.
Well, my very Best to you for the New Year. I hope you get even more
crazy for Tango this year and can spend all your excessive disposable
income in Buenos Aires.
Or ... at a Congress people are working hard to make for you in the
next few months.
Keith Elshaw
ToTANGO!
http://www.interlog.com/~elshaw/ttindex.html
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:35:06 EST
From: No Name Available <Want2Dance @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Party manners
Dear List,
I've been reading the comments about party manners & would like the help
of the list with something we've been thinking about doing. If you have
visited as a single dancer to a strange city & found a welcoming community,
drop me a line. I am considering putting together a single person's guide to
all kinds of partner dancing in different parts of the country (probably
starting in the Northeast, Boston, NYC, PA) & would appreciate any leads to
places to review first. Any recommendations would be appreciated (private
e-mails please).
Thanks,
Barbara
Do You Want2Dance? The Single Dance Partners Network
want2dance @aol.com
http://www.want2dance.bigstep.com
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:19:11 -0800
From: "Renaldo \"Ron\" Leon" <RLeon49r @PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: re Party Manners
Hi Cherie,
Perhaps my interpretation of your concerns at Milongas may have been a little bit
misinterpreted or misunderstood in my previous response to Melinda Bate's
reference to your previous post. Without beating a dead horse, I have come away
from this subject with a great deal more sensitivity toward other (mostly female)
attendees at the Milongas. I plan to be more conscious of spreading myself
around a little more and enjoying the company of *out of towners* (which I
previously have always thoroughly enjoyed) along with meeting many more
"regulars" at our SF Bay Area milongas..
However, regarding your question of "otherwise why are they in the business of
tango?", I cannot understand how very many of "our" Tangueros (especially in the
SF Bay Area) can see our host(s) as "profit making", money pocketing, business
promoters at a Milonga. With the (to me) very LOW cost to attend a Milonga ($5
to $10) for anywhere from 3-5 hours of dancing, socializing, eating, drinking
soda or punch and usually if at all a $1 per alcoholic drink or wine on an honor
system.
I am a self-employed professional business person for the past 26 years and I can
assure you that if I was into the "business" of making a profit or decent
standard of living, it sure would not be in the *Milonga* business for profit.
It appears that many of our Milongas only make a very small percentage of profit,
if any, especially after paying the rent, costs of refresments, food and
alcoholic beverages, etc. I know of a very popular milonga in the SF downtown
area that charges $5 a person and dances from 10pm to 2 am on Saturday nights in
a very nice area of the City. There are always between 45-65 members at their
Milonga and to think that they are making a "profit" (?) :-( of any magnitude
or pocketing all that money ($225 - $330) amazes me.
When I drive home after those Milongas on Saturday night and realize that I have
spent a Sat. night in the beautiful downtown San Francisco, 1 block from Union
Square, with my A. Tango "community", shared many wonderful abrazos with the
beautiful women whom frequent this particular one for a mere $16-$20, "TOTAL
which includes bridge toll and all night parking and maybe 2-3 refreshments, it
is truly amazing. I feel kind of guilty ;-) kind of like "taking candy from a
baby". I personally am very appreciative to all of the host(s), promoter and
organizers of Milongas throughout our A. Tango community for keeping the costs
for such wonderful entertainment so LOW for such an evening of pleasure and
fun. I think we all need to count our blessings that so many of these money
hungry hosts and promoters are doing such a great job in making these places for
us to enjoy without being driven by profit.
I don't know about other areas, except Portland, Or. , Orange County, Ca., SF
bay area, and El Cerrito, Ca. & Lafayette, Ca. along with the Peninsula, of SF
Bay, but I can tell you that these hosts and promoters should be applauded for
all of the work, sacrifice, enjoyment and devotion that they have and still give
to "Our Argentine Tango Community".
Let's all take a moment and *APPLAUD* all of our Tanguero brothers and sisters
whom host, sponsor, coordinate, teach and volunteer to help out. Let's all
appreciate a Good Thing when we see it. The glass IS half full!! :-) :-)
Now let's all get out there an DANCE!!
Thanks for *your* candidness and contribution to our list(s) and to my own
personal perspective on things.
Respectfully,
Renaldo
Cherie Magnus wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'd just like to say to Manuel and others, that I was not referring to any of
> the attendees at the out-of-town milongas in my complaints of inhospitality.
>
> I was simply wishing for hospitality from the host/hostess in introducing me
> to others and perhaps even inviting me to dance once. I know it's possible,
> because it has happened many times, and has made all the difference to me.
>
> I'm just calling for a little more from the promoters than the providing of
> space and refreshment, music, and the pocketing of money--especially with
> out-of-town guests. Sociability, warmth (even if faked), common
> courtesy--otherwise why are they in the business of tango?
>
> Cherie
> Los Angeles
>
> http://www.viveladifference.com
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:23:39 -0800
From: Alberto Paz <tangoman @HOOKED.NET>
Subject: Re: Party Manners
From: Lynn Underwood <monaloca @MSN.COM>
>People are initially attracted to tango by the music and the dance,
but the
>decision to take up tango is, de facto, a decision to join a
community. A
>warm and welcoming community will attract warm and sociable people.
One that
>is cold and unfriendly will become a refuge for social misfits and
takers.
>Some of them may be skillful dancers, but few will be people you care
to be
>around.
>I hope your message is heard and made a theme in the tango community.
If the
>mores you describe continue to be accepted as the norm, we will all
suffer -- >and tango will never be more than an exotic little niche for
the obsessed.
Yes, there are a few "social misfits" diguised as "tango promoters",
some even carry a "performer card" when not "Rosemary's baby."
The old Italians used to say after having dinner at a restaurant:
"If you loved the food and service makey sure to tell everybody,
but if there was something you didn't like, make sure to tell the
owners.
Luckily all the misfits also subscribe to this list and/or the
Argentine Tango Open Forum, so the message is there for them to read.
The question is, will they recognize themselves and get the message?
Happy New Year and best wishes.
Alberto
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:54:54 -0800
From: Steve Hoffman <DrSteveH @IBM.NET>
Subject: Party manners, and.... a Stranger in a Strange Land.
Melinda,
You wrote (about "party manners", and how newcomers are treated): " When we
were in Paris and London last year, almost no one spoke to us. We were
clearly outsiders, and no one made any effort to welcome us. As Lynn said,
they were happy to take our money, but that was the end of it."
Would you like to hear another example of this phenomena? Try being a
man, alone, in Buenos Aires. I have been in that country four different
times, totalling about 2-1/2 months, twice for tango. I have traveled
fairly widely in the country, and speak decent Spanish, and I really enjoy
(in general) meeting and conversing with new people.
In all that time, probably 75% of all speech I have had, with an Argentine,
has been with taxi drivers. Another 15-20% has been with service people,
like waiters and such. Trying to meet or get to know an Argentine citizen,
whether in tango or not, seems to be the most difficult and unlikely event
in the world. They are not bad, mean, or unable - they simply have the
least interest in strangers, the least interest in making contact with
someone new, that I have ever witnessed in all my travels.
(I've been traveling independently for almost 30 years, have been around
the world, lived and worked more than three years overseas; been in 40+
countries, etc.)
Whereas I am sure there must be plenty of other male visitors to Bs.As. who
will profess to having had a much better experience than mine... I must
say that, never, in nearly 30 years of traveling, have I spoken less words
aloud, or been more alone, for a longer time, as in Argentina. I have
literally spent two weeks straight, several different times, with no one to
talk to except the occasional waiter, bus driver, hotel clerk, etc. In
tango, it's worse.
Now, for an American woman traveler, it can be very different, because men
overseas have particular interests in meeting American women, as the entire
planet knows. That is a different story. But, as for a man traveling
alone, there is practically no one in Argentina who has any evident
interest in meeting you, neither man nor woman. No one smiles. No one
says hello. It is a country where people don't look at or acknowledge each
other on the street, on the subway, in caf=E9s, or anywhere. If you ask the=
m
directions, they are very polite; but, to try to "meet" someone .... I
find it nearly impossible. In fact, it has not been possible for me to
"break through" the barriers, in any sense of the word, in Argentina.
I just recently completed a part-professional, mostly-pleasure, 6-week trip
to Cuba, Mexico, Brazil, and ....Argentina. Maybe my planing wasn't
perfect, going to three warm and friendly countries prior to arriving in
Argentina, but after 6 days in Bs.As., I was having a very marginal
experience, again found essentially nil possibility for fun or
conversation, or even any modicum of dancing, hated the feeling of being
isolated by the culture (after 5 weeks of fun and conviviality), and
abruptly cut my trip off, and came home. Overall, my trip was great,
except for the last 6 days. It's not like you are mistreated In
Argentina. You are simply and totally ignored, when you are a single male,
and alone.
In spite of the fact that I really *like* the country, the grandeur of
Bs.As., the incredible beauty of the land, the stupendous unspoiled
wilderness, the culture that is vastly more sophisticated and educated than
the rest of Latin America.... I won't go back there again, unless my terms
and circumstances are totally different, and I can develop some guaranteed
way of meeting, or working with, or talking to, people (for example: a job
or an academic activity. (Tango would NOT be one of these ways, as a solo
foreign man in tango is NADA as far receiving good vibes or friendliness,
or having much opportunity to dance, in my experience).
Maybe this one person's experience can shed a little light on why you find
some of the social qualities in the tango community of the USA (or London
and Paris) to be less than ideal. The USA, Argentina, and Northern Europe
are not much different in terms of how newcomers are treated, as compared
to the "Latin", or more tropical, or friendly countries, whether these be
in the Americas or elsewhere.
Steve Hoffman
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 01:32:09 -0500
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Where to find good exercises
Dear Daniel,
If you and your partner are beginners at dancing Argentine tango, you
should try to move to the music together, feel the rhythm, do simple
walking, rocking, and basic/ box or cross step. Forget the fancy
ganchos, secadas, etc.! Until you learn how to move together, in unison,
to the music, your fancy-tango-I-can-tango steps will look ridiculous!
But...the most important thing for you to remember is that blaming your
partner NEVER makes you look good. Especially if you dance tango!
Tanguero is only as good as his woman looks on the dance floor!
Keep practicing and take responsibility for yourself and your partner,
you'll develop trust in yourself and your partner's trust in you will
follow.
Best wishes,
Eugenia
Daniel Machado wrote:
>
> Hola Tangueros
>
> My partner and myself are beginers on Tango dancing. I would like to know where
> can I find good exercises, to practice on an emplty living room or ball room
> (with the partner of course), in order to improve our skills, walking, sacadas,
> ganchos and, mainly, to improve our comunication. She sometimes don't feel my
> indications (or it's me giving it the wrong way) and is often warried with the
> others and the walls looking arround and not concentrating. Besides the
> experience are there any exercises in order to improve the "trust"?
> Could anyone send me this infos? Internet sites, word documents, whatever else?
>
> Many thanks
>
> Daniel
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 12:33:01 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Big milongas, small milongas
America Mauhar wrote:
>>Perhaps the big tango communities like New York or San Francisco feel
secure enough in the size of their milongas to not care if new faces
return.>>
One shouldn't be too quick to generalize about "big city milongas". I assist
and sometimes run milongas here in NYC and it is not at all about being too
big or not caring about new faces. For one thing, a milonga with 150 to 200
people is not a casual affair. Nor is it cheap to rent a space here. If
nobody comes one can lose a lot of money. A host can have their hands full
just trying to manage everything during the milonga. Even so we often mention
that there are visitors and welcome them, usually at some point when we make
announcements. But we see new faces every week and some of them are locals.
It helps if a visitor lets us know when they come in that they are visiting
from out of town. We are always glad to see new faces.
Re the size of the dance versus hospitality, my experience has been the
opposite. I went to several small "living room milongas" a few months ago
when I was out of town and nobody anounced that there was a visitor even
though at one point announcements were made about classes, events etc.
Everyone was very helpful beforehand about information, directions so it was
surprising because they knew well in advance I would be there.
Large or small milonga, it is courteous to publicly welcome visitors.
Besides, you never know who you might be snubbing :-) With the internet, fame
or infamy can spread around the world in the blink of an eye.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:30:27 -0800
From: "Renaldo \"Ron\" Leon" <RLeon49r @PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: [ATOF] Re: Party Manners [Short]
Ruddy,
You words and points were GREAT! And educational too!
I look forward to visiting your very successful Milonga this evening and hearing
once again that great music that the DJ ;-) always plays for me and the
"community". Don't forget "Celos" and "Azebache" while you are at it. ;-)
Thanks for being one of the very best "Hosts" in the Tango Bay (SF)!
An appreciative milonguero :-) :-) :-)
Renaldo
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:53:33 -0800
From: Judith Farkas <judith @PARACEL.COM>
Subject: Party Manners And Milonga Demands
Hello Cherie,
I just wanted to respond to your suggestion regarding party manners. You
are quite correct that we should in an ideal world, all take the time to
introduce ourselves to newcomers. I think though, that you should put
yourself in the position of milonga hosts and hostesses. I do have to say
that as a milongas hostess that I am so overwhelmed by the many & various
demands that one must address in organizing and holding a weekly Friday
milonga that I would add a caveat to your suggestion. Since there are so
many attendees and only one or two hosts per milonga, it would be probably
much simpler for guests to introduce themselves to each other.
Allow me to illustrate just a small part of the demands of holding a
regular milonga. As you know, Ruddy and I hold a Friday night milonga and
here our schedule. Shopping for the food and drinks occurs on Thursday
night. Some initial food preparation is also done at that point. Friday
AM, the cars are packed with sound equipment, decorations and
food. Perishables are unpacked at work and schlepped into work for
storage in work refrigerators. At 4 PM, I shower and change into sweats
at home. At 5 PM I leave for the milonga site from home and Ruddy leaves
from work to arrive before 6 PM to unpack the cars and begin setting up the
tables, chairs, sound system, decorations, finish all food preparations,
change into dress attire and then begin greeting guests for the beginning
and intermediate classes which occur from 7 - 9 PM. Then around 9 PM, the
milonga begins and we actually put the food and drinks out on the
tables. By around 9:30 PM, I can sit down, have a drink, chat with my
friends and perhaps enjoy a dance or two myself. Then somewhere between
10:30 and 11 PM, we have announcements, serve birthday cake and have the
birthday dance for those who have birthdays, etc. From 11 PM to 1 AM,
when the milonga ends, I am beginning to fade as you might imagine. I get
up at 5 AM, so I am justifiably quite tired. Breakdown, clean - up and
packing the cars begins at 1 PM or so and goes until about 2:30 AM. By
the time we drive home, it is 3:30 AM. Unpacking the cars takes about
half an hour, so now it is 4 AM. Geese,...I have been up for about 24
hours now! I am certain that all these details have never occurred to
you, though.
If you ran a milonga, then you would know all of this.
So,...I guess that my point in sharing the information listed above, is
this. I will always do my best to introduce people as time and personal
energy allow, but people need to take some small bit of initiative
themselves! The hosts and hostesses of milongas have a lot on their
plates. They do their utmost to make everyone comfortable by providing a
nice location, food, drink, sound system and music as well as all the
schlepping and covering all expenses incurred to provide a milonga for the
tango community at a very reasonable price, but one really needs to make
some personal effort whether you are a newcomer or a regular
attendee. Introduce yourself if the host and/or hostess are busy! Is
that really such an onerous task. You do so in every other walk of life,
do you not? Another suggestion is to ask another regular attendee to
introduce you to a few people. Frankly, if you feel that this is an
important issue, perhaps you should offer your services to your local
milongas and take on the volunteer duty of being responsible for
introducing all newcomers and dreaming up and conducting mixer games,
etc. ( I personally, hate such mixer games, but your local community will
definitely share their feelings on this subject with you! ) I mean this
in the most constructive fashion, but perhaps you should consider
contributing your time, effort and money to the Tango community and stop
complaining about those who are already doing so much.
To put this into a different perspective though, consider this. Do you
expect at a Salsa club to be introduced to other guests by the owner of the
club. Do you expect to be greeted personally by the owner of any dance or
dinner club, much less introduced to other patrons? No, you do not. We
provide the milonga as a labor of love. We do not make a profit. When
we hear little complaints like this, particularly from those who do not
hold milongas themselves, it makes us wonder why we do so at all.
Regards,
Judith
Judith Farkas
Senior Account Manager
Paracel
3833 North First Street
San Jose, CA 95134
510.583.6175 Phone
judith @paracel.com
www.paracel.com
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:12:06 +1000
From: Gebauer Carolina <Carolina.Gebauer @DNR.QLD.GOV.AU>
Subject: New Year's Tango performance in Buenos Aires
Dear All,
Although I watched some of the Millennium special which showed the New
Year's Eve celebrations around the world, I somehow missed the Tango =
which
was danced as part of the celebrations in Buenos Aires. =20
Did anybody see the performance? If so, do you know the identity of =
the
famous couple? =20
One last question did anybody manage to video the performance? I would =
love
to see it.
Feliz A=F1o Nuevo y saludos de una tanguera en Australia
Carolina
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 22:15:54 EST
From: Leonardo Tanguero <TangoLeon @AOL.COM>
Subject: Circulating at Milongas
In a message dated 1/5/00 12:54:56 AM, tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET writes:
> Cherie and Lynn wrote wonderful messages about the manners we should all
> show at a milonga. I have been told that in country dancing in the US, ALL
> the men are expected to dance at least once with each woman, so that no one
> sits alone all evening. If a man forgets, the other men will remind him of
> his obligation.
> What a kind and welcoming habit. I think tango is not like that because so
> often dancers believe they are "above" dancing with beginners or new
> comers - who may actually be accomplished dancers.
This message and others following have dealt with the issue of men
circulating at milongas to dance with as many women as possible. When I
attend milongas in my own barrio (where attendance is only around 25-35), I
try to dance at least once with every woman, especially beginners, because I
do not want to see any women lose interest in tango because they do not have
opportunities to dance and feel accepted. The philosophy behind this is to
maintain a feeling of a tango community where all are welcome. I believe this
philosophy is necessary for a small tango community to survive. Nevertheless,
at local milongas I try to dance about half of the dances with my wife, my
original and most important tango partner. I believe part of what is missed
in the desire to dance with everyone is that tango argentino is or can be an
emotionally intimate dance where a special passion can only be generated when
dancing with that special partner. Tango argentino has the potential to
generate a passionate connection that is absent in other dances such as
waltz, swing, salsa, or country-and-western dancing. As a reflection of this
greater connection, I dance in close embrace only with my wife [a highly
recommended policy for all tangueros :) ]. From what I have been reading on
this list regarding this subject, it sounds to me that much of the
circulating (and desire for rules regarding circulating) at milongas is
coming from solteros, not married or partnered dancers. I'd like to hear what
tango couples with that intimate passionate connection feel about
circulating.
Leonardo
El Leon del Tango
TangoLeon @aol.com
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 16:28:41 -0800
From: Annette Bickford <annettebickford @SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: risking a "yes"
Re: taking a risk and asking people to dance
While I generally agree with Naomi, I recently had a mortifying experience
with a "yes".
While visiting a milonga in another city. I asked a teacher for a dance
after having watched a number of other women do the same. He agreed, but it
quickly became evident to me that it was a mistake.
In my experience, advanced leaders are usually quite easy to follow; but his
manner was terse and his lead distracted, erratic and virtually impossible
to read. It seems to me that if one (leader or follower) chooses to accept a
dance they would do well to maintain a sense of dignity and respect.
A.B.
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:39:06 +0100
From: Peter Niebert <Peter.Niebert @IMAG.FR>
Subject: DJs' concerns and the MP3 option (Re: Party Manners)
One of several remarks on the heavy work of DJing:
Ruddy Zelaya writes:
> [...] In order to provide you with one hour of good music a
> good DJ will spend 4 hours at home listening to/arranging the
> songs. [...]
While certain activities of DJs take an unavoidable amount of time,
life could become easier today with MP3-files and DJ-ing software.
(See www.mp3.com for links to such programs).
In Grenoble, we currently discuss if we could profit from such a
system, running on a laptop.
What is it anyhow? I have taken a look at a very nice shareware
program called MusicMatch (licensing fee for full version US$30,
available for Windows and Macintosh), which provides the following
functionality:
* automatic extraction of recordings from CDs and compression (with
customizable reduction rates, but a factor of 10 is realistic)
* automatic downloading of Artist/Album/titles information from CDDB,
an online database currently containing this information for 500.000 CDs
which has been uploaded by users.
* music libraries, essentially databases adapted well to the needs of
DJs with the
* artist/title information
* a link to the MP3-file on the hard-disk (or CD-ROM)
* the possibility of tagging entries, e.g.
rhythm (Tango,Vals,Milonga,...)
style (pugliese-style, d'arienzo style, ...)
several "dimensions" of aspects, you can define all that!
* CD-cover image
* hyperlinks
Of course: searching possibilities
* playlists, i.e. lists of entries in a library, which can be
played in the given order.
All in all I found the design of the program very thoughtful.
Now, how can a DJ profit from such a system:
- you have to enter all of this information into the
database. Converting a complete CD to MP3 is not critical,
may take some 10 minutes.
What takes time is the tagging of the pieces. But then, it is less
strenuous than what you would do if you make it by hand, because
to find out what kind of piece it is, you just mouse-click and listen.
- once all this data is on the harddrive, it is MUCH easier
to make compilations, i.e. playlists. Of course, ALL depends
on the quality of the tagging of the entries.
- you play the music via the sound card of the portable computer,
or you can write a compilation on the base of a playlist to a
writable music CD.
Playlists you can then either already create at home, or you can do it
on the fly, even while music is playing.
Also, this feature is very nice to separate the music into Tandas,
with intermezzos in between. You just once prepare your collection of
intermezzos using a sound editing program and you drag them in your
playlist with the mouse.
You can do an additional service to the listeners and the CD-vendors
if you scan the disc covers: They can be displayed on the screen,
while the piece is playing.
Fine you say, but how much music can you put on a hard-disk. Assuming
a compression factor of 10, you can consequently fit the contents of
10 CDs on one CD-ROM. If you have an 8 GB hard-disc, you can thus
store the contents of 100 CDs or several thousands of pieces in a
single data base. If that is not sufficient for you (there are people
out there with ~1000 CDs), you might need to invest more, say into one
or several 30GB SCSI drives. Still, much easier to transport than all
of your CDs.
This leads me to the technical question I have not yet resolved:
is it possible to attach external ATAPI discs to laptops? For instance
via the parallel port? Because, we have not yet decided on the
equipment we want to buy and it should be as cheap as possible. Of
course, we will also use the same laptop for standard
administrative work on place.
In other words, it is completely, even financially REALISTIC to do
what I propose. A used laptop is not that much more expensive than -
say - a new MiniDisc player/recorder, as is used by some DJs. You
do not need a teriffic laptop either, some kind of Pentium 100+
processor and a sound card should suffice. The only problem is the
need for the huge hard disc.
BTW, maybe somebody is fearing legal issues. Of course, I do not
know. We intend to act as this: We make absolutely sure that only
discs in the possession of the association will end up in the
database, and of course we pay the royalties for the right to play
music in our events. Period.
Maybe this is too naive? I seem to remember a discussion on the list
which questioned the legality of making compilations for DJing. I
hope we will not get into trouble, because I still believe in human
reason: It is clear that a DJ *must* make compilations, be they on
Tape, writable CDs or on a hard disc. And I do not know a single place
where no compilations were used. It is not for stealing music, it is
for automating and simplifying the DJs work.
***
So much for the technology, but now to the SERIOUS QUESTION:
You DJs of Tango out there, do you already use a system of
classification (calm, funny, dramatic, hall emptier, ...????), do you
rely solely on the intuitive database in your head? How do you do it?
The crucial point is that you can only profit from such a program, if
you actually FORMALIZE your perception of music, so that you can find
selections of pieces that go together well. Some people will not like
this idea, but from my own experience I am rather sure that it is the
only way for a normal human being to handle thousands of recordings to
play really interesting music - which at the moment we do NOT in
Grenoble. Too much repetition, too often the same sequences of pieces
in the same order ....
Best wishes,
Peter
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:26:46 -0000
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: New Year's Tango performance in Buenos Aires
I saw that performance (or parts of it) and was totally *unimpressed* by it.
It was not tango but some sort of ballet type interpretation. I don't know
the names of the dancers and I did not record the performance either but I
don't think anybody looking for a Tango performance missed anything by not
seeing that particular performance.
Manuel
Original Message -----
From: Gebauer Carolina <Carolina.Gebauer @DNR.QLD.GOV.AU>
Dear All,
Although I watched some of the Millennium special which showed the New
Year's Eve celebrations around the world, I somehow missed the Tango which
was danced as part of the celebrations in Buenos Aires.
Did anybody see the performance? If so, do you know the identity of the
famous couple?
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:22:00 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: DJs' concerns and the MP3 option
Peter wrote:
>One of several remarks on the heavy work of DJing:
>Ruddy Zelaya writes:
>> [...] In order to provide you with one hour of good music a
>> good DJ will spend 4 hours at home listening to/arranging
>> the songs. [...]
>While certain activities of DJs take an unavoidable amount of time,
>life could become easier today with MP3-files and DJ-ing software.
>(See www.mp3.com for links to such programs).
The use of compressed files and a computer sound card results in a
degradation in sound quality--which is perceptible particularly if
the associated equipment is of high quality.
An alternative that would yield higher sound quality would be to use
a pair of computer-controlled multi-disc CD players. If one
desired, one could still rely heavily on pre-arranged tandas on
home-compiled CDs.
>You DJs of Tango out there, do you already use a system of
>classification (calm, funny, dramatic, hall emptier, ...????), do
>you rely solely on the intuitive database in your head? How do you
>do it?
When I DJ, which is infrequently, I show up with about 50 tandas
pre-recorded from my own collection of CDs. I play only these
tandas, but I select which tanda to play based upon what I perceive
as the mood of the dancers and my own knowledge of the music.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 12:03:00 -0500
From: Michael Ditkoff <Michael.B.Ditkoff @USDOJ.GOV>
Subject: Know before you go (fomerly party manners)
I've read a lot of postings about milongas and manners about going to
milongas in new cities. I suggest that visiting dancers check the
internet to see if there is a listing for the community they are going
to visit and make contact through email.
Last March, I spent two wonderful weeks on business in the clean,
beautiful city of Denver. A week before I left, I checked the internet
by arbitrarily typing "Tango in Colorado" in the "Search" box.
Incredibly, I lucked out in typing the exact name of the web page. I
found the location of milongas and contact names. I sent messages and
responses told me who to ask for on my arrival. I followed the
instructions and had an absolutely wonderful time. (Note: Denver has
a very strong, friendly vibrant community and well worth a visit.)
I was introduced to a few women and we danced. Then, I was on my own.
Even my New York accent didn't stop women from dancing with me.
Nothing in life is black and white. If hosts and hostesses had time to
greet everybody at the door, they would. I agree they probably can't
enjoy their own milongas because of peripheral concerns that nobody
else pays attention.
The bottom line is that each dancer has to take responsibility to
ensure (s)he has a good time.
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 12:35:06 EST
From: Cherie Magnus <MACFroggy @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: re Party Manners
Dear Renaldo and List,
My compliments to everyone for participating in a very lively discussion
regarding being polite and having manners at milongas. Let's bring up some
more topics that people feel strongly about!
I'd just like to remind people that nowhere in any of my posts did I use the
word "profit." (Renaldo, you've got "profit making" in quotes from
somewhere). Heck, I think it'd be great if folks could make a profit from
tango. Why not?
But I realize now that my words, "pocketing the money," were taken to mean
accusations of promoters profiting, when all I meant was the physical act of
taking the money at the door, and the not-very-social unconcern whether I had
a good time.
I have never read so much on the topic of *The Overwhelming Difficulty of
Having Milongas.* It's really cute how people read what they want into things
and how we all love to get offended!
Well I for one have really enjoyed this conversation!
Thanks all! See you in the milongas of the world!
Cherie
"One size does NOT fit all!"
http://www.viveladifference.com
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:06:32 EST
From: Jeanne Hill <GeneJeanne @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Party Manners And Milonga Demands
Once again I must agree with Judith's comments in her post of 1/10/00. Not
only do the host and hostess not make an even reasonable profit (sometimes
they may not even cover the costs) if you consider the 24 hours they put in
of their personal time, they have actually worked themselves into the red. I
would like to suggest to all those who prefer to criticize that they would be
wise to support and graciously acknowledge the efforts of the hosts,
hostesses, and milonga organizers before these persons decide to get out "of
the business." Pitch in and volunteer to make the experience a better one
for all.
Jeanne
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:17:17 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Party manners.
Greetings,
A lot of good issues came up during this latest episode dealing with
etiquette, manners, courtesy, having a good time etc. But there is still that
one small gesture I would like to propose that can say a lot and it can be
done by people running a small or large milonga, busy or not. It may help
avoid some of the other issues. I'm sure many do this already but if not,
think about it.
When evening announcements are made, which seems to happen at all milongas,
whether the "living-room, house party" type or the large dance hall type, it
is a nice gesture to mention that there are out of town guests. In a small
environment it may seem unnecessary but in a large one it is important.
(Think about it! Your are in NYC [or L.A. or San Fran.] , just visiting from
Lawrence, Kansas, and are listening to live tango music, watching about 200
people dressed up and dancing tango. The host makes a few announcements and
says, "By the way, tonight we have some tangueros visiting from Kansas". And
even though most people in NY don't know where Kansas is it would still
probably give you a very warm memory :-)) It usually will break the ice and
prompt regulars to dance or to at least make the visitor feel comfortable
enough to ask on their own. I am not only speaking from personal feelings but
I have been told this by others.
It is not the responsibility of the host to personally attend to visitors,
depending on the size of the affair, but it only takes a minute or two to
announce visitors. (But also if you are a visitor, mention it to the host or
door person. We welcome new people but we don't always know they are
out-of-towners).
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:13:00 -0500
From: Michael Ditkoff <Michael.B.Ditkoff @USDOJ.GOV>
Subject: Risking a "Yes"
Annette Bickford wrote of an interesting experience of asking a
teacher for a dance and having a horrible time because his lead was
difficult to decipher.
Without knowing any more information beyond the message, there are
teachers who deliberately dance poorly and afterwards turn on the
student and say "If you take lessons with me, I will have you dance
like an Argentine."
I remember one experience vividly. I asked a stranger to dance. It was
like walking in cement. I couldn't move her, even if I had a
bulldozer. She proceeded to give me a 15 minute lesson and then topped
it off by telling me I should take lessons with her.
Clearly, things are seldom what they seem.
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:32:30 EST
From: Mitchell Levitan <WEDRIVEN @AOL.COM>
Subject: Buenos Aires Expectations
The plan was to sleep all day and dance all night. My expectations were to
find a place where we could dance to live music several nights a week in a
club where men and women dressed up for tango. These expectations were based
in part on my experience in New York where several of the milongas feature
live music along with recorded music on a regular basis. Reason suggested
that if New York, with it's dozen or so salons, could feature trios and
quartets Buenos Aires, birthplace of the tango, with its several dozen venues
might provide perhaps a quintet or a sextet for both our listening and
dancing pleasure. The other image that kindled the fire of my expectations
was the scene in Saura's "Tango" where the director and choreographer go to
the club where they discover their soon-to-be-featured dancer.
If any of my fellow listeros share this notion in any way disabuse yourselves
of it forthwith. While its true you can dance every night away into the
madrugada (and we certainly did), you will be hard pressed to find any club
or salon featuring live music for dancing, not even a bandoneon and a guitar.
From our investigations it appears that Saura's club was a mere fiction
invented to further the plot.
Some milongueros say that the people like only to dance to the great
orchestras of the golden age and disdain the music of small groups. Some say
that it's the economic conditions that discourage the organizers from
engaging live musicians. We were told that good musicians can't make a living
in Buenos Aires and that to play they go abroad. I believe it's for all
these reasons, yet some of the milongas had upwards of 400 people attending,
eating and drinking and paying at the door. Many of places we went had
bandstands big enough to accommodate a small combo and one or two even had
pianos. Don't most musicians have day jobs and don't their motivations derive
from other considerations than just making a living?
The above expresses the only sour grape in my bunch and that grape wasn't all
that sour. In the end we had danced our nights away to the music of the great
orchestras of the "golden age". We had a chance to take instruction from
superb teachers; we had sharpened our skills especially the one that has to
do with navigating around an extremely crowded dance floor.
The food and wine were excellent and inexpensive if not too varied, the city
was beautiful and clean (though they could really use a" pooper-scooper"
law), transportation was superb, the people friendly and helpful and then
there was the tomb of Gardel.
We just lucked out by going there on Sunday and were greeted with the most
singular experience of our two weeks in the city. As I understand it every
Sunday afternoon between the hours of 2 and 5 several members of the Gardel
Society gather to pay homage at the tomb of Carlos Gardel. Tapes of his music
are played on portable players or someone might drive up in a car, roll down
the windows and play a CD. Flowers are laid. We were encouraged to have our
pictures taken standing next to the life-sized bronze of Gardel that stands
atop the crypt. The custom is to place a lit cigarette between the fingers of
the statue.
I could go on about the city and the people, but that's not tango. The point
of this e-mail is that for anyone planning their first trip to Buenos Aires
if you don't expect to dance to live music you wont be disappointed.
Mitchell
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 13:57:48 -0700
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz @MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Re: Buenos Aires Expectations
Mitchell,
For live music in Buenos Aires, try Torquato Tasso
on Friday nights. Back in April, they were having
different bands play for our dancing pleasure.
There is also a bookstore which features live tango
music. Anyone recall its name and address?
And, Salgan played once weekly at Club del Vino
(did I get that name right?). After three sets
by other musicians, all very good to excellent
including Nestor Marconi, when Salgan struck the
first keys, I knew I was hearing a genius.
As for a "pooper-scooper law", it was interesting
after leaving Torquato Tasso about the time the
subways started up, to see people walking their dogs
in a small park nearby which was clearly marked
"no dogs". And the dogs were clearly doing their
thing, without the owners collecting the deposits.
People are people, no matter where, and 5am seems
like a good time for the dogs.
Back to the music, it was not a disappointment to me
to dance to recorded music. I learned a lot from a couple
DJs, and the experience improved my own DJ-ing here.
They were very helpful, as were other Argentines,
answering my many questions about the music they had
selected.
Dave
(from Denver)
> From owner-tango-l @MITVMA.MIT.EDU Mon Jan 10 13:35 MST 2000
> X-Comment: mitvma.mit.edu: Mail was sent by imo-d06.mx.aol.com
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:32:30 EST
> From: Mitchell Levitan <WEDRIVEN @AOL.COM>
> Subject: Buenos Aires Expectations
> To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>
> The plan was to sleep all day and dance all night. My expectations were to
> find a place where we could dance to live music several nights a week
<snip>
> If any of my fellow listeros share this notion in any way disabuse yourselves
> of it forthwith. While its true you can dance every night away into the
> madrugada (and we certainly did), you will be hard pressed to find any club
> or salon featuring live music for dancing, not even a bandoneon and a guitar.
> From our investigations it appears that Saura's club was a mere fiction
> invented to further the plot.
<snip>
> the city
> was beautiful and clean (though they could really use a" pooper-scooper"
> law),
<snip>
> I could go on about the city and the people, but that's not tango. The point
> of this e-mail is that for anyone planning their first trip to Buenos Aires
> if you don't expect to dance to live music you wont be disappointed.
>
>
> Mitchell
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:28:49 -0500
From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET>
Subject: A man traveling alone in Argentina
STEVE HOFFMAN wrote:
>But, as for a man traveling
>alone, there is practically no one in Argentina who has any evident
>interest in meeting you, neither man nor woman. No one smiles. No one
>says hello. It is a country where people don't look at or acknowledge e=
ach
>other on the street, on the subway, in caf=E9s, or anywhere. If you ask=
them
>directions, they are very polite; but, to try to "meet" someone .... I
>find it nearly impossible. In fact, it has not been possible for me to
>"break through" the barriers, in any sense of the word, in Argentina.
> They are not bad, mean, or unable - they simply have the
>least interest in strangers, the least interest in making contact with
>someone new, that I have ever witnessed in all my travels.
>The USA, Argentina, and Northern Europe
>are not much different in terms of how newcomers are treated, as compare=
d
>to the "Latin", or more tropical, or friendly countries, whether these b=
e
>in the Americas or elsewhere.
I remember that some time ago the same person wrote about the Argentinean
food as being the worse he had found in the world;
also he thought that Argentinean tango instructors were only motivated bu=
y
greed and contempt for the students.
It is interesting that he is the only one in the whole world that has suc=
h
experiences. Because most other people, from the USA, Europe, Australia,
New Zeeland, Japan, etc. seem to be having a great time and cannot wait t=
o
go back. Last year I met some from California that celebrated their 15th.
tango trip to BS.AS.
It is obvious, Steve that many Argentinean things do not meet your
expectations. I wonder if the "cultural barrier" is in your own brain.
My impression after having lived in Argentina, the USA and Europe:
For Argentineans the most important things are, in order of importance,
family, friends, work. An intense interest in the other human beings is
always present. People go out to look at other passers by, as soon as you
seat in a bench at the park
somebody comes and tells you the story of his/her life. They continuously
look at each other. The art of conversation is exerted every where and at
any occasion. It does not take long after you meet somebody that you will=
be
invited to a barbeque, a coffee, or to go to the soccer games.
The most extraordinary event I remember: I was traveling in the Argentine=
an
North-west; it was very hot and dry. I stopped at a gas station. While th=
e
attendant was pumping gas, I casually mentioned how much I would have lik=
ed
to take a bath in some of the rivers I was crossing; but unfortunately at
this time of the year they were all dry. He suggested that his house nex=
t
door was available for me to take a shower if I wished. Charles Darwin
traveling though Argentina in 1833 was impressed by the hospitality and
generosity of the people. Although things are changing with the global
economy, certain characteristics remain the same.
Yes, it is true, in the big cities, worse in Buenos Aires, people do not
smile or greet strangers.
Argentinean women, in general are not interested in meeting tourists. The=
y
are like the tango, they go for the "feeling", more than for casual sex.
Unless they are "GATOS", cats, ladies of the night. (High percentage of
GATOS are foreigners).
The last thought, in Argentina, you have to deserve friendship on your ow=
n
merits, as an interesting human entity. Friendship in those latitudes is
given for free, there in no economical interest attached as it happens in
other places.
Gauchos give you friendship and do things for you without expecting anyth=
ing
in return. It is so true, that in Argentina when you want somebody to do
something for you without any compensation you simply say " please Steve =
do
me the GAUCHADA" of trying to go beyond your stereotypes.
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:27:59 +0100
From: Jochen Herdel <j.herdel @T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: DJs' concerns and the MP3 option
Dear Peter,
> This leads me to the technical question I have not yet resolved:
> is it possible to attach external ATAPI discs to laptops? For instance
> via the parallel port? Because, we have not yet decided on the
> equipment we want to buy and it should be as cheap as possible. Of
> course, we will also use the same laptop for standard
> administrative work on place.
I would not bother with the laptop option. IMHO the laptop solution
would be far too expensive with probably poor music quality (depending
very much on the quality of the built-in soundcard). There are already
players on the market that have the quality of a good hifi component
(e.g. cd player, amplifier), can play CDs with normal audio files as
well as CDs with mp3 files AND have the option to build in a normal
(cheap!) harddisk with, let's say, 20 GB or more. These players of
course can handle playlists.
The best one I've seen beeing advertised so far is the "Terratec
M3Po":
http://www.terratec.de
It can be bought (in Germany & other european countries) f.ex. at
Vobis superstores.
Hope this helps?
Jochen
--
e-mail: mailto:j.herdel @gmx.de
im WWW: http://home.t-online.de/home/j.herdel
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:21:28 -0500
From: Ira Goldstein <eyegee @LIGHTLINK.COM>
Subject: Carlos & Alicia videos
Hi, folks--
Anyone have a source for the videos recently released featuring Carlos &
Alicia?
Thanks in advance for any info,
--Ira
Ithaca, NY
Great Dancing:
<<...the Highest Intelligence in the Freest Body.>>
(Isadora Duncan)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:03:53 EST
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Carlos and Alicia Video
Tell them Timmy sent you <A HREF="http://www.junglefilms.com/T_TangoFS.htm">Ca
rlos and Alicia</A>
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:04:11 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: DJs' concerns and the MP3 option
>Steve responded to Peter:
>
>The use of compressed files and a computer sound card results in a
>degradation in sound quality--which is perceptible particularly if
>the associated equipment is of high quality.
>
>An alternative that would yield higher sound quality would be to use
>a pair of computer-controlled multi-disc CD players. If one
>desired, one could still rely heavily on pre-arranged tandas on
>home-compiled CDs.
>
> >You DJs of Tango out there, do you already use a system of
> >classification (calm, funny, dramatic, hall emptier, ...????), do
> >you rely solely on the intuitive database in your head? How do you
> >do it?
>
>When I DJ, which is infrequently, I show up with about 50 tandas
>pre-recorded from my own collection of CDs. I play only these
>tandas, but I select which tanda to play based upon what I perceive
>as the mood of the dancers and my own knowledge of the music.
>
>--Steve de Tejas
Some recording systems are really, REALLY awful. They cut off the end
of the song as the sustain dies into silence or if there is a pause
before the final chord of a Tanturi piano. I know of DJs whose entire
collection has been compressed into un-listenable on mini
disks....whummp, whummp, and then just when you are ready for the
final pose, the song stops without getting there.
Attention to quality is very important, especially since so many
important tango music is poorly recorded to begin with:
Computers can work, but the demands of audio require the hard to
NEVER pause even momentarily. Some not-so-old computers don't use
"audio-qualified" hard drives. In particular laptops have power
conservation programs that try to "rest" the mechanical parts
whenever possible. So you have to investigate this.
Steve refers to the artistic sensibility of the DJ.
It really is impossible to pre-record a quality milonga ahead of
time. The mood changes. Your mood changes. Your mood was wrong when
you set it up. You realize that energy has flagged so you have to
shift to salsa for one song, before hitting the Pugliese you intended.
I have never seen a pre-recorded milonga that worked. Practice can be
fine, but not a pre-recorded milonga.
But Steve offers a good alternative with pre-recorded sets. You need
two CD players, so you can play the curtain music from some other CD
while you pop in and program the next set.
You can install a CD-ROM burner and a decent music editing program
like Toast on your desktop. Going through your collection you can
mark the good, the great and the interesting for each orchestra, and
construct a CD of, for example, "Rhythmic Biagi Tangos" or "Romantic
Fresedo/Ray" or "Merry-go-round DeAngelis Waltzes". It doesn't matter
if you have 3 songs or 15, as the CD blanks are very cheap. Then you
can program the CD player to play cuts 1, 4 & 5 for Tanda 1. With a
little practice you can easily do the CD memory function in the 10
seconds of a curtain.
These systems can also help you with that dreaded sound level problem.
(Oh another complaint: curtains that go on and on. You want to give
people a break, not destroy the energy of the evening.)
But the final point is that no amount of technology can help a DJ who
doesn't hear the music and feel the social energy of the room.
I'm sure you have been there.
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
Chautauqua Publishing / Ragtime Interiors
"On-Line Arts & Crafts Movement Resource Directory."
(303) 388 - 2560
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime/
http://www.tango.org/dance/
End of TANGO-L Digest - 10 Jan 2000 to 11 Jan 2000 (#2000-10)
*************************************************************