The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 7 Jan 2000
to 8 Jan 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 03:00:06 -0500
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 7 Jan 2000 to 8 Jan 2000 (#2000-7)
There are 9 messages totalling 539 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. manners
2. Big Fat Chicken
3. Get Up and Dance
4. Party Manners (2)
5. Party Manners [long]
6. thank you Rudy
7. Big Fat Chicken leaders not asking
8. Simple male leads
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:07:31 -0500
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: manners
Dear list,
It would be nice if as soon as any woman walked in the door of a
milonga, ten gorgeous gauchos, who just took a shower, bought new
stylish clothes, with fresh mints under their eloquent tongues, invited
a woman to a dance, just like in the old times:}, but the reality of Y2K
is not quite the same.
On the other hand if I was a woman, who just walked in that door, I'd
probably run back out! How would I possibly know which one of the men
can listen to the music and follow it? Which one can lead without
breaking my body into the islands of pain? Which one would enjoy my
enjoyment of tango, not use me to show off his positions? I think I'd
sneak in a back door and watch the men first.
Cherrie, I attended as a guest many milongas in different cities in the
US and abroad. My most difficult experience was in BsAs in first
two-three days. I simply could not bring myself to winking at a man I've
never seen before, to show my interest in dancing with them, plus I do
not speak Spanish. But after I danced several times man saw I could
follow, and therefore began inviting me to dance. talking to
dancers helps too: male and female. People usually like to be friendly
and will introduce you to others. If host is available, great! But if
not, we are responsible for our own good time, aren't we?
Nitin's comment about hospitality at a private party vs. milonga brings
up another point: what kind of social gathering is milonga? Is it a
part of a community event where dancers come to practice, socialize,
watch and learn; or Is it a semi-private party where only some are
really welcome? Others are tolerated since they've paid.
Eugenia
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:34:16 EST
From: Sherrie Pallotta <SherPal @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Big Fat Chicken
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:56:00 -0500
From: Michael Ditkoff <Michael.B.Ditkoff @USDOJ.GOV>
Subject: Get Up and Dance
David Rodriguez called himself a "big fat chicken" because of his
intimidation of "not being able to provide the type of lead which I so
admire."
David, the ONLY way you will get the type of lead you admire is to Get
Up and Dance at milongas. Lessons are a waste of money if you're not
going to dance what you have learned. Dancing at practicas is for
practice, not dancing. At practicas, you can stop in the middle of
tango to work on a particular problem. The lights are usually near
maximum brightness so that couples can look at their feet and figure
out why correct execution of a figure isn't happening. At milongas,
the opposite occurs. The lights are usually low, bordering on pitch
black, and couples shouldn't stop on the dance floor (especially in
crowded traffic) and figure out why correct execution isn't happening.
The true test of a dancer is how well (s)he dances in the "real
world," i.e. milongas. There may not be room for a man to lead the
figure he has been working on for weeks. A woman may be frustrated
because she isn't given a chance to play. You dance anyway.
I use to think I had to shove everything I knew into every tango. Then
I watched my teacher dance. He didn't shove everything he knew into a
3:22 tango, so why should I.
IMHO, women appreciate being treated as women on the dance floor. When
they accept an offer to dance, they are silently saying "Take me, lead
me, protect me." Of all the women I've danced with in the past 15
months, only ONE complained that I wasn't leading enough figures.
After the tango, I introduced her to a tanguero who wore her out in
two dances.
I don't have to be the best dancer at a milonga, I just have to be
good. When I realized I didn't have to compete with other men to have
women dance with me, a tremendous burden was lifted off my shoulders.
Now I could relax. There will always be better dancers than me. That's
not going to stop me from dancing tango.
It's time for you to get off the bench and into the game. You wrote
"So if you see me standing looking like I am waiting for something to
happen it s because I am a big fat chicken." Take it from me, nothing
is going to happen unless you make it happen.
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 19:43:56 -0800
From: Judith Farkas <judith @PARACEL.COM>
Subject: Re: Party Manners
Dear List,
Are you all crazy or what?! ;-) It is not that we in the SF Bay Area do
not care to see new faces. WE LOVE to see our milongas grow and prosper
as they have indeed! It is simply that we may not even notice that a new
person arrives amongst the 75 - 100+ guests! We make it a point to make
as many people feel welcome as possible, but as I explained in my previous
message, you run out of both time and energy. At that point, other people
( ALL attendees ) need to contribute to the milonga and the Tango community
as a whole. Attendees, new and old, need to welcome each other,
introduce the newcomers to the regulars, etc. My goodness! Everything
else is provided for you all! I feel as if many of you, folks want some
sort of baby sitter to take responsibility for your social experience as a
whole without any personal contribution or effort. It is ridiculous!
AND, what is this about pocketing of money and such?! Who is getting rich
off Tango?! I want to speak to any such individual. There is the
possibility that I am doing something terribly wrong and I want to
know!. Has anyone bothered to consider the thousands of dollars that a
decent commercial sound system costs?! Has anyone thought to ask a
milonga host or hostess, just how much he or she has spent on the Tango CD
collection alone?! Has anyone considered how many hours one must spend to
familiarize one's self with the music, such that milonga mixer CD's can
perhaps be contemplated? Then how long do you think is required to plan
and make that CD? A small aside might lead one to wonder who pays for the
equipment to make that milonga mixer CD. What do you think it costs to
rent the hall? Did you know that some places require that you obligate
yourself for a full year of rental costs?. Even when you go on vacation,
you still have to pay for that hall, milonga or no milonga. What about
liability insurance? The premium for the year is payable in full. You
do not pay per milonga. Believe me! There is no profit! If it were so
profitable & so easy to set up, maintain and hopefully grow a milonga, why
wouldn't more of you hold your own milongas?! Frankly, it is not so easy
and it does not compare to the personal entertaining that I do at home
either. Who would dream of inviting 100 people into one's
home?! Hosting a milonga requires a consistent investment of time,
energy, dollars & love. If you do not love the dance, the music and the
Tango community with all of its eccentric critters, then you would not ever
dream of making this type of commitment. In the end, it is often
difficult to enjoy your own milonga because you are too busy as a host or
hostess tending the music, or the food, or cleaning up a drink that someone
spilled? We have even had to tend to emergency toilet repairs! You hold
a regular milonga, because you have a much greater than average commitment
to the Tango community. As a guest, you show up if and when you feel like
it with just your person. A host shows up rain or shine, sick or healthy
hours before the milonga begins. As a guest, you leave when you feel like
it. You simply gather your belongings and leave at your leisure. A host
leaves, not just after the milonga is over, but after the breakdown, clean
- up and packing is finished. A host leaves last. A host is committed
long before, during and after a milonga.
BTW, many thanks to Lois for her comments.
Best Regards To All,
Judith
Judith Farkas
Senior Account Manager
Paracel
3833 North First Street
San Jose, CA 95134
510.583.6175 Phone
judith @paracel.com
www.paracel.com
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:57:25 EST
From: Jeanne Hill <GeneJeanne @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Party Manners
Dear Judith,
You are so right! As a Milonga organizer, I am only too familiar with your
strong, straight forward, to the point and 100% factual statement. Thank you
for voicing your point of view. I could not agree more. The only thing that
keeps me doing the Milonga parties is the pleasure of meeting, mingling,
talking and when I see everyone enjoying themselves.
Jeanne
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 13:48:42 -0800
From: Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy.zelaya @ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: Party Manners [long]
Hola Naifas y Garabos,
MACFroggy @aol.com wrote:
>>I know it isn't easy to put on a big dance, and that you can't please
>>everybody, but sometimes just a little effort on a few simple things can make
>>all the difference in whether someone comes back or not.
and then proceeded to give some pointers to "the host (or hostess) of a dance"
(mind you, as far as I know, without the benefit of having to put together
a regular milonga of her own, but hey, how hard could it be? ;-)
Since then, a variety of people have responded to the points she made and
other points that always materialize on this list no matter what the original
subject might be (kinda like no matter what you are searching for on the web,
porn sites always show up ;-) So, once again, the old dead horse of
women-asking-not-asking-sitting-out-too-many-dances-its-a-man's-responsibility-
et al, rides again. ;-) But I digress.
As one of those people which Cherie is
>>"calling for a little more from [...]
>>than the providing of space and refreshment, music, and the pocketing
>>of money--especially with out-of-town guests. Sociability, warmth
>>(even if faked), common courtesy--otherwise why are they in the business
>>of tango?"
I feel compelled to respond. So here it is. But first,
lets do a reality check.
Providing a space is not easy. Unless you already own/rent a hall, a Tango
entrepreneur will spend many a week/months trying to find one adequate
enough to act as a Tango venue. Restaurants and bars are out. Tango
people will make it a point to let you know that they don't like to
dance on a full belly and drinking interferes with their balance. In
my experience, any arrangements you have with a restaurant or bar will
eventually collapse because of tangueros and tangueras lack of patronage.
That leaves dance studios and assorted halls. These establishments are
very much in demand by other more popular dances/events (especially for
Friday-Saturday evenings) and thus tend to be expensive or have lots of
regulations (no alcohol, must have insurance, out by 11:00PM, security
guard, etc.) If your local tango entrepreneur manages to find a space
that is reasonably clean, accessible, not in a dangerous part of town,
and not prohibitively expensive, THANK HIM/HER/THEM. They deserve it.
Providing refreshments and/or food is not easy. You have to buy it
from your own pocket in the full knowledge that if there is little
attendance most (all?) of it will go into the trash, and if more people
show up than expected they'll demand that you do something about it.
The same people that insist on a rebate of the door price because
they don't drink/eat will make sure to serve themselves the wine/drink
and food until there isn't any left. Unless you enlist the help of
people that can prepare the food at the milonga you are better off
with pre-cooked food. Even then, someone needs to put it in plates,
glasses need to be provided, water, and ice needs to be brought out
and monitored lest it runs out. If your venue is a restaurant, you
can purchase food there (usually expensive). If you are at a bar or
expect people to come in early and patronize the restaurant, you are
in trouble. Some tangueros/tangueras will rather sneak in their own
food/drink/bottled water in their shoe bags(!!) than spend a dollar
patronizing the business that opens its doors to them. If your tango
entrepreneur provides refreshments and/or food, THANK HIM/HER/THEM.
They deserve it.
Providing *good* music is not easy. CDs are not cheap. Tango CDs are
rare in this country (USA). Good Tango CDs are rarer still. In order
to have a good selection of music, your average DJ will spend hundreds
of dollars (if not thousands) on CDs. In order to provide you with a
good sound system your average DJ will spend thousands of dollars on
equipment. In order to provide you with one hour of good music a
good DJ will spend 4 hours at home listening to/arranging the songs.
Unless the venue already has a good sound system (rare), the average DJ
will spend countless hours schlepping equipment to and fro his/her
car/van apartment/house at ungodly hours. Think about it. The DJ/organizer
is the first one there before the class/milonga starts and the last one there
after everybody leaves (sometimes at 2-3 in the morning.) Have *you*
tried to pick up a 60 pound loudspeaker at 3 in the morning and carry it
up/down a couple of flights of stairs after a full day's of work and
7 hours of milonga? If not, THANK HIM/HER/THEM. They deserve it.
Pocketing money is typically the last thing that most milonga
hosts/hostesses get to do on a regular basis. Lets do the math, shall we?
Assume that you are lucky enough to get a venue for $25.00 an hour (Ha! most
places charge $35-$75/hour). You'll need the place for 7 hours: 6-7 setup,
7-8 beg. class, 8-9 int/adv. class, 9-12 milonga, 12-1 cleanup.) == $175.00
Food, drink, glasses, plates, etc. will set you back around $150.00
Hiring a teacher can be done for a flat fee (risky for you if not enough
people show up) or as a percentage of the door (risk is shared but
the teacher will want a guaranteed minimum and high percentage) lets assume
that you'll pay your teacher a bare-bones 70% of the admission charged
to people taking the class (this cheapo rate is just for you because you are
the teacher's long time friend/ex-lover/cousing twice removed ;-)
Since this is a private club, the hall demands that you have some kind
of insurance in case something happens. That comes to around $25.00
per event (not to you of course, you shelled out the $1,300.00 a year
up-front before you could rent the hall and to obtain the all important
certificate of insurance.) Since you will be acting as your own DJ, you
won't have to pay for one (if this was a wedding, a DJ would cost you
$400-$600 for 4 hours). Ditto, for your sound equipment (renting one
would set you back $200-$500 depending on how large a venue and how much
equipment you need.) A full collection of Argentine Tango music is
invaluable given its rarity and not for rent at any price but you already
have one, don't you?
So, here's the formula:
net = tangueros * admission - (venue + ins + food_drink) +
(students * admission * 30%)
Lets say that our brave entrepreneur charges $10.00 for milonga and $12.00
for milonga and class. He/she is in luck, 60 people (Hooray!) attend the event
(30 students and 30 tangueros):
net = 30*10 - (175+25+150) + (30*12*0.30)
Rejoice. You just made yourself the handsome sum of $58.00. That comes
to $8.29 and hour -- a full 71 cents LESS than a teenager working at
an In-N-Out hamburger restaurant.
Oh, but look, next event it was raining so only 7 students showed up
and 15 tangueros:
net = 15*10 - (175+25+150) + (7*12*0.30)
Oh, oh. You just donated $174.80 of your own money to the Tango community.
The teacher hates you. C'est la vie.
If you decide to take a vacation or your work demands that you be
away on the day of the milonga, you just made another $200.00 donation.
By the way, since YOU had the audacity of not being there when the community
wanted to dance, next event only half of the people show up. Too bad.
If your tango entrepreneur cares for you enough to put in the time,
money, and effort so that you can have a good time, THANK HIM/HER/THEM.
They deserve it.
So Cherie and the rest of you who think likewise, with all due respect,
stop your belly-aching. If your milonga host/hostess does not greet
you like a puppy dog just because you decided to show up at his/her/their
event stop and think that maybe, just maybe, they have other more pressing
things to think about or do (like cleaning a spilled drink, or getting
more water, or keeping an eye on the drunk person who just walked in
and decided to join the party). Please don't take it as a personal insult.
Most milonga hosts/hostesses I have met are busting their asses trying
to make sure everything is running smoothly and may not have time to greet
and socialize with every guest. Take the initiative. If you feel so
strongly about welcoming people and making them feel at home and you
believe that the host/hostess is not doing the job...
DO SO YOURSELF!
Here's what you do: Go stand by the door (where it is usually cold even
here in sunny California) and greet everyone with a wide smile and an embrace.
Wear something warm and comfortable. You might as well leave your dance
shoes at home since you won't have much time to dance anyway. Now begin
to welcome everybody who walks in. Including those who come to the milonga
only once every 9 months but become incensed because you don't remember
their names. Take the ones that come to tell you that the music could be
better because you played *one* song that they didn't like out of a set of
40 and introduce them to all your friends. Don't let the ones that have
not taken a lesson in years but can't make a step without tripping over you,
and insist that it is your fault, dissuade you from dancing with them.
Please make a point of introducing yourself to those that on a routine basis
try to get in without paying by coming in through the back door or while
you are away from the door. Rejoice at the sight of those who have decided
that because they are late they deserve to be let in at half price. Don't
forget to greet warmingly those who believe that $10.00 for an evening
of good music, good food, good drink, and good company is an exhorbitant
price and that you are gouging them so they throw the money at you and stomp
right in. Reassure the lady that took her first class and stayed for half the
milonga, but since she didn't get to dance as much as she wanted, demands
a full refund that it will be different next time. Make sure to bear-hug
the tanguero who blames you because the light from the lamp post outside
of the milonga is too bright. (In case you are wondering, yes all of these
are real people.) Last but not least, make full use of your extra sensory
powers to determine which of the new people wants to be recognized, singled
out, introduced, be left alone, is here to watch only, can't stand you but
comes to be with his/her friends anyway, etc., etc.
As for your last point, that "Sociability, warmth (even if faked),
common courtesy" is somehow the milonga host/hostess responsibility
is pure nonsense. If a community does not have those characteristics
to begin with, Miss Manners herself aided by Mother Theresa could not
produce them if they ran a milonga. That responsibility is a shared one.
It is you and you and the rest of you who create the social environment,
not the host/hostess.
Finally you ask: "otherwise why are they in the business of tango?"
I don't know about other people (actually I do know because I bother
to ask but it is not my place to tell you ;-) but I'll give you
*my* reason (although I can't help but giggle when I hear the words
business and tango used together in one sentence):
Self defense. That's it. It's either that or just plain ol' stupidity.
(I prefer the former althought some of my closest friends think is
the latter ;-) Let me explain. I loath driving 2 hours to and fro
to listen to a crappy DJ arrange a crappy music list of crappy recordings
on a crappy sound system at a crappy location full of crappy dancers
and paying for the privilege. There. I said it. It's my opinion, so sue me.
So, I figured that if I had control of the music, sound system, location,
etc., I would have nobody to blame but myself for anything I disliked,
EVERYBODY would love me AND I'll pocket oodles and oodles of money... ;-)
But seriously, the reason is that I *LOVE* Tango. I'm not talking about
a passing fling "it's Tuesday night and I ain't got notting to do-lets
go tango dancing" kinda of love. Nope. It's the kind that makes you
think "Man, if I sell some of my organs I'll have enough money so
I won't have to work and I can Tango for a year!!" kinda of love.
This is an absolute requirement for all of you milonga hosts/hostesses
out there. After all is said and done the love of Tango will be
the *only* thing that will keep you going in the face of all the
things you'll have to put up with.
Thus, 5 years ago I took the plunge, spent several thousand dollars
on a professional sound system and started having milongas of my own
(I had already spent thousands of dollars collecting Tango music.)
As luck would have it, hundreds of people seem to like what I do and
how I do it. Many, many of them have become my friends and I make it
a point to greet them and welcome them whenever and wherever I see them.
New people come to my milonga all the time. Mind you, some of them
are not *new* in the full sense of the word because they attend other
milongas in the San Francisco bay area and I have seen them or met them
there. I try to greet them and make them feel welcome. I don't always
succeed. On the other hand, it is the ultimate irony that many a night
it has happened that I was so busy tending to the music, the food,
socializing, etc., that I didn't get to dance at all --the one reason
I wanted to have a milonga to begin with. Now my partner hates me too
for not dancing with her :-( C'est la vie.
Wishing many happy Tangos to you all in this New Millennium.
---
ruddy
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 18:56:23 EST
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: thank you Rudy
I am so happy that someone wrote about what it takes to put on a Milonga or a
big Diner dance, or even just a practica. The money we loose! I'm very lucky
that my saving account has handled and can still handle a few set backs. My
poor bank account, and all for the love of Tango. Although most of the events
I put on are just breaking even, or even making me a little money, there is
that one night you loose all you gained. I have to mention the emotional
roller coaster a promoter goes though when something doesn't go well, and the
high I get when it does. I have to mention what little we dance because we're
busy seeing that everyone is having a good time. The social life we're
missing because we have to be at that milonga every Saturday night, rain or
shine, or snow. What price do I put on that? I remember standing outside the
hall in snow and 20 degree weather waiting, because the person with the key
was late. I can remember a workshop I put on where absolutely everyone came
20 minutes late. I didn't think any one was coming.
How many times has this happened to your community? Your having one of the
biggest Milongas you ever put on, you hope and need everyone to come to make
it successful, and the neighboring community also decides to put on a
workshop at the same time. Bummer! Both communities loose.
The one part of putting on a tango workshop I love the most and can't even
begin to put a price on, is having the guest instructor staying in my home. I
don't always get a lesson with them, but I do get to really know and
sometimes love these people, and understand tango better because of the
stories they tell you. When Nito and Elba were here and even Tioma and
Vivianna on Sunday morning the house was filled with visitors and an
impromptu party happens, dancing in the kitchen, on the patio,WOW! The story
telling, the joking around, I love it.
But the biggest, the best thing in the whole world I get from all this is the
wonder full new friends I now have. The nice feeling of accomplishment I get
when I look at a couple dancing the tango and I say to my self, I taught them
that, and there is a whole lot more.
There will always be tango in Cleveland if I am around.
Please come to Cleveland and grade my host ability on Feb 19 for my 2nd
Anniversary Tango Ball. I would be interested in hearing your comments.
There will be live tango music, plus live Salsa and Merengue
A fantastic Diner Menu, and Performing the tango will be, GET THIS!
DANIEL LAPADULA with CHRISTY COTE', TIOMA "EL RUSO" MALORATSKY with KATRINA
ZENO, and JORGE NEL with MARA CARLSON
Please E mail me for more information
I am
Tim Pogros (TimmyTango)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 20:05:51 -0600
From: Naomi Bennett <Naomiben @SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Big Fat Chicken leaders not asking
Shyness from leaders and followers is a problem for all of us. I was just
talking with a very experienced dancer and this was his comments.
To get over his fear of asking strange women, he decided that when he went
to a dance, his goal was to be turned down by at least three great women.
So, he asked the best, the prettiest, the ones that lighted up his eyes.
Some nights he could delight in achieving his goal of being turned down 3
times, other nights he had to regret that that he didn't make his goal and
had to dance with all the women he asked!
Naomi Bennett
Austin, TX
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 20:13:21 -0600
From: Naomi Bennett <Naomiben @SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Simple male leads
I know a leader that has been dancing only 10 months. He likes to walk and
do close embrace or traspie. But his steps are straight forward without
much figures.
Many very experienced followers give him complements for his dancing which
is emotionally passionate. They are taken by his emotionality and the
confidence of his lead.
Recently, he danced with a female dancer that was a teacher, danced for
seven years, had been very close friends with Fabian, Gustavo and Chico, so
she had danced many times with the best. Yet she told him that she enjoyed
dancing with him because he was so present with her.
So, I encourage all you simple, beginner leaders to concentrate on your own
emotional attention to the music and the woman you are holding. That will
take you farther with your dancer partner than all the complex patterns you
could lead.
Naomi Bennett
Austin, TX
End of TANGO-L Digest - 7 Jan 2000 to 8 Jan 2000 (#2000-7)
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