The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 6 Jan 2000
to 7 Jan 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 6 Jan 2000 to 7 Jan 2000 (#2000-6)
There are 17 messages totalling 857 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Where to find good exercises
2. Party Manners (5)
3. Party Manners etc. (2)
4. re Party Manners
5. Exercises (2)
6. Mercy dances
7. Fw: Tango in South Africa
8. other party manners
9. Party manners
10. Big Fat Chicken
11. Party Manners to strangers
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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:54:24 +0000
From: Daniel Machado <Daniel_Machado @AMSINC.COM>
Subject: Where to find good exercises
Hola Tangueros
My partner and myself are beginers on Tango dancing. I would like to know where
can I find good exercises, to practice on an emplty living room or ball room
(with the partner of course), in order to improve our skills, walking, sacadas,
ganchos and, mainly, to improve our comunication. She sometimes don't feel my
indications (or it's me giving it the wrong way) and is often warried with the
others and the walls looking arround and not concentrating. Besides the
experience are there any exercises in order to improve the "trust"?
Could anyone send me this infos? Internet sites, word documents, whatever else?
Many thanks
Daniel
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:55:51 +0100
From: Peter Niebert <Peter.Niebert @IMAG.FR>
Subject: Party Manners
"Renaldo \"Ron\" Leon" writes:
> Personally, I do not feel that it is a man's responsibility to "have to" dance
> with "every" woman at a milonga or "ask" every woman at a milonga to dance.
> Perhaps it is the responsibility of the host(s) because of their promoting or
> sponsorship of their milonga, but I do not think that an "attending" tanguero
> should have to feel "obligated" to dance with each and every woman or feel like
> less of a "gentleman" because he does not ask each and every woman to dance.
I could not agree more. Obligation takes all the power out of the
encounter.
In George Orwell's 1984, the totalitarian system of Oceania obliges
married couples to make love (and there are cameras to check): "Our
duty to the party". Cleverly, because this way all subversive elements
of sexual relationships of men and women are eliminated by duty. What
a sad activity.
So is it: "Our duty to the Tango community?" Enough said.
I am not categorical, though. I think, that one *should* invite out of
courtesy and respect. And we cannot ignore that Tango takes place in a
social context and - in public. So sometimes there are situations
where - say - education rather than hedonism influences the choice
who I dance with.
Still. I have found myselves several times in situations where a woman
expressed in one way or another that she believes to have a *right* to
dance with me, even though at the same time she believes that I do not
eagerly want to. Speaking of manners, this is for me a severe sign of
disrespect.
No, I think the only way to dance is that both agree to do so. This
implies for both the right to refuse without losing face.
Tango is nice when it happens. You cannot force it! And there is no
right on happiness on this planet either.
Melinda, it is a fact of current social reality that there are more
women than men and - in addition - some women are invited all the time
while other sit all evening. This reality cannot be changed by
imposing a social code. The women who do not get what they need, they
drop out. Same for the men. This is a fact.
I wish you many intimate Tangos, in which you can forget the social
context for a moment or two!
Peter de Grenoble, France
PS: What Cherry was talking about, again, was another subject. I too
have danced in many different places. Sometimes I was frustrated,
sometimes I was astonished by the hospitality. For example a few years
ago in Aarhus, Denmark, where the organiser Gunnar Svendson found a
partner for me and additionally held a class in English so that I
could follow, even though some people in the class had slight problems
with English.
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:21:01 -0000
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Party Manners etc.
When attending a "strange" new place it is always going to be more difficult
to make friends and connections unless one already has a friend or a
friendly host or other who is willing to become a "bridge" and introduce the
"stranger" to the "locals". I think it is unreasonable to expect to be
accepted and immediately taken in by a group of strangers. I've always
noticed this phenomenom when going to "any" type of new or strange place
whether it is a disco in Atlanta or a milonga in Bs As or anywhere else
where I dont know people. The fact is that it takes time and multiple visits
to get accepted into any group.
On the other hand, in the local milongas that we host, we go to great
lengths to welcome new people and try to attract them to our community to
make the tango group grow. Also, most times, any visitor who comes to our
milongas has already made contact with us (that is how they found us) so
they are our "invited guests" and as such they get all the attention we can
give them.
The "guest" also has certain obligations and must have adequate social
skills. It is not fair to expect others to do all the "work" for us. If I
want to mingle and "fit in", I try to make friends and contacts when I'm
among strangers, and unless they are completely without manners I usually
make contacts and that makes a lot of difference.
On the topic of dancing with "all the women", I find it impossible to do.
There is only so much time in the evening and I do not believe it is my
responsability to to this anyway. It is interesting that some women who
always ask me to dance and expect me to dance with them are the ones who
never come to class or practice. Obviously, these are the people who are the
least fun to dance with. OTOH, the ones who I most often see in class or
practica or at milongas, etc. are the ones who are most fun to dance with
and I want to dance with them.
I believe that if you want to be asked to dance a lot, you must become a
good dancer. Take classes, attend practicas and go to every dance
opportunity you can find. This applies to women and men as well. Also, if
you want to be approached and accepted you have to be approachable and
friendly. It takes a lot of social skills and work to become part of a
group. Most people struggle with these issues in all facets of their lives.
Tango venues are just like any other type of place and just like a
neighborhood tavern, one has to work at getting in the "in" group. I believe
that is totally unreasonable to expect everybody else to automatically
accept us all and welcome us with open arms when we are total strangers and
unknown to them. That is just how life is. Just because we dance tango it
does not change anything. I say, get a grip, check out the world at large
and be realistic. Go to clubs and discos, it does not matter whether you go
to a Salsa or Swing club or a CW bar, the same rules apply. Why expect Tango
to be different?
Of course, anyone who visits Atlanta will be made to feel welcome at any
milonga where I am. Please contact me before you come if possible and I'll
be happy to tell you all the tango opportunities available and will do my
best to make you feel welcome by the tango community in Atlanta.
Manuel
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:27:07 EST
From: Cherie Magnus <MACFroggy @AOL.COM>
Subject: re Party Manners
Hi everyone,
I'd just like to say to Manuel and others, that I was not referring to any of
the attendees at the out-of-town milongas in my complaints of inhospitality.
I was simply wishing for hospitality from the host/hostess in introducing me
to others and perhaps even inviting me to dance once. I know it's possible,
because it has happened many times, and has made all the difference to me.
I'm just calling for a little more from the promoters than the providing of
space and refreshment, music, and the pocketing of money--especially with
out-of-town guests. Sociability, warmth (even if faked), common
courtesy--otherwise why are they in the business of tango?
Cherie
Los Angeles
http://www.viveladifference.com
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:00:05 -0500
From: Richard Lipkin <ezie @EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Party Manners etc.
F8D40B0E983C84429CC23C41
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white95r wrote (Manuel) writes:
> I believe that if you want to be asked to dance a lot, you must become a
> good dancer. Take classes, attend practicas and go to every dance
> opportunity you can find. This applies to women and men as well.
I would like to add to this: "Take some private lessons too".
Some of these awkward dancers just need specialized help from
a good instructor to identify and remove impediments to better dancing.
Don't forget mouthwash & deodorant :-)
Richard
NYC Tango Calendar
F8D40B0E983C84429CC23C41
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<HTML>
white95r wrote (Manuel) writes:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I believe that if you want to be asked to dance a
lot, you must become a
<BR>good dancer. Take classes, attend practicas and go to every dance
<BR>opportunity you can find. This applies to women and men as well.</BLOCKQUOTE>
I would like to add to this: "Take some private lessons too".
<BR>Some of these awkward dancers just need specialized help from
<BR>a good instructor to identify and remove impediments to better
dancing.
<P>Don't forget mouthwash & deodorant :-)
<P>Richard
<BR>
<P><A HREF="http://users.erols.com/ezie/">NYC Tango Calendar</A>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR> </HTML>
F8D40B0E983C84429CC23C41--
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:02:00 -0500
From: Michael Ditkoff <Michael.B.Ditkoff @USDOJ.GOV>
Subject: Exercises
Daniel Machado requested exercises to improve communication with his
partner. I suggest the following.
Daniel, dance with your hands clasped behind your back and your
partner's hands on your shoulders. Now dance. You and your partner
will quickly find out if there is good communication. When something
goes wrong, ask your partner "What lead did you feel?" The response
might range from "none" to "I couldn't do what you wanted because I
was on the wrong foot." TIP: The woman is never "on" the wrong foot.
She is on the foot the leader put her on. If the leader forgets which
foot the weight is on, that's HIS fault for the woman not being able
to execute. So many times the woman apologizes for not being able to
execute when she couldn't possibly execute because the man put her on
the wrong foot or gave her a bad lead.
For leading ochos, your partner might say she wasn't pointed in the
direction for ochos. This is your cue that you didn't rotate your
shoulders enough.
When you and your partner can dance relying exclusively on your
shoulders to lead, you'll have no trouble dancing with arms. Your
shoulders will be conditioned to rotate.
Best of luck.
Michael
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:22:54 EST
From: Cherie Magnus <MACFroggy @AOL.COM>
Subject: Mercy dances
Hi Listees,
Just for the record, I don't give *mercy dances* nor do I wish them given to
me, EXCEPT for milonga hosts, and teachers I may be studying with or have
taken lessons with in the past.
The very idea of a man inviting me to dance for any reason other than our
mutual pleasure makes me want to take up chess.
Cherie
Los Angeles
http://www.viveladifference.com
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:38:45 +0000
From: Carol Shepherd <shepherd @ARBORLAW.COM>
Subject: Re: Party Manners
One of the reasons I like tango so much is that it's different. I like
milongas, to me they are different, more "party" than the typical "dance
parties" held by dance studios. At our milongas in Detroit everyone is
chatty and gracious and there to socialize and watch as much as just to
dance. To me, a milonga is always being hosted by someone, and that
host or hosts does have a responsibility to play a host's role, ie be
hospitable to new and returning guests, even if I'm paying an admission
charge to attend. If I'm a new face, I expect to be greeted and
introduced to a couple of people, and I expect polite interest (feigned
or real :) to be shown in me as a new acquaintance. I don't expect to
be asked to dance by a host of the appropriate gender, but I think this
is very very nice--because at a dance party, the only way a new dancer
will mesh into a group is to let them show off their level on the dance floor.
I understand that organizing and hosting involves work (I throw a lot of
parties myself!) and some people do it reluctantly only so they will
have a place to dance. But, some people love it, it's a happy thing
when the people who have that knack are willing to do it for everyone else!
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw Associates PLLC
Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
734 668 4646 v 734 663 9361 f
business, technology, entertainment
and new media law
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:13:04 -0500
From: Nitin Kibe <nkibe @WORLDBANK.ORG>
Subject: Re: Party Manners
This is a somewhat delicate issue, but let me try an angle not yet mentioned by
anyone else.
Perhaps a milonga is somewhere between a straightforward "private" social event
(specific known people are invited, typically to a home, hospitality is
provided, no money changes hands) and a completely open public event (a film
show, theatre, all welcome as long as they can pay and basic rules of behaviour,
etc observed).
Unlike the former, in a milonga, people may not know each other or even the host
in any substantive personal or professional sense (last names, occupations,
backgrounds, etc) and may not feel obliged to ensure that everyone has a good
time. While some may have met before and will meet again, out of choice or
circumstance, others may never see each other again.
Unlike the latter, a milonga is not just the passive consumption of packaged
entertainment: a degree of interaction is possible, often between strangers, at
fairly close quarters. Therein lies the pleasure and the peril, the risk and
the reward.
Perhaps part of the problem is that the language, assumptions and practices of
private social entertaining are used in a different situation, where different
"rules" apply.
Now that I have got the theory off my chest, I quite agree with some of the
points others have made: it certainly doesn't hurt if the host (sic) goes out of
his way to make a guest (sic) feel welcome. Nor if a guest makes an effort to
allocate at least some of his time to other guests, beginners or newcomers in
particular. All in a spirit of good humour, goodwill and generosity.
If little else, remember, there could be a milonga at which you are the
newcomer, you don't even know the language and the gender balance is not in your
favour...
Good wishes to all.
Nitin Kibe
(A newcomer at milongas in London, Geneva, Lausanne, Bs As, Rio de Janeiro...and
the better off for it)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:56:58 -0600
From: Lois Donnay <donnay @FOXINTERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Party Manners
Cherie wrote:
> I'm just calling for a little more from the promoters than
> the providing of space and refreshment, music, and the pocketing of
> money--especially with
> out-of-town guests. Sociability, warmth (even if faked), common
> courtesy--otherwise why are they in the business of tango?
As a tango event organizer, (and especially after coming down from
particularly stressful New Year's Eve arrangements) I'd like to put in
a word of defense for the "promoters".
Of course we on the board of the Tango Society of MN work very hard to
make newcomers welcome. I try to dance with every new face I see, plus
get in a dance with my friends. But some events don't go so smoothly,
and my attentions are diverted - gate, temperature, music,
refreshment, trash problems, etc. take my time from the dance floor.
When the toilet paper runs out, people come to me. Plus people want to
talk to me, and I need to talk to people about a variety of
Society-related issues.
On the subject of the "pocketing" of money - I'm sure (I hope) that
there are people out there who are making decent money hosting
milongas. That's the way these dances will continue. But attendees
often don't realize the hidden costs involved. Publicity can include
brochures, newsletters and hotlines, and certainly time. Ballroom
rental, music, DJ's, gate help, insurance, music system, teachers,
decorating, cleanup, refreshments, all have associated costs. For
private milongas, there's a financial risk - what if the weather's bad
and no one comes?
Anyway, I'd like to thank all of the volunteers who help out at our
events so that we can keep costs down, and apologize to those I've
neglected. And I'm grateful for our local tango scene, where many
times the men outnumber the women!
Lois Donnay, President
Tango Society of Minnesota
www.mntango.org
pres @mntango.org
Hotline: 612.930.0929
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 17:26:05 -0500
From: David Allen <dsaj @MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Fw: Tango in South Africa
Original Message-----
From: David Allen <dsaj @mindspring.com>
To: TANGO-A @MITVA.MIT.EDU <TANGO-A @MITVA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Thursday, January 06, 2000 4:30 PM
Subject: Tango in South Africa
>A friend of mine ask if anyone can direct her to tango in Cape Town, South
>Africa. You can get in touch with her at mev1 @cdc.gov. Her name is Elsa.
>
>Many thanks and many blessings and joys in this new year and millenium.
>
>David
>
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:07:35 EST
From: for Brook Tankle <LV2TNGO @AOL.COM>
Subject: other party manners
I have been wanting to bring up this issue for some time now and I think it
is appropriate now re: manners. There have been a number of occasions that I
have been chatting with a man, either someone I know or someone I am just
getting to know, when a women will approach and ask the man to dance. I think
this is highly rude. Many times the conversation leads to an invitation to
dance and I am in "pre-dance ritual". I have been in the Tango community for
about 7 years and remember the overwhelming urge to dance every dance and run
around looking for a partner. I can appreciate the enthuiasm, but as I have
matured I have come to appreciate the subtle dynamics of coming to the dance,
the eye contact and flirtation that brings one to the embrace. I am not
strongly against women asking men to dance, and I am still guilty of the same
when a particular Tango moves me, but the way it is done can make a
difference because the dance can start before you step onto the dance floor.
My theory is that as long as women blatantly walk up to men to ask for a
dance, especially the better dancers, the men become less ambitious to seek
out partners since all they have to do is stand around and someone will
approach them. This could explain, as my women friends have commented, why we
see so many men just standing around like they're waiting for something to
happen...
I would like to ask both men and women to be sensitive to others in
conversation because you really don't know what you are interrupting.
What do you think?
Ciao, Brook
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 07:38:43 +0800
From: Wendy Brown <wenbrown @OMEN.NET.AU>
Subject: Exercises
Hello Daniel,
One of the best exercises I have found is for the follower to dance with her
eyes closed. It has a number of benefits - among them are::
* She has to wait on the man
* She will (should) only go where and as far as he leads
* She learns to trust - and when she does, she has a greater connection
with her partner.
If, also, the leader can stop looking at his feet when he dances, this also
benefits the connection between the two.
Just recently, two talented beginners, dancing together, were challenged to
try this. The difference it made to their dancing drew appreciative
congratulatory applause from us watching them. Their dance was more
delicate, caring, closer and more interpretive than when they had been
involved in their "technique".
I hope this helps. (I often close my eyes when teaching men about their lead
- how strong it has to be and where it should come from to bring the lady to
exactly the desired place. I also use it to pinpoint what is going wrong
with a move which looks OK but doesn't quite work.)
Good luck and keep practicing!
Wendy Brown
Perth
Western Australia
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:45:22 -0800
From: America Mauhar <amauhar @TPIMS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Party Manners
>Cherie wrote:
>I was simply wishing for hospitality from the host/hostess in introducing me
>to others and perhaps even inviting me to dance once. I know it's possible,
>because it has happened many times, and has made all the difference to me.
>
>I'm just calling for a little more from the promoters than the providing of
>space and refreshment, music, and the pocketing of money--especially with
>out-of-town guests. Sociability, warmth (even if faked), common
>courtesy--otherwise why are they in the business of tango?
Perhaps the big tango communities like New York or San Fransisco feel
secure enough in the size of their milongas to not care if new faces
return. But here in the hinterlands where tango is still only a small
community and our fates are subject to the whims of bar owners and DJs,
rest assured, new faces are welcomed, introduced and frequently spend more
time dancing than regulars. Every one of our tangueros knows that if we
are not inclusive to newcomers then we are in danger of losing the places
that we dance, so we all try to do our part to include everyone-regardless
of level. In fact a couple who wandered into the bar where I tango, looking
for swing dancing, found themselves tangoing with two of our more
experienced dancers and ended up picking up enough so that they could enjoy
the night quite a bit. When all of us give just one or two dances then
everyone has a better time.
So if you are a stranger looking for a warm reception, perhaps you should
try a smaller milonga where you will not get lost in the crowd and we will
not take you for granted. You are not just another five or ten dollars
here, in fact you may be the deciding factor in the venue owner NOT
deciding to change to a salsa format for the next week!
And if you are going to be in a city for a couple of milongas, starting at
a small one can introduce you to many of the dancers that you will see
again at the larger ones.
America Mauhar
Torrey Pines Institute for Molecular Studies
3550 General Atomics Court
San Diego, CA 92121
phone: (858)455-3741
FAX: (858)455-3739
E-mail: amauhar @tpims.org
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 19:01:30 +0100
From: Matthias Koller <koller @RZ.UNI-POTSDAM.DE>
Subject: Re: Party manners
Dear All,
I enjoyed a lot the ongoing discussion of aspects of party manners and
social behaviour on milongas and I want to thank your for your interesting
contributions. It made me reflecting my own behaviour and lead my to some
interesting conversations here in Berlin. I would like to add some coments
hoping that you understand and forgive me my bad English.
Cherie wrote:
......
>First of all, if you are the host (or hostess) of a dance, you should act
>like it. In other words, take responsibility for your guests having a good
>time, as if the party were in your home. This has been the case at several
>milongas I've attended (even in Buenos Aires), and it sure made all the
>difference to the kind of evening I had. I remember many warm hosts and
>hostesses, who did their best to help everyone feel welcome and to have a
>good time. ....
Lynn wrote:
....
>But as long as we are at it, how about the responsibilities of the "faithful
>supporters" you wrote about, "who come every week". Their behavior can help
>make the difference between a warm and friendly party and an ice palace.
>Anyone who's there every week knows who's new and who could best partner the
>unknown newcomer. They can help the busy host assure that the newcomer gets
>gently showcased -- more important than introductions at a milonga. ...
I agree that it is very important to try to integrate foreigners and
newcomers in the local milongas. The problem is that in bigger places it is
just impossible to know who is who. Here in Berlin we have milonagas every
night, often two or three parallel, some with 200 and more people. I go to
the milongas for about two years two or three days a week, but up to the
present day, I don't know more than 20-40%, especially when the place is
crowded. I'm sure that even a "very attentive" host (which unfortunatedly
we don't have here) or "every week comer" couldn't identify who is from
outside and who is not.
Cherie wrote:
.....
>Eric of Nijmegen, Holland, takes the time to plan little mixer games--find
the person of the opposite
>sex with a pin matching the one you got when you arrived; find the person who
>can answer a certain riddle, whatever. Maybe it seems silly, but it works.
And what about to use the Tango-A list (or something similiar) to get in
contact in with local people before arriving? I'll be happy to guide you
(the list members) through the milongas and introduce you to nice and
friendly people, when you come to Berlin.
Lynn wrote:
....
>Unfortunately, the idea of a milonga being a party seems to be lost on some.
>At a party, most people -- at least those with any social skills at all --
>are committed to helping make sure everyone has a good time. It's something
>you have to work at. You don't spend the evening chatting up the one person
>you find most interesting; you "work the room", you extend yourself. Some
>conversations are more rewarding than others, but by sharing the
>responsibility, everyone benefits: the rewards are spread around, nobody
>gets stuck with a dud, nobody gets left out.
>
Lynn, I doubt if there is common understanding or consensus on what a
Milonga or what a party is or should be, at least in bigger tango
communities. There we have such an variety of personalities, emotional,
intellectual and physical needs and wants that it is really hard to define
a common denominator except the tango itsself. Also my own needs are
changing. Sometimes I`m tired and lazy, sometimes adventorous and full of
energy, sometimes I'm shy or I want to dance and speak just with one or two
friends, sometimes I like to embrace the whole world. Generally I prefer
rules as little as necessary (it is leisure time, isn't it?). When I have
a good and exciting conversation, why should I give it up for a superficial
small talk with somebody else? (The same applies for dancing). I don't like
the idea that somebody talks or dances with me just to give me a nice
party feeling neither.
Melinda wrote:
.....
>I have been told that in country dancing in the US, ALL
>the men are expected to dance at least once with each woman, so that no one
>sits alone all evening. If a man forgets, the other men will remind him of
>his obligation.
....
>When I see other ladies sitting alone, I know I would not like that. So I
always
>encourage "my" guy to ask these ladies to dance. It only seems fair. When
>we were in Paris and London last year, almost no one spoke to us. We were
>clearly outsiders, and no one made any effort to welcome us.
Renaldo wrote:
....
>Personally, I do not feel that it is a man's responsibility to "have to"
dance
>with "every" woman at a milonga or "ask" every woman at a milonga to dance.
>Perhaps it is the responsibility of the host(s) because of their promoting or
>sponsorship of their milonga, but I do not think that an "attending" tanguero
>should have to feel "obligated" to dance with each and every woman or feel
like
>less of a "gentleman" because he does not ask each and every woman to dance.
...
Charles wrote:
...
>The milongas here in New York can be crowded and at times I won't even get
>around to my favorite partners. Sometimes the timing is off and one is
>seated while the other dances and vice versa. I dance at least three dances
>unless the person is really awful and that doesn't always leave much time to
>get to everybody some nights. I don't think people should change partners
>every dance. Doing a set of dances is much nicer and gives the dancers time
>to bond and communicate with Terpsichore :-)
...
In Berlin the average "dance duration" may amount to somewhat between 5-10
songs, with 3 beeing the minimum. If you (leader or follower) dance just
one or two songs your partner will may be feel a bit offended because
he/she takes it as an expression that you really didn't enjoy it. So even
in long tango night, you won't be able to dance with every woman. That is
why I try to dance at least with one woman I never danced before during a
night. Not so much for altruism but because I really like the suspension
and suprise of "the first time". But asking "unknown" women for a dance,
which I observed sitting already a long time without having danced, has
rewarded me several times with unpleasent refusals (i.e. being tango
voyeurs without knowing anything from the etikette and expressing in an
unfriendly way that they just want to watch ). Therefore I'm bit more
cautious now than I was before, especially when I don`t have my
"master_of_the_universe-self-esteem-day".
Renaldo wrote:
>While I agree that the Tango is a "community" and I certainly enjoy the
>community that AT brings to my life and all the closeness that there is in
AT,
>at the same time, I do not feel that it is "my" responsibility or obligation
>to make sure that others have a good time at the expense of my own good
>time. I think that we are all personally mature enough and adult enough
to be
>responsible for our own personal good time.
...
Renaldo and Lynn both express two fundamental ethical principles: take
responsability for your own (Renaldo) and take responsability for the
others (Lynn). Both are right and important, they shouldn't be played one
against the other but be combinded according to the situation and one owns
needs and possibilities.
Renaldo wrote
> I also mentioned that "they" (the women) can very well ask the men to
dance, especially in this
>day and age and the "90's" style of gender liberation.... The response
from some of them was "we do
>not feel comfortable with asking a man to dance" or it shouldn't have to
be that way.
I also want to encourage women to ask the men for a dance, me and probably
most of the men enjoy it (it is flattering, isn't it?). But I can
understand that some women just don't want to ask or are to shy...maybe it
is to simple just to proclaim that we are now in the "90's" or "00's?"
O.k. I don't want to stress your patience any longer,
I hope we'll have a lot more discussions like this one this year
let me wish all of you a happy New Year,
Matthias Koller
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:49:58 -0800
From: David <davidrod @SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Big Fat Chicken
With all due respect to Brook Tankle I submit the following.
I am fairly new to Tango and this is my first submission to Tango-L although
I have been spying for 4 or more months.
I have been taking classes (weekly if not more) and going to practicas for
the past few months but do not have a regular partner. Although my skills
have improved tremendously I do not feel comfortable asking a woman to dance
with me at a Milonga.
Perhaps I am easily intimidated but I know that I would not be able to
provide the type of lead which I so admire. Sometimes I sit and watch the
wonderful expressions which followers express during a beautiful dance and
it seems so far from the expressions I witness.
So if you see me standing looking like I am waiting for something to happen
it is because I am a big fat chicken.
Sincerely,
David Rodriguez
(Lucky to live in San Francisco)
p.s. I am not giving up but this is one of the toughest things I have ever
tried - even harder than learning to surf.
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 23:44:47 -0600
From: Naomi Bennett <Naomiben @SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Party Manners to strangers
This has been a very big year for me and tango. I go to new cities alone
and sometimes with a dance partner. I have danced for a year.
Every new milonga is a bit difficult. I followed the woman's social
manners in B.A. and didn't get to dance much as an unknown woman with about
15-20 other single women sitting at tables in competition.
I have now danced in Austin, Atlanta, Houston, Buenos Aires, Rio de
Jerinero, Vienna, Zurich, Budapest, Madrid, Barcelona, Amsterdam and
Nijmegen and Brussels.
In general, it was difficult to get dances and I sat too much. It really
helps to have a local contact to intoduce you. But some men just didn't
get the idea (after an introduction) that perhaps a dance would be nice for
the new stranger.
So, there are some things I have now decided to so. I go to festivals or
milongas and always take the classes. I may not need the class but it is a
way to casually meet male dancers and practice with them before the dance
(especially true in B.A. where so much value is given for the men to look
good on the floor). I now will get up and ask men to dance. Some are just
shy and some just didn't see you. If they say no (which does happen) I
don't take it personally. They have their reasons. I don't hesitate to
ask anyone under 50 but I am still intimiated by the very good male dancers
if their lead is complicated (very true in Europe). Beginner dancers are
just fine. It's the quality of the lead that is more important than it's
complexity. The dance is walking, not figures.
I am not an advanced dancer and mistakes happen. How the partners handle
it makes all the difference to the quality of the experience. I appreciate
at least a set of 3 dances with a new man. It takes about the second and
sometimes the third dance to follow all his leads. And every man leads
differently in the step combinations and in the mark.
Heaven does happen and so does electricity but that has more to do with
chemistry and not with how well we know each other or how well he or she
dances. I had a man talk to me about his dance being wonderful with a
beginner. It was the chemistry. His bias against asking her as a beginner
might have prevented him from having "the dance". Another beginner amazed
him with her comfort of being held completely in close embrace so soon.
You never know. I dance differently with different men so how I "look" on
the floor depends on the lead.
In general, I of course wished more strange men would ask me but we are
dealing with people and their personal tastes and manners.
In sales there is a motto for making a cold call (contacting someone that
you have never met). If you aren't willing to get a NO, you will never get
a YES. So, I choose to risk the NO for a YES. It's only 3 to 10 minutes
out of your life. The experience could be hell or it could be heaven but
it's always more than sitting or standing around watching others "have the
dance"..
Naomi Bennett
Austin, TX
End of TANGO-L Digest - 6 Jan 2000 to 7 Jan 2000 (#2000-6)
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