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Digest from 5 Jan 2000
to 6 Jan 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:00:02 -0500
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 5 Jan 2000 to 6 Jan 2000 (#2000-5)
There are 4 messages totalling 240 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. MISC: CD-Question (Thierry Caens)
2. Party Manners
3. Party Manners etc. (2)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 11:19:52 +0100
From: Sabine Fuchs <Sabine.Fuchs @SBG.AC.AT>
Subject: MISC: CD-Question (Thierry Caens)
Thanks to everybody who gave me information about the CD "Tangos y Milongas.
The Heart of Argentinian Tango" with Thierry Caens playing trumpet. I
ordered it in my local CD-shop and hopefully will have it in a few days.
Thanks!
Sabine
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:31:50 -0800
From: "Renaldo \"Ron\" Leon" <RLeon49r @PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Party Manners
Hola List,
Melinda's thoughts, comments and ideas are well taken. However, I personally
think that the responsibility to make a Milonga a "good time" lies within each
and every one of us, regardless of the gender. While I realize that my
thoughts on this subject may raise some potentially negative feedback or stir
up some interesting and well accepted constructive criticism, I do hope that
it is taken in the gentle and constructive way that it was intended :-)
Personally, I do not feel that it is a man's responsibility to "have to" dance
with "every" woman at a milonga or "ask" every woman at a milonga to dance.
Perhaps it is the responsibility of the host(s) because of their promoting or
sponsorship of their milonga, but I do not think that an "attending" tanguero
should have to feel "obligated" to dance with each and every woman or feel like
less of a "gentleman" because he does not ask each and every woman to dance.
While I agree that the Tango is a "community" and I certainly enjoy the
community that AT brings to my life and all the closeness that there is in AT,
at the same time, I do not feel that it is "my" responsibility or obligation
to make sure that others have a good time at the expense of my own good
time. I think that we are all personally mature enough and adult enough to be
responsible for our own personal good time. If I happen to meet by chance or
exchange pleasantries over the punch bowl with someone and have the opportunity
to introduce myself or ask them to dance (which I will do) then it is "my
choice". At the same time, many times I feel for many of the ladies whom are
either standing a great deal or sitting during many dances due to the higher
percentages of women to men.
At any given Milonga (usually 4-5 times a week) I usually dance with at least
10-15 different ladies in an evening. Of course there maybe at least 3-5 of
those whom are regular "favorites" of mine whom I will dance between 5-8 dances
with in any given evening. When you add up the numbers, that can be 25-40
individual dances in an evening. Not being in the best of shape, I find it
difficult to dance more than that in any of the 4-5 nights a week.
Recently, during a "Tango At Sea" cruise in the Caribbean, this same type of
issue came up at a "clearing the air" meeting amongst several members of the
cruise and many of the ladies felt that the men should "ask" more ladies to
dance because of the many whom were not dancing much at the nightly milongas
each night. I responded to them by saying that personally, I didn't feel
that it was my responsibility to have to ask "each" and everyone of these
ladies to dance and be responsible for them having a good time. I also
mentioned that "they" can very well ask the men to dance, especially in this
day and age and the "90's" style of gender liberation (maybe not the right
choice of words). I further mentioned that I never refuse a ladies invitation
to dance and that because of the imbalance of numbers of women to men
(approximately 55-45%) it was not my obligation or responsibility to make sure
each and every woman has a good time. This was each and every one of our "own"
choice or responsibility to make our time one that is enjoyable or fun.
The response from some of them was "we do not feel comfortable with asking a
man to dance" or it shouldn't have to be that way. Well this is not the
1940's or '50's but the 90's which is what has cause a great many former
"chivalrous" gentlemen to be left confused with what is the acceptable or
proper way to treat a lady ( "Damned if we do and damned if we don't").
I personally have chosen to always continue to be a gentleman while allowing
"todays" woman to be whomever she chooses. Not "expecting" anything from a
woman except the respect of treating me like a respectful human being has
allowed me to be responsible for my "own" good time and not expect "others" to
control or make my "time" good or bad, but to realize that my own time is a
matter of "choice" that I have control over.
I think that the "choice" that women choose during a milonga to take a
"risk"(?) and either "ask" someone to dance or go a little bit against some of
the tradition that we have been taught will allow for a better time at milongas
and not be so dependent on others to dictate whether or not we have a "good"
time or not so good time. It is a responsibility that we "own" and have a
choice to make it whatever it "is".
Whenever possible, I do seek out someone whom I have seen many times and
possibly never danced with, and I will make a point to ask for a dance and get
to know them a little bit. Sometimes it is kind of like the saying "so many
women and so little time" ;-) and it is difficult to have the opportunity to
meet each and every one at the Milongas, however, this subject has allowed me
to rethink and open up my own attitudes and awareness for the subject and
through that I believe it has helped me look at it in a different light.
This is what makes forums like these so great!
Sorry for the lengthy posting and I hope it is taken in the manner that it was
intended.
Happy Tangoing,
Renaldo Leon from SF Bay Area
Melinda Bates wrote:
> Cherie and Lynn wrote wonderful messages about the manners we should all
> show at a milonga. I have been told that in country dancing in the US, ALL
> the men are expected to dance at least once with each woman, so that no one
> sits alone all evening. If a man forgets, the other men will remind him of
> his obligation.
> What a kind and welcoming habit. I think tango is not like that because so
> often dancers believe they are "above" dancing with beginners or new
> comers - who may actually be accomplished dancers.
>
> I have been blessed to almost always have a regular tango partner. When I
> see other ladies sitting alone, I know I would not like that. So I always
> encourage "my" guy to ask these ladies to dance. It only seems fair. When
> we were in Paris and London last year, almost no one spoke to us. We were
> clearly outsiders, and no one made any effort to welcome us. As Lynn said,
> they were happy to take our money, but that was the end of it. I was so
> glad I was not alone!
>
> Thanks, ladies, for the reminder to create a kinder, gentler tango
> community.
>
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Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:52:06 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Party Manners etc.
Greetings,
There seem to be slightly divergent threads to the discussion about manners,
courtesy, etc at the milongas. I think the issue of feeling welcome at a
milonga is partly the responsiblity of the hosts. It is a nice gesture to
welcome out-of-towners and smart as well. Attendants are customers as well as
guests and help support the milongas. They needn't be singled out or
introduced, but acknowledged. It is not always so easy if there are many
people at a milonga like the ones we have in New York but at smaller ones it
is easy to do. It usually prompts the other people to ask them to dance. It's
not much fun to pay and sit all night watching others dance.
The other thread concerning etiquette about asking many people to dance is a
little more delicate and is not always so simple. I often observe women,
especially new faces to ascertain how well they dance before I ask them. I
admit that as a single male I will sometimes ask partners to dance because I
find them attractive but if they can't really dance I don't spend too much
time on the floor with them. But another factor to consider that has not been
really mentioned is the skill factor. As I become better I want to dance with
the best dancers I can. As I tell a partner who is always chiding me because
I won't dance more with her, "I have to practice too". I often dance with
beginners and think it is important for me as a teacher to do that but it can
be work. But speaking as an individual I also tend to return to women when I
feel them improving. Sometimes I want to dance with someone that is good
because I don't want to think about which steps I can or cannot do. Being a
good dancer is not just about being advanced. There are some women whose
style of dancing I don't like so I tend to not ask them. In some parts of the
country (or world) where smaller tango communities exist people may dance in
a similar manner but in places like here one will see more diverse styles.
And there is always that inexplicable factor of chemistry. I just don't enjoy
dancing with some people as much as others.
The milongas here in New York can be crowded and at times I won't even get
around to my favorite partners. Sometimes the timing is off and one is
seated while the other dances and vice versa. I dance at least three dances
unless the person is really awful and that doesn't always leave much time to
get to everybody some nights. I don't think people should change partners
every dance. Doing a set of dances is much nicer and gives the dancers time
to bond and communicate with Terpsichore :-)
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:49:20 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw @MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Party Manners etc.
Greetings all!
Charles makes a very good point:
> But another factor to consider that has not been
> really mentioned is the skill factor.
snip...
> But speaking as an individual I also tend to return to women when I
> feel them improving.
I have very much enjoyed dances made up mostly of salidas when the
beginning follower is at least able to execute without struggling.
It's not so hard to enjoy a nice connection with beginners. In those
dances with a simple structure, there also remains much for the
experienced partner to practice. How many of us dance anything
perfectly? [Those who think they do might ask for a second opinion! ;-) ]
Yet, I don't have very much patience for long-time beginners who
never improve for lack of practice. When there's no "connection",
both dancers are better off with somebody else. I always try to make
new people feel welcome, I always accept dances with followers who ask,
I try to remember who I've missed so I can get to them the next evening.
But, honestly, how can one expect good "chemistry" with a partner who
ignores their skill yet feels that others are OBLIGED to invite
them? Good dances are lead from the heart and are highly personal.
Every tango is different and there is no single formula for a
beautiful dance. However, it's always a pleasure to feel that, since
the last time, a particular dancer has really improved.
Best regards,
Frank in Minneapolis
_____________________________________________________________
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw @mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
End of TANGO-L Digest - 5 Jan 2000 to 6 Jan 2000 (#2000-5)
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