The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 25 Feb 2000
to 26 Feb 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 03:00:10 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 25 Feb 2000 to 26 Feb 2000 (#2000-54)
There are 11 messages totalling 425 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Prevalence of Psychotherapy in Argentina.
2. '' Charlemos '' Analysis of translation and lyrics.
3. Eduardo Arolas birth anniversary
4. Advantage of not understanding Castilian
5. Guitars
6. Advantage of knowing the tango lyrics
7. Miami Beach Congress - On or Off?
8. understanding tango lyrics (2)
9. A due clarification about Rosi
10. Dancing to tango music
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:01:59 +0100
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Prevalence of Psychotherapy in Argentina.
Original Message-----
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @infovia.com.ar>
Date: Thursday, February 24, 2000 5:18 PM
>Kate wrote:
>
>"I don't agree that the strong sense of family in Lat Am has saved
>individuals in those countries from feelings of isolation. Especially
not
>in Buenos Aires.
>Argentina has many, many psychiatrists and psychologists per capita and
a
>high rate of suicide. And "melancolico", "amargado" and "bajoneado" are
>common characteristics among more than a few porten~os."
>
>So in summary there are reasons different from isolation that might
take a
>person to the the Psychiatric consultation.
>
There was a recent article in 'The economist' which refers to a study
which
says there might be correlation between amount of overall sunlight and
suicide rates. In Europe, sunnier Italy and Greece do better(less
suicide)
than for example, Finland. The situation is quite bad in the canadian
arctic
circle as well. Perhaps some of the southern parts of argentina do not
receive as much sunlight overall...
rajan.
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Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:32:32 +0100
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: '' Charlemos '' Analysis of translation and lyrics.
Original Message-----
From: kata @pitton.com <kata @PITTON.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 24, 2000 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: '' Charlemos '' Analysis of translation and lyrics.
>From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
> >However, I am quite happy sometimes that I do not know spanish
> >so that I do miss some of the lyrics which could perhaps be soppy
> >(or may be this belief is misplaced?).
>
>I delete a lot of the threads about gossip and such things, but as a
>translator and Spanish instructor, I've been following the threads
about
>translating tangos with some interest.
>
>The comment above is a good excuse to ask all of you a question I've
been
>asking myself for a while now:
>For those who don't understand Spanish or who don't understand
Rioplatense
>Spanish, how much do you think you're missing, if you think you're
missing
>anything at all? Are there others who think it's an advantage not to
>really understand the words?
>
>Thanks for indulging my curiosity.
>
Here is my indulgence(and I hope I will go stright to heaven
when the time comes :-):
Despite what I implied previously, after some thought, now that you
have asked the question, I think differently and I guess I do miss
quite a bit from not understanding spanish. If things look soppy to
me when I learn what the lyric actually means, it is most probably
because I am looking at it from a different context, my own, rather
than from the point of view of the singer. So, I agree with Eduardo:
> I think understand the lyrics is always an advantage, a way of better
> understanding that dancing is only the surface of a more complex
culture. A
> discourse about life, values, moral and essentially, love.
> I think that dancers that doesn't know the lyrics are missing
something.
Another interesting point is the 'Blues' question in the P.S. Blues
and Tango seem to share the same black root(somewhere in
"The American Journals" Camus says "blacks alone give this
country a soul". 'This country' being USA). With all the changes
happening in the tango, it may be beginning to lose this. Fecundo
in one of the documentaries says that there used to lot of blacks
in tango before but now perhaps he is the only one left.
Human touch, improvization, lament for the things lost, left behind
home country, common things about which the songs are about
all are perhaps the product of the culture in which AT was born.
Without lyrics one could intepret it with ones own view(after all those
things are universal as well). However, without understanding
the lyrics something signicant in the way of undestanding the original
meaning of the dance and the song is perhaps mostly lost.
rajan.
>Kate
>
>PS
>A "blusero" lawyer in Buenos Aires wrote an article about 2 or 3 years
ago
>comparing Blues & Tango. I think it was published in a Blues newsletter
>from Oregon or Washington State. Does anyone remember seeing it? I'd
be
>interested in hearing your views.
>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:32:12 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Eduardo Arolas birth anniversary
EDUARDO AROLAS - Born in Buenos Aires on February 24th. 1892, son of Henri
Arola and Marguerite Sauris ( Saury), French. He showed artistic interest
since his childhood, mostly painting and music. By age seven he was
obtaining some melodies from a concertina; he and his brother started taking
guitar lessons when he was 10. At age 14 he discovered that the instrument
he liked the most was the bandonesn. At age 17 he published his first tango
" Una noche de garufa".
He performed with his brother as a dzo (group formed by two musicians), then
as a trmo (three musicians), bandonesn, guitar and violin. He formed his
first Orquesta Tmpica in 1912. One of his merits was that he was an
innovator, by 1913 he introduced the violoncello, played by the German
immigrant Fritz, and in 1918 he introduced the piano to replace the guitar.
He decreased the altitud of the music and adopted a beat of 4/8 to replace
the more primitive 2/4.
He wrote many beautiful tangos in a very short life. More than a hundred,
some are very famous, Derecho Viejo, Retintin,
Adiss, !Araca!, La guitarrita, El Marne, Comme il faut, La cachila, Fuegos
artificiales, Papas calientes, and many others including Valses and
Folkloric music.
He died in Paris, on September 29th. 1924. Official diagnosis "pulmonary
tuberculosis". Enrique Cadmcamo knew however that he had died at the Bishat
Hospital, as a result of injuries suffered when Parisian gangsters beat him
up after he had "stolen" a beautiful French lady. We will always have the
doubt as to the real cause of his death. The second possibility sounds more
romantic.
In his short life, 32 years, he had the genious to leave a legacy of the
most beautiful tangos ever written.
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:13:18 -0500
From: Chan Park <Chan.K.Park.1 @GSFC.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Advantage of not understanding Castilian
Kate wrote:
>"For those who don't understand Spanish or who don't understand Rioplatense
>Spanish, how much do you think you're missing, if you think you're missing
>anything at all? Are there others who think it's an advantage not to
>really understand the words?"
Eduardo wrote:
>I think understand the lyrics is always an advantage, a way of better
>understanding that dancing is only the surface of a more complex culture. A
>discourse about life, values, moral and essentially, love.
>
>I think that dancers that doesn't know the lyrics are missing something.
Sounds like it is getting more complicated to dance tango. Especially when=
I have tango music from all around the world. For example, in addition to=
Argentine tango music, I have tango music from Russia, France, and Greece,=
and I am in the process of getting a tango CD from Vietnam. Am I getting=
them because I understand all the languages? Maybe not. I feel like=
dancing tango when I listen to Russian tango music that was recorded in=
France in 1930's. I don't feel I am missing something. I rather feel=
glad that I can get connected to different cultures through music and dance=
=2E
I agree it is advantageous to know all the lyrics. However, I believe=
understanding and appreciating rhythm and melody of tango have been a key=
to attracting people with differences in every aspect and making them tango=
aficionados. =20
Come to think of it, do we love Beatles because we understand all the=
lyrics? Do we get goose bumps when we listen to Pavarotti's songs because=
we are mesmerized by all the lyrics? Do we feel romantic when we listen to=
arias from Carmen because we read all the subtitles? =20
Are there any lectures or workshops specifically designed to teach to=
understand and appreciate tango lyrics?
Tango, Tango, Tango
Chan
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:29:21 +0100
From: Jean-Pierre Jacquet <jpjfilms @CYBERCABLE.FR>
Subject: Guitars
Hi,
I am the proud owner of zillions of tango recordings (or so it seems to
the ones who share my life on a daily basis and have to endure my music
listening habit). Yet I have only one CD with a sole guitarist
performing. I have seen many live tango groups with excellent
guitarists. Yet these combos seem to treat the guitar as part of the
rythm section (` la jazz mainstream pre be-bop tradition), with the
rarest break where the guitarist departs from his metronomical
strumming.
Any recommendation for guitar only interpretations are welcome.
Jean-Pierre Jacquet
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:49:17 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Advantage of knowing the tango lyrics
To many people the introduction to tango music, dance, customs and culture
is a progressive experience.
It is like tasting wine or mate (Argentinean te drunk though a metallic
straw), some ambivalent experience, with more negative than possitive
feelings. To many that will be all; but many others will try again, to
discover that this time it was a different experience, prelude to other
attepts. Now a road of discovery is unveiling; there is a strange feeling, a
pleasurable sensation,almost a need to continue ahead; the heart full of
romance. The music and the dance keep twirling in the head, even at night,
when already in bed, one has to jump out to make sure that the abstract
moves present in our thoughts
can materialize.Then back to bed to try to sleep while we dream, we continue
dancing all night.
Some people will remain there, and this is fine; other will have the need to
know more.
Here in Argentina, where many people know most of the popular tango lyrics
by heart; as soon as the music starts, they start singing in low voice, to
themselves. Other times after dinner, someone might bring out the guitar
and tangos will be sang, by a persone alone or by everybody together. Here
in Mar del Plata singers are in the street or the parks, passersby join them
singing or dancing. They are all over. This can also happen in San Telmo, in
Buenos Aires; and I am sure in other cities as well.
In summary the same way one can extract pleasure from listening to the
music, or dancing to it, one can also feel great knowing the lyrics.
There is no need to feel sad; in my opinion Tango is not sad, Tango is real
life, a serious matter, that requires concentration; but not sadness. Others
might have different opinions.
Most people can remain perfectly satisfied not knowing one word of
Castillian. they can continue dancing the same as always; and this is fine!
Some lyrics were offered for them to know what those words were all about.
There will be some that will learn the language and get to know more than
the dance. This is fine too!
I know I have a great time with my friends listening to tangos, discussing
who is playing, who is singing and what is being sang.
I apologize, to long! so long!
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 07:37:24 PST
From: Erica Sutton <ericaatwork @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Miami Beach Congress - On or Off?
Short question -
I have been very busy and not reading all the posts, so perhaps I missed
something. Is the Miami Beach Congress the first week of May happening or
was it cancelled?
Feel free to reply to me directly - and if it is cancelled... why??
Thanks!
Erica
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Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:42:15 -0500
From: "Schumacher, Liliana" <LSCHUMACHER @IMF.ORG>
Subject: understanding tango lyrics
Chan,
Of course, you can still love tango and feel romantic even if you do
not understand the lyrics. The only point that all Argentinians will make is
that non-Argentinians miss something about tango. And do not think I feel
personally happy about that. Or superior. But what can we do? It is a fact
of life. When I listen to certain tangos, I feel a deep emotional connection
with the tango author that goes beyond the meaning of the words. I could
translate a tango, word by word, to a non-Argentine friend and this would
still not be enough. My closeness with the author, and his suffering, comes
not only from a shared language. It comes, mostly, from a shared proportion
of passion, craziness and rationality built in our bloods. A proportion that
makes each people in the world (including us, Argentinians, of course)
unique. It is this closeness that, unfortunately, you miss.
Liliana
Liliana Schumacher
Monetary and Exchange Affairs Department, HQ 6-600-G
International Monetary Fund
Phone: 202.623.9416 -- Fax: 202.623.6961
E-mail address: LSchumacher @imf.org
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:31:26 PST
From: Alejandro Oyuela <alejandro_oyuela @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: understanding tango lyrics
>Liliana wrote: Of course, you can still love tango and feel romantic even
>if you do not understand the lyrics.
I agree with Liliana and only add that, although we argentinians make a
unique association between certain tangos and their lyrics, there is not a
one-to-one relationship between music and lyrics as it is the case with
other genres. In Italian madrigals, for example, attempts are made to depict
the content of the lyrics with music. In that case, if you can't follow the
lyrics you definitely miss the point. In tango, on the other hand, often the
music is written first, and then someone may write words to go with it, or
the other way around. In other words, music and lyrics eventually come
together and become part of the repertoire. Getting to know the lyrics will
open up a window into our tormented psyche. Keeping that window closed may
be a blessing in disguise...
The music has its own story to tell. Enjoy it!
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Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:43:55 -0500
From: Enrico Massetti <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: A due clarification about Rosi
Dear list,
a gentleman from Miami disclosed on another tango list the fact that
he has been sending messages to Tango-L under the name of Rosi
(Maria Rosa Gonzales).
While I welcome the due clarification on who is who, I need to say again
that the absurd story I sent to the list about Mr. Rosi and a lady named
Gabriela is pure invention and fantasy, and that I could not know at the
time that Rosi could be a man instead of a woman. I don't know anything
about the after-milongas activities of this gentleman, and even if I knew
anything I would never publish it on any list.
I sent the story in an attempt to stop with humor the kind of personal
attacks that have been a plague on this list for years (sort of: if you want
personal attacks, where do you stop?).
I apologize if you did not get the humor in my posting and were instead
annoyed by it.
Ciao,
Enrico
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:32:50 -0600
From: Larry Stevens <tanguero @POBOX.COM>
Subject: Dancing to tango music
This is the first time I've posted to this list, so if I'm not using
the correct address, I trust that someone out there will rush to my
aid. ;-)
Stephen Brown, are you aware of any sentiment in Argentina regarding
the "refusal" (this may be too strong) of many milongueros to dance
to a particular song? I seem to remember running across a reference
to this but cannot remember the song. Also, I've heard there is some
sentiment along the same lines for FEMALE singers. I'm not sure I
understand this. You have such a terrific knowledge of the history of
tango, I thought that if anyone would know, it would be you.
At 1:33 PM -0600 2/24/2000, Stephen P Brown wrote:
>>My original comments follow.
>>
>>--Steve de Tejas
>> I have also heard some people express a preference for dancing to
>> instrumental tangos because they find the lyrics sad or depressing.
--
End of TANGO-L Digest - 25 Feb 2000 to 26 Feb 2000 (#2000-54)
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