The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 11 Feb 2000
to 12 Feb 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 03:00:17 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 11 Feb 2000 to 12 Feb 2000 (#2000-42)
There are 7 messages totalling 685 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Ballroom and Tango .....Long message....but worth reading!
2. Let's not criticize individual dancers
3. neues von saludo!
4. Tango Review
5. Fabian Salas in San Francisco/Chicho
6. Sociology of Milongas in Buenos Aires
7. The language of Argentina- Where the Argentine Tango Originated.
Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to Tango-A rather than to
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:21:51 EST
From: Arthur Greenberg <AHGberg @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Tango .....Long message....but worth reading!
Hi LIsteros:
The only things that International Tango, American Tango and Argentine Tango
have in common is that each of these dances are done by two partners
(usually a man and a woman) standing, and facing each other, on some
reasonably flat surface (most of the time indoors on a wood dance floor) to
music. The music....(see below!)
After the above definition is presented it can be successfully argued that
there is some "relationship but not necessarily a close relationship" of
these three dances to each other! The dissimilarities however, are
significant and they are easily discernible. The absolute raw beginner could
be so uninitiated that they can be convinced that these three dances are
one and the same! They are not! Surprisingly enough I have discovered that
there are certainly some common denominators. Certain skills in each of the
three dances enable some "carry over" but great care must be exercised in
transfer of these skills from one dance to another.
You do not have to be a super experienced and knowledgable dancer to
recognize that the differences between the three dances are significant. If
you are learning (exposed) to the three different dances simultaneously you
can recognize what those differences are. My recommendation is to avoid
learning to dance the three different Tangos, simultaneously. Conflict and
chaos is bound to result. If you attempt to put these three dances
together, to combine them, in any way, shape or form, you are bound to come
up with a "hybrid"; a mutation that might be called by a completely
different name. A "new dance". We are struggling to comprehend and deal
with something of late, called, " Nuevo Tango" Argentine Tango has been
around for 120 years! Check the history books for the actual age and the
slow weaving of this "cultural event" into the lives of the Buenos Aires
Porten~os! The history of Argentine Tango is a fascinating subject even
though some of the history is closer to myth than fact.
When you try to cross a pig with a giraffe (I am not sure why you would
want to in the first place but just for the sake of this discussion I will
hypothetically make this attempt!) firstly you will find that the mating
process does not work. The genetics are so different that it is a biological
impossibility (so far) to successfully procreate. But if you could! If
you, through some new and astonishing miracle, of medical science....
succeed, the product of the union would/could only be referred to as a
"monster". If you destroy all the old and conventionally accepted animals,
and purge all the encyclopedias, as well as the people who remember (and
appreciated) them as they were, sooner or later
( perhaps after hundreds of years) the new monster might become "acceptable"
but only after no one could remember clearly what the old breed of animals
were. At this time in the future the people would testify that the former
conventional pig and the former conventional giraffe were indeed the monsters
of the past. The new monsters ( monsters de jour) are the ones we approve
of and/or accept. (It happens......I will not try to justify it! It just
happens!)
The world is surely a dynamic place and Darwin (Charles) has proved
conclusively that when something in nature challenges an existing
species/creature and threatens its extinction, the creature must mutate to
survive or it goes the way of dinosaurs and disappears (like dinosaurs
whose fossil remains we dig up today and marvel at.) This evolution needs
to happen since our environment is constantly changing. Mutations are a way
of life! The word "inevitable" is appropriate here. You may not be pleased
with the mutated results but it seems to occur without your
consent/approval/knowledge. It usually happens whether you like it or not!
The dinosaurs did not get much of a chance to vote for their perpetuation nor
for their extinction. The meteor hit and it was , Goodbye! Charlie !
Goodbye, dinosaur!
And so, similarly goes the world of dance that we live in! Evolution is
inevitable and it is occurring before our very eyes. The changes are not
necessarily pleasing or good. They are, however, new! New things are taking
the place of the old things constantly, and some of the old things are
changing so much, that you cannot recognize who or what they were, 10, 20,
30 years ago. If you noticed, the computer you have been working on has
become obsolete in only a few short years. The newer and more updated
equipment and programs is mind boggling. (I still have this package of
"carbon paper" from the dark ages! I almost have forgotten what it was used
for! Something about adjusting the strike on ones IBM typewriter to get 12
copies! Was that real? Wow!)
The music for each of the above Tangos is radically different. Try dancing
International Tango to Argentine Tango music. It simply doesn't work! (and
similarly incompatible vice-versa!) The music is also changing! I was told
that when Mr. Piazzola first introduced his modern Tango music, his life was
threatened by traditionalists who did not welcome his new approach to Tango
music.
All International Tango is codified. That means that the molecular
structure of each movement (step pattern) and amalgamation is analyzed and
written down. It is all written down carefully and is in print in over 70
different languages around the world. The direction, the amount of turn, the
timing, the foot work (inside edge of the foot, use of the heel) are all
presented in very specific detail. Diagrams, foot patterns, narrative
describing the various patterns and how they are put together are all there
in the written form. Videos are available, presented by World Class dancers
and teachers. It is taught the same way by teachers all over the world.
International Tango has been analyzed so carefully that there is little to
be left to one"s imagination. You can begin learning in England, take
lessons in Tokyo, travel to Copenhagen or Perth
(Australia) and return to England and never (almost) receive anything but
similar instruction by qualified, accredited, certified and licensed
instructors who teach by the book. The "same book"! There is little or no
conflict. The dancing is standardized and so is the terminology. There is
no discussion as to what to call something. The teachers of this dance
are all taught a very strict system of dancing and the teachers learn to
teach it in a very specific way that will achieve the same standardized
results of the standardized movements (step patterns). There are scores of
"popular variations". It takes place all around the world. The medal system
is used to provide some recognition of the various levels that are achieved.
Bronze, Silver, Gold (the olympics use similar terminology ) that identifies
the achievement level and that level is usually easily determined. The
teachers are taught this system and quite a rigorous test is taken by any
dancer who wishes to gain the status of Teacher. If you have any doubts look
at the wall in their studio to see the officially posted licenses. When an
aspiring teacher passes these tests they receive an accreditation and they
become certified and licensed to teach. The standard of this dance is
unquestioned and the dance is taught the same way in all the civilized
countries of the world. Although it can be (and is) used socially I am
convinced that the highly successful (keen) dancers often enter competitions
and ultimately there is a couple who is chosen Champion of the World (each
year) after rigorous and fierce competitions. Champions of the world must
excel in several other dances ! I only mention these other dances for the
sake of perspective and not for discussion on this Tango Discussion List.
Tango purists should not get excited not say bad things about/to me. These
dances are called,
Slow Foxtrot, Slow Waltz ,Viennese Waltz , Quickstep and of course the
Tango.) There is an entirely separate area or category called "Latin
American". These dances are Paso Doble, Samba, Rumba (danced on the 2 beat),
Jive, and Cha Cha Cha. (Please make note that it is not Cha Cha! It is Cha
Cha Cha!) The beauty of the accomplished dancers might be challenged since
(Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!) What is indisputable is the
astonishingly high level of skill that is displayed by the couples on the
way to the top level and the eventual winning of a World Championship.
Judges of the dancers in competitions are qualified adjudicators who are
familiar with the dancing to the most extraordinary degree. International
Tango as well as all the other dances mentioned above have been changing for
years but under the careful scrutiny of all the professional teachers'
associations. These changes are not radical changes. They do, however,
occur in a very orderly and carefully orchestrated manner. This is "big
business"! The dancing is taught in the schools in many places and it is not
uncommon to discover 10 year old prodigies who have absorbed the dancing and
who display phenomenal skill. My first book on Modern Ballroom Dancing was
by Victor Silvester published in 1936 then more Modern Ballroom Dancing by
the all time authority also in the 1930's. I can assure you that there must
have been a few changes since over 60 or 70 years of dancing. Dynamic! No?
American Tango with it's five step basic (SSQQS) is still alive and well
across the country in all the large Chain Studios. Fred Astaire Studios and
Arthur Murray Studios are still doing business across the country.
In the United States there seems to be some resistance to the international
style but over the last 50 years it is slowly but surely being accepted by
American Dancers who want to learn and participate in the contests. (Where
are you Freddy Rust and Janet Bodle, Americans who went to England and
returned home with a First place in the Latin American Division! Do not ask
me for the year this occurred!)
Argentine Tango must be identified with the name Argentine Tango. It is one
of the most beautiful and challenging art forms ever devised by mankind. It
has developed (not without some difficulty and travail)! It has come a long
way since its beginnings in the early brothels of Buenos Aires. Politically
incorrect a few short years go, today it is of course presented as the
National Dance of Argentina. In Uruguay this dance is called, Tango de la
Plata (sp) . (The Plate River separates Montevideo, Uruguay from Buenos
Aires, Argentina. ) It is better to refer to Tango in Uruguay as indicated.
It is a cultural sensitivity that should be recognized and respected
accordingly.
I will not spend too much time on American Tango but it seems to be somewhere
in between International Tango and Argentine Tango. I have indicated above
that it uses a 5 step basic which is repetitively counted Slow Slow Quick
Quick Slow! When I teach Argentine Tango I refer to it as authentic
Argentine Tango. Am I honestly delivering that product? When I was first
introduced to the Tango I was erroneously informed that all Tango is Argentine
. Believe me! It is not true! Although I am an American and a (former)
ballroom dancer, I have checked out the Buenos Aires Milonga scene and have
discovered that I can blend into a milonga dance scene as long as I do not
try to converse.......I can speak only a few words in Spanish. (I also
discovered that Argentine Spanish is unique to Argentina!) I have been
identified by the natives as a true Tanguero, a title I cherish dearly! I
have worked very hard and long to acquire that title! The Argentinians here
in Florida have changed my name to "Arturo!" I had no choice! It wasn't my
idea. So be it!
Teaching anything to people who want to learn in the United States makes you
a Teacher. Although there are many areas of expertise that require being
licensed in the United States, Argentine Tango is not one of them. The fact
that you teach Argentine Tango makes people refer to you as a teacher. I am
careful not to represent that I am a Tango Master Teacher, a Maestro. I have
only met a few Tango Master Teachers. They usually have 10, 20 or 30 or more
years of experience dancing and teaching Argentine Tango. I have witnessed
first hand some excellent teaching of this Art Form. Unfortunately, I have
also witnessed first hand some miserable, totally unacceptable teaching, from
unexpected sources. It is my policy to discuss only good teaching by good
teachers on this public discussion list. It is my sincere belief that
derogatory remarks some listeros make about teachers who lack the skills of
both dancing and teaching should not occur on this discussion list! Let
nature take its course. They will either get better or go the way of
extinction like the poor dinosaurs.
Argentine Tango has many forms as well as many different ways to teach it.
I have read no books yet written in the English language, that I could feel
comfortable about presenting to my students. If I don't find one soon enough
I might have to embark on the book writing process myself. There are many
rules and guidelines that have been established in the
teaching of Argentine Tango. they come through common usage! Most of the
purists will flame me for saying that there are many things that can be
standardized both in name and form. Some attempts at standarization both
of the dancing and the terminology have already taken place. What has
already been achieved has happened without anyone consulting you. Like it or
not, time marches on and so do the inevitable achievements at standardization
of the teaching and the dancing but also the terminology. The days of
referring to certain elements of Argentine Tango as "the whatchamacallit or
the thingamagig" are coming to an end. There are definite elements with
leads that can be demonstrated and taught to aspiring Tangueros. The days of
the mysterious and secretive Tango are slowly but surely coming to an end.
Argentine Tango is being taught around the world in many countries by
excellent Argentine Tango teachers many of whom are not from Argentina. If
you cannot afford to go to Argentina and experience the thrill of the dance
as well as the culture that surrounds this beautiful art form, look up the
name of your local teachers and make inquiries of the availability of
instruction in Argentine Tango. You might be very surprised to hear the
names of Victor, Daniel, Michael, Sally, Rebecca, Angel, Ron, Diane, Fran,
Tioma, Alfred etc there are undoubtedly scores of American Ballroom Dancers
and teachers across the country who are quite capable of teaching you to
dance the Argentine Tango. But let us not discriminate. If you have an
Argentine Tango Teacher who is Argentine, or Dutch, German, Canadian,
French, Russian, Chinese, Korean, Japanese and from all other countries and
states......tell us his/'her name and why you like them, objectively or for
your own personl reasons, write and tell us their name. For those whose
names do not appear on this quick list please don't feel personally offended.
In fact! While we are on the subject why don't you write into this list and
provide the name of your favorite local teacher(s) and tell us whether they
are "ballroom dancers" who do other dances. Tell us what you like about
them. No negatives! Only positives. It would be nice to know the names of
the teachers who are teaching Argentine Tango.... who is teaching what and to
whom and that your are pleased with their teaching. Please ! On bended
knees. Do not say, "I know a teacher who is awful!" and proceed to say
derogatory things about them. Please be positive and state only positive
things. Derogatory assessments are not the purpose of this list. If you have
nothing good to say don't say it.......especially in public.
Regards,
Arturo
AHGberg @aol.com
West Palm Beach, Florida, USA
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 04:58:21 -0800
From: Steve Hoffman <DrSteveH @IBM.NET>
Subject: Let's not criticize individual dancers
This has come up before (if these kinds of values even mean anything any
more): the appropriateness of using this forum to critique, or criticize,
individual dancers - e.g., this behavior of comparing/criticizing Salas or
Gavito for their passion, or lack of it, ad nauseum. As Manuel has just
said: " I often see disparaging remarks made in this forum about the skill
and style of excellent
professional dancers by people who can barely get around the dance floor
and should know better."
Obviously, this a matter of opinion and of degree, but I think many people
would agree that is distasteful, unkind, unfair, and taking cheap shots, to
haughtily critique the character implications of the dancing styles of some
of the worlds best tango dancers. What do these people know or think that
allows them the liberty of publicly dissecting the motives or psychology of
these individuals, behind their backs?
Manuel said: "It is preposterous for somebody to determine from outside
what level
of passion for tango Fabian or his partner might feel while they dance.
Passion can be expressed in many ways, some of these might not be
appreciated by certain onlookers.." I agree.
There are many useful and fair things that can be transmitted to the group
about the *teaching style* or student-teacher interaction with a given
professional dancer/teacher - but why don't we leave the holier-than-thou
psuchological autopsies.. out? Why don't we avoid toying with people's
reputations, as if we *knew* something about them? There are many
wonderful contributions that be made by the readership, in many facinating
areas, without resorting to gossip, inuendo, and conjecture about the
motives, feelings, relationships, and character of professional *figures*
that we don't really know anything about.
Respectfully,
Steve Hoffman
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:40:17 +0100
From: Mark von Rahden <mark @FARM.DE>
Subject: neues von saludo!
hola listees!
http://www.saludo.de/ ist seit heute
in neuem look+feel und mit
erweiterter datenbankanbindung im netz.
bitte prueft die eingetragenen termine
und schreibt uns eure korrekturen.
auf der homepage gibt es ein formular
welches fuer neue termine + adressen
benutzt werden kann, die animation
unten benoetigt flash.
today we relaunched http://www.saludo.de /
in a new look+feel and with extended database
capabilities.
please checks the entered dates and write us
your corrections.
new entries can be made using the form on
the first page and below the events-calendar,
the animation at the page-bottom requires flash.
saludos, mark
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:03:29 EST
From: Victor Crichton <victor_vsc @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Review
I have read with great interest the various postings lately regarding the
appreciation and lack of for particular professional dancers.
Before I fell in love with Argentine Tango, I was a long time professional
ballroom dancer, competitor, and teacher. I won't bore you with my views on
this list's member's right and wrong interpretations of ballroom dancing's
values and vices. However, I would like to say that one of the things that
I disliked about the ballroom world was what seemed to be a necessity to
favor particular couples at the expense of others.
One of the many things that enamoured me to the world of Argentine Tango was
that it was unstandardized and that though each couple could be very
different than the others, I didn't feel that I had to like one and thus
dislike the others.
I liked that I could see Tango Argentino or Forever Tango and see many
styles of Tango without having to judge which one was best.
I don't know why it is currently 'Fabian' vs 'Gavito'. This is absurd! Why
not just appreciate their differences and love them both! I don't claim to
be close personal friends with either but I have had lessons from both of
them and have shared meals and conversation. I can tell you that each of
them strongly believes in the way that he dances but neither of them would
make derogatory statements of someone else's style, so why would you?
On another but slightly connected subject. It has recently been stated that
there is a great benefit from learning with just one teacher. I suppose
there may be some merit to this point of view, but I find it very
restrictive. As I said, I have had lessons from both Fabian and Gavito and
I would not want to give back what I have learned from either one. In fact,
I have learned from many teachers and I have received something of value
from almost all of them.
My feeling is that if you only learn from one instructor, then you only hear
one point of view and one way of doing things. Most often you end up
looking like an imitation of this teacher. By learning from many teachers
you allow yourself to take a little from here and a little from there and
eventually you can develop a style of your own.
One trick is to not get caught up with apparent inconsistencies. Who cares
if one teacher says walk toes first and the other says heels first? I'll
bet they both walk gracefully and that is what you should strive for.
Trying walking heels first then try toes first. Maybe you'll find that in
some steps or situations you prefer one and other times you prefer the
other. Embrace the differences don't judge them.
On yet another subject. Just because someone is a great stage dancer
doesn't mean that he is not also a great social dancer or a great teacher.
I can site many examples, Gavito, Fernanda and Guillermo, Daniela and
Armando, Fabian, Cecilia, Chicho, Gustavo, Zotto and Lorena etc etc. They
are all fabulous performers but when they teach, they don't try to get you
to do lightning fast ganchos or flashy lifts and jumps. They will all teach
you good, fundamental, social, improvisational, Tango!
Another couple that is less famous on the teaching tours but that I highly
recommend is Jorge Torres and Karina Piazza from Forever Tango. Like the
other couples that I mentioned they are incredible performers and posses a
true gift to be able to pass on to students the feel and substance of Tango.
They are the other couple that was singled out in the recent review in
Washington:
"Two pairs stood out. Jorge Torres and Karina Piazza enjoyed an unbroken
rhythm and flow together, a taffylike release and rebound that made their
dancing seamless, elegant and riveting. By contrast, Carlos Gavito, a mature
gentleman with a quiet air of authority, and the somber beauty Marcela Duran
displayed a slow, intimate burn."
When you get the opportunity, I would highly recommend that you study with
any of these teachers. Don't let someone else tell you what the 'true'
Tango is, learn, dance and discover it for yourself!
Victor Crichton
Tampa Bay, Florida
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:53:19 -0500
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Fabian Salas in San Francisco/Chicho
Hi all,
There seems to be some misunderstanding with
respect to what I wrote in this thread about Chico's
dancing. Below is an exchange which hopefully
corrects this.
thanks,
rajan.
Original Message-----
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @erols.com>
To: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @emc.com>
Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 9:57 PM
>Dear Rajan,
>
>I do not think that to be an extension of your male partner is
>necessarily bad. Tango is for two, but looks the best (and feels the
>best) when two become one during THEIR dance. My interpretation of
>Silvia's posting was just that. If you feel you will clarify a
>misunderstanding, please feel free to post all of this.
>It sounds like people on tango-l get lost in explanations and
>interpretations of "passion", or other qualities of a "dancer" as if
>these guys are not just good dancers, but also are politicians of
TANGO!
>When we dance good tango we feel much more like lovers than
politicians,
>true?
>Eugenia
>
>Natarajan Balasundara wrote:
>>
>> Hi Eugenia,
>>
>> Would it be possible to post this reponse to Tango-L
>> so that there is no misunderstanding of what I intended
>> to say?
>>
>> Thanks!
>> rajan.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @emc.com>
>> To: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @erols.com>
>> Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 12:53 AM
>> Subject: Re: Fabian Salas in San Francisco
>>
>> >He is a fabulous dancer! My only comment was, that it need
>> >not be his partners deficiency that she dances the way she
>> >does(which the post implied by saying that she is an extension of
>> >him and has no indiviuality). Actually the whole point of dancing
>> >at its best is for two people to dance as one -- it need not be
>> >followers "short comming" that she dances as an extension
>> >of him.
>> >
>> >rajan.
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @erols.com>
>> >To: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @emc.com>
>> >Date: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 9:05 PM
>> >Subject: Re: Fabian Salas in San Francisco
>> >
>> >
>> >>Most of us can only wish to dance with the partners like Chicho! He
>> >moves
>> >>with the music, in tune with his partner, giving her space and time
to
>> >do
>> >>what she can or wants to do. His movement, whatever tempo he feels
at
>> >the
>> >>moment, is fabulous! I am curious to know who do you think is a
good
>> >dancer
>> >>who knows how to move?
>> >>Eugenia
>> >>
>> >>Natarajan Balasundara wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: Silvia Borelli <silvia.borelli @operamail.com>
>> >>> Date: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 2:38 PM
>> >>>
>> >>> >>===== Original Message From P. =====
>> >>> >>Recently, I have seen Chicho (the shooting star of Cosmotango)
in
>> >>> >>Paris, dancing with a single partner (I don't know her and for
>> >sure,
>> >>> >>nobody else invited her ...). I hardly trusted my eyes, it is
>> >>> >>difficult to describe. It was just perfect, flawless and
>> enormously
>> >>> >>fast. And by and large I even liked his interpretation of the
>> >music.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>However, what I felt was that his partner (a remarkable dancer)
>> was
>> >so
>> >>> >>busy that it really was one-way communication: She executes his
>> >lead,
>> >>> >>period. Complete submission. Her body extends his, this is all
she
>> >>> >>cares about. No room for her personality.
>> >>>
>> >>> [ stuff deleted ]
>> >>>
>> >>> > She was perfect technically always. She's been
>> >>> >working very hard for years to improve herself and to grow as a
>> >>> performer, and
>> >>> >continues to do so now. So, give the young kids some time to
grow.
>> >>> We'll see
>> >>> >how they develop in the next 5 to 10 years.
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>> But, is it true or not that he does not give enough
>> >>> "space" (in terms of time) for her to express herself?
>> >>> The moves seem so quick -- as far as I have seen--
>> >>> there seems to be only room for reflex action...May
>> >>> be in a few years Chico himself could(if he wanted to--
>> >>> but may be things are perfect as is) allow his partner
>> >>> to express herself more.
>> >>>
>> >>> rajan.
>> >>>
>> >>> >Silvia.
>> >>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:04:47 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Sociology of Milongas in Buenos Aires
Steve Hoffman wrote recently in reference to the fact that at Milongas in
Argentina
women seem to seat appart from men and that there is very little social
interaction
(conversation or otherwise) between them.
I agree that Steve's perceptions of the dynamic of some Milongas in Buenos
Aires, he is correct.There is a sociological reason for this structure,
reason
that usually escapes the understanding of the foreign visitor.
Many beautiful ladies come all the way from the USA,with the expectation of
going to the milongas and dancing all nigt long.
They dress very well, are great looking, excellent dancers, come to the
milonga and nobody asks them to dance.
Why? they discover the reason 7 to 10 days later; now that they finally get
asked to dance a lot, it is almost time to go back home.What a shame!(some c
hange airplain tickets to stay longer).
The reason is that Argentine men consider a terrible lack of respect to
"interfere" in any way with an ongoing relationship between a man and a
woman.So if a lady comes from the street with another man sits with him, or
else, she talks with any one for more than the absolutely necessary; other
men interpret that there is some kind of rapport developing between them and
they will not talk or ask the lady to dance.
So the women that wish to dance come by themselves or with other women and
sit appart from men.
How is a relationship started then? Should a personal interest appear, they
look for each others' eyes to dance to several tandas; they talk in between
tangos, he asks permission to walk her home after the dance ends.He asks for
another meeting later on on another day.
Some time ago and still is the custom in some places, the man went to the
lady's table to ask her for a dance. Frequently she refused; this had two
immediate consequences, first, the man felt rejected and somewhat
humiliated, second the lady could not accept other requests during that
tanda at the same time as the man's friends would not ask her to dance in
solidarity.
To avoid this problem the"stare and nod" invitation was created.
When I was a teenager the custom was for us to go dancing together in a
group formed by girls and boys.Group integrated by brother, sister, cousins,
friends, neighbors and... an older person; my grandmother in our case.The
old ladies would sit and socialize in a corner of the club while we danced
all night long. At the end of the party it was perfectly correct for some of
the "outside boys" to join us and scort some of the girls home as we all
walked more or less together.
In summary, for an Argentinean man to go after a woman that is with another
man is taboo, unmanly, plain abominable.
This originated the sociology of our Milongas and no sexual taboos as
suggested. Once you are interested in dating a lady, you both go dancing to
other milongas for couples or else you sit together and dance with each
other all night long.
I could talk for a long time about this and other customs but this is long
enough and I am affraid I will end up boring you.
Sergio - Mar del Plata - Argentina
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:01:55 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: The language of Argentina- Where the Argentine Tango Originated.
Arturo Greenberg Stated:
" I also discovered that Argentine Spanish is unique to Argentina."
Arturo's discorery is correct, but to some extent only.
Spain has four main languages, one of them Castilian (Castellano) is the
oficial
language of Spain and also of all the American Countries, from Mexico to
Argentina
with exception of Brasil (Portuguese) and some of the Central American
Island, British
Honduras (Belize) and the three Guayanas in South America.
The Castillian language is *one*, unique, the same for all the above
mentioned countries and other
areas in the world. Together with English and French, one of the languages
used by a large diversity
of people. People of Spain, Mexico, Ceuta (North Africa), Cuba, Argentina
use exactly the same
language. Some colloquial variations of this language are in use in
Argentina and not in other countries.
It has to do with the use of an archaic form :"voceo". The use of Vos
instead of Tu (you),
familiar form of the language.
Example: You are - Tu eres - Vos sos
Come - ven - veni
The language has many words meaning the same, some of these words could be
used in one coutry
while another meaning the same is being used in another;but all Castillian
speaking people understand
all those words or at least, most of them.
Example: pig, pork, swine, etc. - cerdo, puerco, marrano, chancho,
porcino, etc. One country might use
pig while another uses swine, but the people of both countries know the
meaning of both words.
Another difference could be the entonation. Something like the differences
of the American English
in Boston, Texas, New York, etc.
Another matter: Tango originated in two countries that are very similar
Argentina and Uruguay.
These countries are separated by the widest river in the world, the Rio de
la Plata. Anything that
belongs to both countries is referred as Rio Platense. This means belonging
to the area of this river.
So properly we could say that Tango is Rioplatense. The best known tango in
the world is probably
La Cumparsita; it was written by an Uruguayan.
May you have many great Rioplatense Tangos.
Sergio - Mar del Plata - Argentina
End of TANGO-L Digest - 11 Feb 2000 to 12 Feb 2000 (#2000-42)
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