The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 10 Feb 2000
to 11 Feb 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 03:00:02 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 10 Feb 2000 to 11 Feb 2000 (#2000-41)
There are 8 messages totalling 339 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Ballroom and Tango (4)
2. Fabian Salas in San Francisco
3. Comparisons (was Re: Fabian Salas in San Francisco)
4. Emotions in dancing (was Fabian Salas)
5. Tango Review
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:14:29 -0500
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Ballroom and Tango
Juan Rando from Perth, wrote:
>And so I set off to discover Tango, first in Argentina, California, and
>finally in Miami for a total of 16 months. Through this period of time,
>I came across many instructors. The one frustration I had, was the
>constant feeling that many of the leads that were being taught, and
>other techniques were being 'made up' so to speak. They were crude,
>sometimes brutal, and often awkward. Furthermore, various patterns of
>steps seemed to have no real lead other than practising with a partner
>you knew until you knew it by rote. I found it frustrating,
>particularly as you move through different parts of world, and everyone
>has their own steps, with no common base to lead from.
First question: How can someone manage to run into bad instructors.
People have been dancing Argentine Tango for more of 100 years.
The dance is composed of multiple units that can be combined in an infinite
wayto create each tango. Each one of those units has a very specific lead.
Lead
thatwas created over 100 years ago. A good dancer leads lightly but clearly.
The teaching technique in central and South America involves :
Musicality, feeling and interpretation by following the instructor as he
moves.
Showing of the figure.
Doing exercices to adquire the necessary skills to perform the figure.
Doing the figure while you are being corrected as necessary. There is little
or no counting.
This develops a student able to dance with selfconfidence, with the right
demeanor andintense knowledge of the spirit of the dance.
>Where I found the most satisfaction was amongst those instructors who
>were professional ballroom dancers who had turned to Argentine Tango.
>Their perceptions of leading and following made so much more sense, and
>always worked more gracefully. Miami proved to be a great learning
>environment, as I was exposed to the musicality expressed by the
>Argentinians who taught locally, but had the technicality that is
>offered by a 100 years of ballroom development throughout the world.
I am a ballroom dancer as well as a tango dancer.
I do not criticize Ballroom dance or its instructors; furthermore I love
ballroom dancing and recognize the importance of its instructors to spread
the
knowledge of this beautiful art. I just want to point to some differences.
Ballroom dancing is taught by breacking down moves and steps in an effort to
mime or reproduce moves that were born in a foreign culture.(Latin Motion,
typical example)
There is emphasis in counting moves or steps. The frequent result is a
student
obsessed with counting, performing movements in a rather mechanical way.
The final product somewhat artifitial,aimed at competition in North America
or Europe.
This end result could, at times, beso farremoved from the original product,
that new dances are created, examples areAmerican and International Tango,
International Style Rumba, Cha-Cha, Waltz,etc.I find that knowing ballroom,
at least at the beginning, could be detrimental to the A.T. student, as
this dance
is so different in many ways from all the other. Later on could become a
great plus.
You will, sooner or later, have to decide, what way you wish to dance like.
Some of the dances in the above modified way , such as American Tango, are
very beautiful.
But is something totally different.
Tangazos, Sergio - Mar del Plata - Argentina
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:26:50 +0800
From: Juan Rando <juan @STARWON.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Tango
Sergio Suppa wrote:
Thanks for your comments Sergio. I agree in principle with most of what you
say. I would urge you to read the commests I made more in the spirit of what
was intended however.
First question: How can someone manage to run into bad instructors.
Where exactly did I mention "Bad Instructors" in my text? I said I found
frustration, but I would hardly call some of my instructors BAD. Particularly
as to this day I still respect every piece of knowledge I've gained from them.
> People have been dancing Argentine Tango for more of 100 years.
> The dance is composed of multiple units that can be combined in an infinite
> wayto create each tango. Each one of those units has a very specific lead.
> Lead
> thatwas created over 100 years ago. A good dancer leads lightly but clearly.
> The teaching technique in central and South America involves :
> Musicality, feeling and interpretation by following the instructor as he
> moves.
> Showing of the figure.
> Doing exercices to adquire the necessary skills to perform the figure.
> Doing the figure while you are being corrected as necessary. There is little
> or no counting.
> This develops a student able to dance with selfconfidence, with the right
> demeanor andintense knowledge of the spirit of the dance.
>
Tango, particularly in the complex forms of today, bear little resemblence to
the simple steps danced at the beginning of the century. Furthermore, its
development has been interrupted for significant periods of times. There is no
comparison. Aside from all this it, developed in a significantly smaller
environment.
> I am a ballroom dancer as well as a tango dancer.
> I do not criticize Ballroom dance or its instructors; furthermore I love
> ballroom dancing and recognize the importance of its instructors to spread
> the
> knowledge of this beautiful art. I just want to point to some differences.
> Ballroom dancing is taught by breacking down moves and steps in an effort to
> mime or reproduce moves that were born in a foreign culture.(Latin Motion,
> typical example)
> There is emphasis in counting moves or steps. The frequent result is a
> student
> obsessed with counting, performing movements in a rather mechanical way.
> The final product somewhat artifitial,aimed at competition in North America
> or Europe.
> This end result could, at times, beso farremoved from the original product,
> that new dances are created, examples areAmerican and International Tango,
> International Style Rumba, Cha-Cha, Waltz,etc.I find that knowing ballroom,
> at least at the beginning, could be detrimental to the A.T. student, as
> this dance
> is so different in many ways from all the other. Later on could become a
> great plus.
>
I think you comments here leave the subject somewhat. I myself find many faults
in Ballroom dancing, that's why I no longer dance these styles, for precisely
the reasons you give. However, I fear too many people are tempted to "throw the
baby out with the bathwater" so to speak.
Don't forget, that the whole message being lost here is that I was an outsider
in search of results. I am simply expressing the idea that I find the technique
expressed by the so-called New Tango more graceful, and more logical.
> You will, sooner or later, have to decide, what way you wish to dance like.
> Some of the dances in the above modified way , such as American Tango, are
> very beautiful.
> But is something totally different.
>
> Tangazos, Sergio - Mar del Plata - Argentina
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:47:08 -0500
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Tango
Original Message-----
From: Juan Rando <juan @starwon.com.au>
Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 11:32 AM
.
>
>Don't forget, that the whole message being lost here is that I was an
outsider
>in search of results. I am simply expressing the idea that I find the
technique
>expressed by the so-called New Tango more graceful, and more logical.
>
To me, this seems like a question of which came first : "sentences" or
"grammar".
My understanding is that the "sentences" are the old tango. What
new tango tries to capture is to break the series of steps of old tango
into fewer pieces and to deconstruct many large pieces of old tango
(which seem choreographed) with these building blocks(eg: Fabian
decomposing all steps into front,side,back, I think) so that it captures
the essence of old tango while making it possible to construct newer
forms and to make it possible for tango evolve *off-stage*. The reason
National Geographic documentary's original messgae(tango is dieing)
is itself dead is precisely because new tango has made this possible.
rajan.
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:13:16 +0100
From: Sabine Fuchs <Sabine.Fuchs @SBG.AC.AT>
Subject: Fabian Salas in San Francisco
(Stuff deleted)
>Maybe all you saw was two friends, who rarely work together, having fun,
>improvising, just as they used to doing it at Cochabamba 444. Maybe they don't
>feel like faking some intimacy that does not exist, even if it's an
>exhibition.
>Maybe, just maybe, you saw something genuine...
(Snip)
Silvia, I couldn't have said it better, although I didn't see that special
performance! I never cared much for all that fake emotions in Tango, always
liked it for the technical complexity of the dance and the beauty of the
music. There is nothing to say against real emotions, if you have a dancing
partner with whom you are in love, but I think if you don't feel it, you
shouldn't fake it, nor should you claim it from others.
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:59:53 -0500
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Tango
I wrote:
>(which seem choreographed) with these building blocks(eg: Fabian
"Fabian" should read "Fabian Salas"
rajan.
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:39:47 -0000
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Comparisons (was Re: Fabian Salas in San Francisco)
Personally, I find it odd that someone would feel the need to bring Gavito
into the picture to buttress a criticism of Fabian Salas dancing based on a
perception that insufficient passion was demonstrated by one vs. the other.
What I think is that these types of arguments are a lose-lose proposition
for everybody.
What is one going to say in defense of Fabian, that Gavito is fake? Of
course, that is preposterous. Each must be appreciated and admired for what
they are. In this case, Gavito is a consumate tango dance performer as well
as a genuine salon dancer. I've also heard many praises about his teaching
although I have not had the opportunity to experience this first hand.
I am not sure but I think that Fabian Salas has not performed in as many
tango shows as Gavito but he is also a consumate dancer and teacher of
tango. It is preposterous for somebody to determine from outside what level
of passion for tango Fabian or his partner might feel while they dance.
Passion can be expressed in many ways, some of these might not be
appreciated by certain onlookers.
I believe that before I could publicly criticize Fabian's (or Gavito's or
any number of professionals) dancing, I should have at least enough dancing
skill myself to know what I was talking about. I often see disparaging
remarks made in this forum about the skill and style of excellent
professional dancers by people who can barely get around the dance floor and
should know better.
Of course, everybody is entitled to their opinion and to their predilection.
I don't propose to silence any opinions but I think that it would be much
better to show appreciation and respect of one's heros without making otiose
and provocative comparisons. In this case I think that Gavito *and* Fabian
Salas are excellent professional dancers and teachers. They have different
styles but they both dance tango, the real thing, and that is
unquestionable. They are also quite good at it and far above the level of
the vast majority of tango dancers.
Wonderful tangos to all,
Manuel
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:45:02 EST
From: Erik Grandmass <MassettiE @AOL.COM>
Subject: Emotions in dancing (was Fabian Salas)
Sabine:
>There is nothing to say against real emotions, if you have a dancing
>partner with whom you are in love, but I think if you don't feel it, you
>shouldn't fake it, nor should you claim it from others.
Sabine,
Are you saying that you never feel anything with your dancing partner, unless
the two of you are in love? Sometimes I feel beauty, or joy, sometimes I
even have a "WOW" dance with somebody else other than my partner.
I recently started "dancing" grapewines (I have been "doing" them for years),
and one of my usual partners told me in the middle of a dance, the first time
ever she has broken the don't speak during a dance rule, "it's beautiful", it
was a feeling, the same feeling I had in that moment, and we are not in love
with each other.
I am sure you sometimes had some other emotions when dancing! There isn't
just "Passion"!!
Gutten tangos,
Erik Grandmass
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:39:15 -0500
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Tango Review
Hello List,
Forever Tango is playing in Washington DC this week. Here is the address of
the Washington Post review, which appeared in the Thursday, Feb 10 edition,
Stlye section as "Tango Without The Heat:"
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/feed/a34378-2000feb10.htm
I don't know the expertise of the reviewer, but I doubt it is tango.
Nevertheless, she recognized the extraordinary dancing of Carlos Gavito as
worth noting. Guess you don't have to be an expert to recognize excellence.
Many happy dances to you,
Melinda
End of TANGO-L Digest - 10 Feb 2000 to 11 Feb 2000 (#2000-41)
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