The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 5 Feb 2000
to 6 Feb 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 03:00:03 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 5 Feb 2000 to 6 Feb 2000 (#2000-36)
There are 5 messages totalling 354 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Men asking-Women asking
2. Tango Orchestra URGENTLY needed for the "Carnevale di Venezia"
3. Women asking men to dance
4. Well! Of all the nerve!
5. Tanda Thread
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Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:00:08 -0500
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Men asking-Women asking
Dear Brook and List,
Since I had opened a discussion on this topic myself a few months ago, I
thought I would see what others have to say. But Brook has not gotten an
answer to her original question, so I'll put in my 2 cents.
I think it is very, very RUDE for a woman (or man) to approach a couple who
are conversing, and interrupt them to ask one for a dance. Some time ago I
invited a well known tango teacher from out of town to be my guest at a
milonga. I practically had to beat off the other women with a stick in
order to get a few dances myself with my friend! He is a polite man and was
gracious with the ladies who asked, but I am still mad about not having the
last dance because some other woman waylaid him as he was walking towards
me.....
When I was a beginner, I was just frantic to dance every dance. I asked all
the men, usually with success. As I became more experienced, I became less
frantic and more willing to wait for what I want. I am blessed now to have
a partner who is also my sweetheart. Occasionally we will be deep into a
romantic conversation and someone will interrupt to ask one of us to dance.
These people need to sharpen their social skills! We are clearly a couple
out dancing on a Saturday night date. If we want to dance with others, we
will use our body language to show we are available. If this is happening
to us, and we are not especially wonderful dancers, then think how awkward
it is for the really good dancers who are trying to have a conversation, or
start something romantic and are never given a moment to do it.
I'm comfortable asking a man to dance, (I'm even comfortable being refused)
but I believe we all need to exercise some judgement and use common social
skills. After all, isn't that what high school was for?
Melinda
Original Message -----
From: for Brook Tankle <LV2TNGO @AOL.COM>
To: <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 5:27 PM
Subject: Men asking-Women asking
> Dear list, I humbly take some responsibility for starting this discussion
re:
> women asking men to dance although my original point was women asking men
to
> dance when they were standing with or in discussion with another women. No
> one so far has commented on this situation and I am interested in your
> experience..........
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 10:39:00 EST
From: Mirella Massetti <MMirella @AOL.COM>
Subject: Tango Orchestra URGENTLY needed for the "Carnevale di Venezia"
Dear tangueros/as,
I received the attached request from the Artistic Director of the "Carnevale
di Venezia" (in Italian).
He is organizing a big tango event with live music in Piazza San Marco for
Saturday March 4, and... he lost his Orchestra from Argentina.
If you have any replacement to suggest/recommend write directly to Mr.
Alessandro Bressanello at brexi @tin.it. Piazza San Marco, if you have not
been there, is a very large piazza, the group must be able to handle it (ok,
ok, I imagine amplifiers will be provided...). It must also be very good, a=
s
we Italian do not compromise on quality, specially for something as
important as the "Carnevale di Venezia".
Ciao,
Enrico
Original Message -----
From: Alessandro Bressanello <brexi @tin.it>
To: <E_Mass @msn.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 7:43 AM
> :Salve
> :sono il direttore artistico del carnevale di Venezia, per sabato 4 marzo=20
sto
> :organizzando una grande serata di tango in Piazza San marco, doveva venir=
e
> :una orchestra argentina pagata dal loro ministero ma........=E8 saltato
> tutto.
> :Sto quindi cercando una buona orchestra che sappia tenere una piazza come
> :Piazza San Marco e far ballare la gente ( vorrei avvertire e convocare
> :tutti i tangueros d'europa )
> :mi spate dare qualche indicazione a riguardo, si puo inviare tramite voi
> : mailling list) un comunicato a riguardo
> :grazie gia da ora
> :saluti
> :Alessandro Bressanello
> :
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:49:15 +0100
From: Dan Wajnman <dwajn @IMAGE.DK>
Subject: Women asking men to dance
Dear List,
I started this discussion because I have seen lonely ladies sitting =
around at milongas looking sad, wanting to dance and not daring to ask a =
man. Somehow here in Copenhagen there is often a surplus of ladies.
Sometimes there isn't, but men choose to dance and rest as their please =
and women cannot.
This is, seems to me, the problem at hand, not changing of vital =
traditions, obliterating differences between the sexes and taking all =
the charm out of tango.
The "package deal" of tradition cannot be used because it has been =
sadly depleted over time.
The "difference between sexes" remains, kindness and social grace is =
gone.
If only all man shared the attitude of Christopher Joens (and some other =
Listeros),
here is his letter.....
>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:16:20 -0600
>From: Chris Joens <chris @XIT.NET>
>Subject: women asking men to dance
>
> I have never turned down a lady who asks me to dance , and I
>never will . I consider it a compliment . I say that the women should =
be
>free to ask anyone to dance if they are so inclined . And any man who
>would be offended by a lady asking him to dance [or refuse her ] should
>not consider himself a gentleman. When men turn down an invitation to
>dance that makes some women reluctant to ask people to dance in the
>future and as a result there may be someone that would like to dance
>with me but I may never know it.
>Christopher Joens=20
....the problem would not exist.
The gentlemanly attitude used to compensate for "sex differences" in =
those older and gentler times (I still remember them!).
If a single girl, not very beautiful or young, or even a good dancer, =
would be hibernating in a corner, some gentleman would notice her and =
ask her to dance. =20
Manuel, you wonder why Chris thinks that a gentlemen does not refuse a =
lady.
Your discussion is quoted below:
Chris:
>>And any man who
>> would be offended by a lady asking him to dance [or refuse her ] =
should
>> not consider himself a gentleman.
Manuel:
>Here I disagree completely. Perhaps being offended by somebody asking =
one to
>dance is a little uncalled for, but it is certainly with one's =
prerogative
>and certainly one's feelings need not be denied. But more importantly, =
why
>should anybody (man or woman) be obligated to dance with anybody who =
asked?
>There are many legitimate and valid reasons to decline such offers and =
maybe
>just not wanting to is quite OK.
Manuel, never refusing a lady is (in my old fashioned opinion) essential =
in a gentlemen, and it is a gentleman's burden, part of the price he has =
paid for the title.
Whenever this is not generally accepted, the package deal of tradition =
falls apart and looses the legs to dance on.
As for women rejecting us, I agree with you completely, they should not. =
That is my selfish reason to get them to do the asking in hope that it =
will turn them around.
All this also applies to the sentiments offered by Brook Tancke:
>Briefly=20
>stated: Men and Women are different, no big revelation! Men have
>traditionally had their way of asking and women have a subtle way of =
asking.
>It works for me. Ciao, Brook
Of course it works for you Brook, and for me, but maybe not for that =
shy, bored girl in the corner.
Carol Shepherd wrote:
>Under the logic of making things equal, women could just as easily lead
>and men follow, lead them to the floor and start the dance...but that's
>not the way it is!...vive la difference. In other dances I have
>learned the lead, (switching back and forth is very popular now in
>Detroit with the lindy hoppers in the swing clubs), but in tango I =
would
>only dance follow, to me the dance is very sexual and based in
>gender...I also don't ask men out on dates.
I fail to understand why a woman cannot ask a man to dance and than let =
him "lead" the tango? Too complicated? Some girls ask men out on =
dates and some don't, few today accept a complete male domination in =
matters romantic and sexual on the grounds that eventually he "lands on =
top anyway"? Well, let us not enter that subject.=20
Again, this discussion is about women who may need a change in tango =
habits and attitudes.
Well, ladies, do you? And if so, where are you?
Yours,
Dan Wajnman, Copenhagen dwajn @image.dk
-----------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:12:35 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Well! Of all the nerve!
Melinda wrote:
>>I think it is very, very RUDE for a woman (or man) to approach a couple who
are conversing, and interrupt them to ask one for a dance. Some time ago I
invited a well known tango teacher from out of town to be my guest at a
milonga. I practically had to beat off the other women with a stick in
order to get a few dances myself with my friend! He is a polite man and was
gracious with the ladies who asked, but I am still mad about not having the
last dance because some other woman waylaid him as he was walking towards
me.....>>>>
I think a person should be sensitive to couples engaged in conversation
but how is one to know that it is something serious or romantic aside from
obvious signs? I don't think it is rude to ask. Why is it so difficult to say
no? I am asked sometimes by women to dance even if I am in a conversation.
But some people chat just to pass the time between dances. And others can't
wait to be asked even though they are in a conversation. If either one or the
other says yes to a dance then the conversation must not have been important
enough to say no.
I usually dance three or four dances with someone and then move on,
especially if I am at the milonga alone. But recently a woman asked me to go
to a milonga with her so I clarified beforehand whether we going on a date or
if she just wanted to meet me there and have someone to dance with. She said
she wanted to dance with just me so I said we should be on a date especially
if we were going to meet and go together and leave together. So we decided
that we wouldn't dance with others that night. If anyone asked her or me we
just declined although we danced so much that no one wanted to interrupt
anyway. Many of the people at the dance knew me and were people I would
normally dance with. But it was fairly obvious that we were on a date so
nobody bothered us (although I'm sure there was a little gossip afterwards
;-) ). But if anyone had asked us we would have refused.
This situation is a two way street. One should try to be sensitive to a
couple together but they also shouldn't refrain from asking just because they
are in conversation. How does one know what they are talking about? By the
same token the person being asked can always refuse.
But if you really are on a date (but are still dancing with others) I think
it is appropriate and advisable to save the last dance, or better yet, last
tanda for that special person.
Like the old Drifters song says:
"But don't forget who's taking you home and in whose arms you're gonna be.
So darling save the last dance for me."
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:02:46 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tanda Thread
Tandas & all the rest may be fine for Buenos Aires -- though even there
they may be on their way out. Argentina is becoming a thoroughly modern
country, plugged in to the entire world.
Though there are plenty of growing pains -- which you can read about in
online newspapers, such as Clarin & La Nacional. The B. A. Herald
(www.buenosairesherald.com) is in English, the rest can be automatically
translated into often-awkward but easily understood English (& a few
other languages). Violence against politicians, public officials,
journalists, & politically active ordinary people is still almost
routine. An anonymous phone call from an angry neighbor can get you put
in jail on suspicion of anything, & getting out may not be easy.
So the tight social groups at milongas in Argentina are not just the
result of sexual repression. They are because the older Argentines
remember all too bitterly what life once was there, & is all-too-slowly
ceasing to be. When to trust was an invitation to tragedy.
Tandas & cortinas & secretive ways to give & reply to an invitation
to dance still serve a purpose, but times are changing. Newer milongas
& older ones with a influx of young Argentines are bound to change with
their impatience with the restrictions on their freedom.
Outside of Argentina, these traditions are not needed. Americans are
more likely to want to dance two or three (or nine) dances with the
same person, not five in a row. And DJs may prefer longer (or shorter)
sequences of tunes. For instance, eight selections from one band, but
not all tangos: maybe four tangos, two milongas, & two valses. Or
perhaps a sequence of tunes, the first two slow, the next three medium
tempo, & the last one fast. And to sophisticated listeners the cortina
is more likely to be an insult, like a disapproving adult talking down
to ignorant children.
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 5 Feb 2000 to 6 Feb 2000 (#2000-36)
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