The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 4 Feb 2000
to 5 Feb 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 03:00:03 -0500
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 4 Feb 2000 to 5 Feb 2000 (#2000-35)
There are 16 messages totalling 675 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. tango book
2. Tandas.... Organization of a Social Dance Event..... (2)
3. Not enough time to learn TAngo! Practice! Practice! Practice! It
works!
4. (fwd) Additional showings of National Geographic documentary
5. NYC Tango Ambassadors (follow up)...
6. Esteban and Claudia (Re: New teachers at the CITA)
7. The pleasures of live music
8. women asking men to dance (2)
9. Dance Cards
10. Tango in: Orlando/FL & Guadalajara/Mexico
11. Men asking-Women asking
12. sex differences and social dancing
13. Tanda Thread (2)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:36:02 MET
From: Brendle jmarc <jmarc @EOST.U-STRASBG.FR>
Subject: tango book
Dear Tango Dancers:
Could someone please tell me where I can find
the 2 tango books
Dinzel R.: El Tango Una Danza, Buenos Aires:Corregidor, 1994
ISBN 950-05-0793-5
Hanna G.: Asi bailaban el tango(deutsch), Berlin:Metro, 1993
ISBN 3-928282-04-2
Thank you,
jean marc
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:36:36 EST
From: Arthur Greenberg <AHGberg @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tandas.... Organization of a Social Dance Event.....
In the Good Old Days of holding formal dance events.....other than Tango......
I remember the following organizational procedure: At the beginning of the
dance event a list of music to be played during the dance evening would be
posted for all to see and a notation of just what (Waltz, Foxtrot, etc)
was expected to be danced to that clearly defined and preplanned music .
To supplement this organization, each person obtained a form called a " dance
card" with blank spaces adjacent the musical selections to be payed
throughout the evening. Using this helpful listing the number of dances and
music to be played, one would have the opportunity to organize their dance
evening by filling in the names of partners who would mutually promise those
dances and note your name on their dance card...... and they would enter
similar information on their dance cards. Seemed fairly "foolproof"
Usually there were no slip ups! Usually the dance host would select the kind
of music in advance working out the selections with the hired orchestra
leader according to the event that would be held. These were of course
private dance affairs.....not open-to-the-public milongas If someone asked
you to dance with them one could simply refer to their dance card that
was filled in earlier in the evening, to know and confirm whether or not a
particular dance was promised to be saved for another person. Commitments
were pursued early in the evening well in advance so dance cards filled up
quickly. To loosen up this awfully tight procedure the orchestra would
announce that they would play a selection that was not offered and therefor
it was open for anyone to dance with anyone else choosing ones partner
spontaneously.
It may sound a bit inflexible but it worked pretty well. Those were the days
of "cutting in" during the course of a dance! Today if someone approached a
couple and said, "May I cut in?" it is quite possible he would get a fist in
his mouth or worse. Those were days of "long ago" when the social dance
scene seemed to be a much more polite, civilized and sophisticated era.
Does anyone out there among our 1020 participants of the Tango List remember
this? Are there still places where this attempt at "social order and
organization" still exists?
I have saved some of those old dance cards in my old "memories trunk". I
remember every one of the "girls" even though they list only first names.
I occasionally rummage through the old dance cards I hav foolishly saved,
reminiscently.....and nostagialicly . I can close my eyes and visualize
clearly who these delightful people were, along with the sounds of the music
and the scent of heavily perfumed bodies. The dancing was delicious.
Ladies! When we meet at one of the evening milongas at the upcoming 5/1
Tango Congress in Miami Beach, please mark in advance on your dance card to
save Arturo a Tango! I will do likewise........now get in line and no
pushing! You can ask me to dance if I do not ask you! I will never refuse a
lady's request to dance!
Sincerely yours,
Arturo
AHGberg @aol.com
West Palm Beach, Florida, USA
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:07:03 EST
From: Arthur Greenberg <AHGberg @AOL.COM>
Subject: Not enough time to learn TAngo! Practice! Practice! Practice! It
works!
Hi listeros and learning Tango Dancers:
I want to mention the name Gina to you! What is so special about Gina? Gina
is a slender young lady ( and petite) in her late 20's who is in Roberto
Maiolo's Tango Class each Wednesday at the local Cultural Center of Argentina
, a place on Lake Worth, In West Palm Beach, Florida.
In only a relatively short period of time ( only a few months) Gina has
progressed far beyond anyone I have ever seen in a Tango learning situation
during a very short elapsed time period. She has little or no dance
background or training that I could account for, that could cause her
unusual progress.
When I look at her and I then contemplate others who have studied this art
form over a longer time span who are struggling to improve. Then I see
someone like Gina, who with the right learning attitude and
a willingness to practice (what she has been taught) many hours per
week. Aside from getting excellent basic group instruction and a few
privates now and then, I feel that it is definitely attributable to the
practice time out there on the dance floor. I feel that the unusual
time spent practicing this dance is the main reason for her unusually
excellent progress. She has caught the Tango virus just as surely as
someone catches the Flu but the results of the Tango obsession virus are
infinitely more fulfilling. I wish I had the drive, the stamina and
potential that her partner, Jon, has shown in pursuing their dream of
becoming a super Tango couple. They seem to have abandoned whatevver they
do on a regular basis to do nothing but Tango Dancing. Wow! What a life!
Not only are their practice sessions intense! They also are very
organized. They never work on anything more than two hours at a time.
They always do a few minutes of stretching and bending warmup excercises
before they commence their practices. They dance and work on patterns mostly
for two solid hours (except for pee breaks) Then they take a ten minute
break and resume dancing; most times for an hour additional,,,no talk just
dancing. This last hour is used to ascertain exactly what concepts are
failing them or need more work and what step patterns they can utilize to
improve their dancing. They have learned how to practice and how to learn.
They seem to have independently determined their priorities for the next
practice session. Their three hour regimen is repeated at least three times
each week. There is always an agenda (a lesson plan) a goal and Jon who has
some teaching experience has such a depth of patience that it inspires his
partner to new highs. He is never hyper critical while he works on their
blending and she is never discouraged when things do not go perfectly during
their practices. They respect each other but are not lovers.......only
passionate about the Argentine Tango.
I am beginning to understand better but do not appreciate the fact that
there are many super couples who dance with each other, who become
sensationally successful as a couple, and then break up and go their
separate ways. I know that it is a way of life......but it is still very
sad to see when a great dance team developes enough animosity between them
and they become disenchanted enough to call it quits.
All that energy that is input into achieving a high level of perfection.
Down the drain! Tell me why they do not Tango dance together through life
and live happily ever after? It seems possible! What do you think?
Sincerely,
Arturo
AHGberg @aol.com
West Palm Beach, Florida, USA
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:50:16 GMT
From: Ed Loomis <edl @WCO.COM>
Subject: (fwd) Additional showings of National Geographic documentary
On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:19:46 -0800, Cammie Strange
<milonguera @DELLNET.COM> wrote:
>I watched and taped the special with interest last night but was
>disappointed that it was so short. Does anyone know how long=20
>the original was?=20
>
>Cammie Strange, Colorado
My copy, which was recorded in 1996 is about 24 minutes long. I
believe it is the entire program. It was made to run in a 30 minute
time slot with announcements. I wished that it was longet too.
Ciao........
Ed Loomis, California
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:56:21 EST
From: "Stephen T. Chin-Bow" <CHIN-BOW @SACC.HSCBKLYN.EDU>
Subject: NYC Tango Ambassadors (follow up)...
Hi again-
A few weeks ago I posted a message called "NYC tango ambassadors".
I just added the file to my web site. In my original post, I could not
include a lot of opinions because of space limitations, but the web version
has hyperlinks to other sections of my web page which explain further how I
feel. I hope you find this useful.
The direct URL is:
http://hallux.medschool.hscbklyn.edu/~chin-bow/NYCGREET.HTM
Stephen Chin-Bow
Website: http://hallux.medschool.hscbklyn.edu/~chin-bow/
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:54:00 -0800
From: "Cuya, Elz" <cuya @SFRADIO.CBS.COM>
Subject: Re: Esteban and Claudia (Re: New teachers at the CITA)
Esteban Moreno can be reached at:
emoreno @tin.it
elz
----------
From: Jari Aalto+mail.priv
To: cuya; TANGO-L
Subject: Re: Esteban and Claudia (Re: New teachers at the CITA)
Date: Friday, January 28, 2000 1:42PM
* Wed 2000-01-19 Helaine Treitman <treitman @giotto.org> list.tango
* Message-Id: <01BF6289.AAD52440.treitman @giotto.org>
| Peter knows Esteban and Claudia much better than I do, and everything I
was
| about to offer about this couple he has already said beautifully. I want
to
| add something, as a follower and woman who has worked with Claudia.
|
| I took classes with them for three days last summer at Tangomania
| Summerfestival in Sasso Marconi, Bologna. They are serious, dedicated
| teachers. Claudia worked hard with me on my technique in all the classes,
and
| was very demanding, for which I was grateful. More than any other teacher,
| Claudia helped me really improve my giro, which I've been working on for
years,
| and it was a breakthrough for me. I would choose her classes, followers,
if
| you want to clean up your technique, but you have to let her know you want
to
| work.
I have been participating 2 courses of this couple in Sweden
Stockholm with my partner Heini Soutamo. I've also seen the big stars
(Zotto, Arcuri ..) in the last summer's intrernational Tango Festival
in Spain, Valencia.
In any day, I would choose Claudio and Esteban and recommend them highly
to anyone asking for exellent instructors.
Their style is "real tango". The kind of tango that makes you take a
deep breath and say vow! Esteban's leaning position is perfect for the
lady to be able to feel how the lead is evolving. From this position
the figures are always done "together" and it assists in finding the
balance due to close embrace (which you must work hard to get it
right).
Would anyone have their address and contact information, because we would
like to invite them to finland to give a workshop in the future.
jari
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:34:31 MST
From: Jane Payne <saltango @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: The pleasures of live music
I must agree with other on this list that my thinking about dancing to
Piazzolla has been changed by the experience of dancing to live music. With
a true partner, and sensitive musicians, it can become a dialog with the one
I am dancing with, with the musicians, even with the music!
It is true that live music can be a blessing or a curse, and the small but
growing tango community in Salt Lake City is blessed to be blessed. We have
the privilege of dancing to live music about once a month to the strains of
bandoneanist-in-residence Daniel Diaz and friends. His praises have been
sung many times on this list, and are well deserved. He plays with the
fingers of a musician and the soul of a dancer.
I believe the newer dancers in our community have a tremendous gift from
Daniel. There is no faster way to understand the heart of tango and its
culture than to be in the same room with a bandoneon well played.
I encourage anyone who has the opportunity to hear Daniel play (and
hopefully, dance as well), to do so, whether it be to invite him to your
community or to come and dance in Salt Lake City.
Jane
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:16:20 -0600
From: Chris Joens <chris @XIT.NET>
Subject: women asking men to dance
I have never turned down a lady who asks me to dance , and I
never will . I consider it a compliment . I say that the women should be
free to ask anyone to dance if they are so inclined . And any man who
would be offended by a lady asking him to dance [or refuse her ] should
not consider himself a gentleman. When men turn down an invitation to
dance that makes some women reluctant to ask people to dance in the
future and as a result there may be someone that would like to dance
with me but I may never know it.
Christopher Joens
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:05:06 -0500
From: Robin Tara <rtara @MAINE.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: Dance Cards
I have a box of old dance cards that my mother saved from the '30's and
'40's. They are very extravagent in design with pearlized covers, foils
and tassels. She lived in Maine and did most of her dancing at
Fraternity parties at the University. I imagine dance cards from larger
metropolitan areas must be even more glitzy.
I notice that when she filled them in she tried to make it look as if
she didn't dance most of her dances with her favorite partner, Bob. She
sometimes wrote him in as Bob, sometimes Robert and sometimes R.F. -
wonder who she was trying to fool?
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:49:18 +0000
From: Carol Shepherd <shepherd @ARBORLAW.COM>
Subject: Re: Tandas.... Organization of a Social Dance Event.....
I can't imagine anything so wonderful, being saved for memories, as "foolish"!
Up here in the cold frozen wastes, we do have one event I know of that
uses dance cards, but it's the traditional music and dance society
(vintage clothes, old forms of dance to Victorian music etc). So I've
never had one! Yet another thing I envy from previous
generations...society really was in many ways "kinder and gentler" then
(in comparison to the current Darwinian/Capitalist trend in American
social dancing in which women have to aggressively sprint to beat out
other women to ask the potential partner as he's coming off the floor).
Have a great day,
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw Associates PLLC
Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
734 668 4646 v 734 663 9361 f
business, technology, entertainment
and new media law
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:28:39 -0000
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: women asking men to dance
Original Message -----
From: Chris Joens <chris @XIT.NET>
> I have never turned down a lady who asks me to dance ,
That is very generous of you and I hope all the ladies you dance with
are properly grateful.
> I say that the women should be
> free to ask anyone to dance if they are so inclined .
Yes, I agree, women should be free to ask anybody to dance.
>And any man who
> would be offended by a lady asking him to dance [or refuse her ] should
> not consider himself a gentleman.
Here I disagree completely. Perhaps being offended by somebody asking one to
dance is a little uncalled for, but it is certainly with one's prerogative
and certainly one's feelings need not be denied. But more importantly, why
should anybody (man or woman) be obligated to dance with anybody who asked?
There are many legitimate and valid reasons to decline such offers and maybe
just not wanting to is quite OK.
>When men turn down an invitation to
> dance that makes some women reluctant to ask people to dance in the
> future
What about women to turn men down for a dance? Why should such standard not
be applied equally. Why single out men for a particular onus and not women?
I suspect it is because no one should be obligated to do something they do
not want to just because somebody else asks them to do it. Men always must
risk the chance of rejection. That is part of the deal. The freedom to ask
for something comes with the risk of being denied. As far as I'm concerned
that is OK. I'm willing to ask and risk rejection but I would expect
everybody else to do so as well.
>and as a result there may be someone that would like to dance
> with me but I may never know it.
That is fine too. Why not just approach them and ask yourself? If you want
to dance with somebody just go ahead and ask. If they want to, they'll agree
or turn you down. If a particular person wants to dance with you they should
either ask directly or indirectly. It is your right to accept or not. I
think that the reason women do not ask directly for men to dance is because
they do not want to risk rejection. Nothing wrong with that. Nobody likes
rejection. That is why there is such an elaborate system in place in Bs As
(and other places) where women (and men) ask indirectly by first making (or
avoiding) eye contact and then nodding the approval. It is much easier for
most people to use these indirect means and so avoid embarrassment.
IMHO, anybody should have the right to ask anyone else to dance (or
whatever) but the other has the perfect right to refuse.
Manuel
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:50:28 -0500
From: Matej Oresic <matej.oresic @CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Tango in: Orlando/FL & Guadalajara/Mexico
Hello,
two tangoueros from Ithaca will be traveling in March and are asking for
information about tango in:
Orlando / Florida
Guadalajara / Mexico
Thanks,
Matej
matej.oresic @cornell.edu
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:27:23 EST
From: for Brook Tankle <LV2TNGO @AOL.COM>
Subject: Men asking-Women asking
Dear list, I humbly take some responsibility for starting this discussion re:
women asking men to dance although my original point was women asking men to
dance when they were standing with or in discussion with another women. No
one so far has commented on this situation and I am interested in your
experience. From all the posts lately I have an appreciation for all the
differing points of view, which I believe is the goal of this list. After
some deeper thought I have become more clear in my own belief. Briefly
stated: Men and Women are different, no big revelation! Men have
traditionally had their way of asking and women have a subtle way of asking.
It works for me. Ciao, Brook
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:43:32 +0000
From: Carol Shepherd <shepherd @ARBORLAW.COM>
Subject: sex differences and social dancing
I do think it's worse for a man to turn a woman down than vice versa. I
have also been in situations where men will 'penalize' women by not
dancing with them if they asked or tried to indirectly set up the man to
ask them. I think it's more of a problem where there are a surplus of
women who are good dancers. Where there are fewer men, I think it is
the mark of a gentleman to try to "spread himself around" and this
always gets him the best of reputations socially.
Manuel said the risk of rejection should be equal because men have to
get rejected all the time. But social dance is NOT equal--men lead and
women don't, plus there is a whole gender-based ritual surrounding
making the invitation, leading the woman to the floor (at least I've
never seen a woman lead the man to the floor!). Dance is all about
enhancing and enjoying these sex differences and social
perceptions...and tango is a more sexual dance than most.
If a man asks 50 women to dance and dances with all 50, he looks like a
hero! If a woman asks 50 men to dance and dances with all 50, she looks
like a "party girl" and there are suggestions of promiscuity in her
character.
Under the logic of making things equal, women could just as easily lead
and men follow, lead them to the floor and start the dance...but that's
not the way it is!...vive la difference. In other dances I have
learned the lead, (switching back and forth is very popular now in
Detroit with the lindy hoppers in the swing clubs), but in tango I would
only dance follow, to me the dance is very sexual and based in
gender...I also don't ask men out on dates.
I very much agree that there is an absolute right to say no to a dance
for whatever reason, but it's very socially poor to say no and then
accept or pursue another for the same dance.
Just an opinion, have a nice day!
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw Associates PLLC
Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
734 668 4646 v 734 663 9361 f
business, technology, entertainment
and new media law
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 04:02:25 +0000
From: Keith Elshaw <elshaw @INTERLOG.COM>
Subject: Tanda Thread
As Tango is about the music, and the programming of it is of particular
interest to me personally, I would like to heartily thank Ruddy, Tom and
Steve for their very interesting posts and make a couple of additional
comments.
It seems to me that there are two kinds of social Tango right now: Tango
inside Buenos Aires and Tango everywhere else.
Some cities are more like Bs. As. than others. But perhaps what, 3 or 4
cities in the world can claim even 15% of the numbers and 7% of the
longevity of its Tango scene? And virtually none of the essential
ingredients of the stew.
I am not alone in believing it is crucial to learn as much as possible
about how things are and how they got to be that way in BA; and to want
to foster a local culture as close as possible to it. That's where Tango
is.
Reading the submissions on the Tanda topic has been everything I hoped
for. It is the sober consideration of local imperatives against that
background that I wanted to illuminate.
We all live in a different world than the Porte=F1os - even as we seek to
emulate theirs to derive the same pleasures and experiences.
We don't have the same social circumstances. The history.The current
social exigencies.
What are we trying to achieve?
Surely it is the right mix for who we are and where we are and the times
we live in to make a Tango scene grow.
It's a finesse thing.
Slavish (perhaps too strong a word) adherence to strictures that have no
relevance to the local environment are futile. When in Rome means just
that. What Argentinian visiting your Milonga would be offended if you
asked them to dance instead of trying to catch their eye across the
room?
We accept their rules when there. If we know who we are, we can have our
own.
So there is the sociological/geographical difference. And there is the
the numbers difference.
Let's take the cortina. The purpose of a cortina is to clear the dance
floor so that those not dancing can be offered the opportunity. (Posts
on this topic invited). But if there are less than 40 people in
attendance, this isn't called for. It's a common sense thing. Or it is
an artificial thing; we do it here because they do it in Buenos Aires. I
have no problem with it, as long as it is CONCIOUSLY programmed the
right way - not done to copy something not understood.
What Steve said is true: when a Tanda comes on, people in Buenos Aires
know what they can expect from it. They are wary of what is to come with
a stranger.
So how relevant is that to our communities where we mostly know each
other? I submit that we don't have the complicated undertones at work.
We go to dance Tango. We want to dance. Ask or say no.
I daresay very few of us are influenced by what our parents or their
church would say about our desires. We just do it.
It's different still in Argentina. If I was a d.j. there, I would live
by their rules and play 4 or 5 songs with the same tempo and the same
feeling and hope they have a good time. I would sweat to make it right.
Outside of Buenos Aires, I think that's like believing politicians and
clergy never obfuscate.
My point again: let's be us here and program each song for the moment,
not for social objectives with no relevance that diminish the experience
every three minutes for all the wrong reasons.
Tandas shouldn't be made as if we are in complicated and lovely Buenos
Aires. We're not.
I look forward to reading others' views, pro and con.
Tangazos,
Keith Elshaw
ToTango!
http://www.interlog.com/~elshaw/ttindex.html
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:52:00 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tanda Thread
Keith Elshaw wrote:
>... The purpose of a cortina is to clear the dance floor so that those
>not dancing can be offered the opportunity. (Posts on this topic
>invited). But if there are less than 40 people in attendance, this
>isn't called for. It's a common sense thing. Or it is an artificial
>thing; we do it here because they do it in Buenos Aires. I have no
>problem with it, as long as it is CONCIOUSLY programmed the right way -
>not done to copy something not understood.
...
>Tandas shouldn't be made as if we are in complicated and lovely Buenos
>Aires. We're not.
Setting up tandas of similar music separated by cortinas can be useful at
milongas outside Buenos Aires. Together they break the music into sets
of similar types of music, allowing dancers to choose partners based upon
the style of music with expectations that dancing throughout the entire
tanda will be in a similar vein. The cortina acts as signal the tanda
has come to an end and the music is about to change. It allows for a
rotation of partners.
If I head out onto the floor with a partner when Biagi is playing,
neither of us may want to dance with each other if the next song is
played by Pugliese. Yes, we can stop dancing and change partners, but
then we do not get the enjoyment of further exploring the ideas that we
began while dancing to Biagi. Personally, I like the music to be played
in tandas.
In addition the adoption of customs prevalent at milongas in Buenos Aires
may contribute to the sense of participating in another culture and at
the same time prepare tango dancers for what seems to be the ultimate
quest, a tango trip to Buenos Aires.
Emulating the customs of milongas in Buenos Aires may not seem necessary
among 20-40 friends, but what if the milonga is successful and grows to
200? What if strangers visit? Does the DJ suddenly introduce new social
customs?
From my experience, the most successful milongas in the larger tango
communities in North America seem to emulate many of the tanda rules
established in Buenos Aires.
--Steve de Tejas
End of TANGO-L Digest - 4 Feb 2000 to 5 Feb 2000 (#2000-35)
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