The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 2 Feb 2000
to 3 Feb 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 03:00:05 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 2 Feb 2000 to 3 Feb 2000 (#2000-33)
There are 26 messages totalling 1546 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Good Mistakes
2. hello!
3. unsubscribe (2)
4. Women asking men to dance (3)
5. Additional showings of National Geographic documentary
6. Tango update / progress from Wellington, New Zealand
7. Fw: Missing apologies (4)
8. Tanda Preferences (4)
9. Url update
10. Fw: Re: Fw: Missing apologies
11. Roommate for Cosmo Tango
12. Milonga CD
13. Zotto and Plebs on National Geographic Tango Documentary
14. Missing apologies and Latino Stereotypes
15. Tanda Preferences (long)
16. TANGO TANGO, April 19 to 24
17. Missing Apologies - "Rosi's Comments"
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:12:18 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Good Mistakes
Lester Buck had a good point about mistakes. I want to add to that.
We usually think of mistakes as something bad. They are a main part
of learning any activity. We spend a lot of time doing something,
criticizing our performance by comparing it with some ideal, then
focussing on one or a few related mistakes that we observed to
eliminate them.
But when we're actually DOING something, rather than learning or
practicing it, mistakes can be good. Of course, we want to avoid
socially or physically catastrophic mistakes. But except for those
kinds, in social dancing a perfect performance is not a sign of
success. It's a sign of failure.
Here are the good things about risking and inevitably making
mistakes.
* Risk adds the excitement that a little bit of adrenaline brings.
For your partner as well as yourself.
* By making mistakes and recovering from them you learn to handle
mistakes. Which also gives you more confidence, makes you more
willing and able to risk.
* A mistake can be a source of creativity, because your're doing
the unexpected.
* Creating a way out of a mistake might make a dance move that
none of your teachers could teach or maybe even do.
So when you next make a mistake on the dance floor, don't feel
bad, or stop, or blame your partner. Use the mistake, transcend
it, ENJOY it.
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:45:03 -0300
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Nicol=E1s_Escandell?= <fabi @NETGATE.COM.UY>
Subject: hello!
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Please, I need your help, I want to unsubscribe me from this mailing =
list.=20
Could you tell me how to do this?
Thanks
N.E.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Please, I need your help, I want to =
unsubscribe me=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Could you tell me how to do =
this?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>N.E.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:49:24 -0300
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Nicol=E1s_Escandell?= <fabi @NETGATE.COM.UY>
Subject: unsubscribe
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:37:52 +0100
From: DW <dwajn @IMAGE.DK>
Subject: Women asking men to dance
From: Dan
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @mitvma.mit.edu>
Sent: 2. february 2000 09:00
Subject: Women asking men to dance
Dear Listeros,
I feel very gratified that so many of you chose to speak on the subject.
I also want to make absolutely clear, that I never dreamed of trying to
criticize the Bs As tango ways.
Even though, as some of you wrote to me, it is a cruel tradition, you don't
eradicate tigers because they are cruel. When in Bs As we should do as the
Romans do...
However, I have a feeling that elsewhere not much of a social dance
tradition exists. Simply because social dance is gone. When tango clubs are
formed, as here in Copenhagen, a new code is somehow instantly created,
often a rather silly one. Clearly, this is not a local "tradition" or
"culture".
I hope that this discussion will contribute to forming new, more friendly
codes for informal "practicas".
Not necessarily for all occasions, just to relax things a bit and bring us
back to earth.
I do not think that shaking up of these "instant codes" would violate local
cultural values. Here in Copenhagen girls dance together, sometimes men do
that as well. Some other places they do not. As far as I know in most
places it is allowed to closely embrace a lady in a dance, but not in an
elevator.
Dear ladies, you write quite a bit on how to ask men to dance without
really asking.
I am sure that is all very clever, useful and practical. But you want to
have a cake and eat it. When you do the asking you risk rejection. We men
do it all the time, that is what gives as heart attacks and ages us
prematurely.
Didn't you know we were heroes? Now, when you try it yourself, you think
twice before ever rejecting us. So here is the profit for us men. The
point, as far as I am concerned is to never to say or to hear a "no". A
nice revolutionary utopia, isn't it?
Some of you wrote to me directly, not to the List, giving way to strong
emotions. I do appreciate it, but will discuss only the messages posted to
the List, as this is not a private subject.
Best regards,
Dan Wajnman, Copenhagen dwajn @image.dk
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:38:07 EST
From: Victor Crichton <victor_vsc @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Additional showings of National Geographic documentary
Melinda Bates wrote:
>
>Cammie, I remember it as a one hour National Geographic special. This
>edited version was a big disappointment.
>Melinda
>
>-----
I also thought that the new version was shorter, so I took another look at
my older version. As Mark Celeya wrote, the section on Gardel was cut out
plus a few of the interviews were shortened.
As close as I could tell, the new version was approx twenty minutes long and
the older version was six or seven minutes longer. If someone has another
version that was an hour long, I would be very interested in getting a copy
of it.
Many thanks for any info,
Victor Crichton
Tampa Bay, Florida
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 03:26:01 +1300
From: Alex White <alex_tangofirulete @XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject: Tango update / progress from Wellington, New Zealand
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Saludos tangueros del mundo !
I'd like to report the success of our new Latin- American Nightclub, =
where there is many a tango to be danced.
I am DJ and dance teacher at the Wellington dance scene's newest dance =
venue which can be danced at nearly all through the week.
the past several weeks have been very successful and the scene is =
growing here a lot considering Wellington "small" size of around 500,000 =
or so people, we are now managing to support dance classes everyday of =
the week, and have tango dancing more than four nights a week. We are =
very fortunate to have a live tango band which plays once every six =
weeks. (not often enough!)
I have been actively promoting with flyers and weekly dancing in the =
BsAs equivilent of calle Florida y Lavalle here for over 4 months now =
:)
We have a monthly magazine and events monthly. I am planning a big Ball =
in May too.=20
Tomorrow I have been invited by the Argentine Embassy to represent the =
Argentine Rugby 7's team by dancing Tango with my Students for the Prime =
Minister, Mayor and Public during a parade where all countries who =
participate in Rugby 7's are represented. (it should be great - if it =
doesn't rain) - if it does I suppose we'll be damp tangueros (it adds to =
the sensuality of the dance - as we experienced for a street dancing =
event last year -Cuba St Carnival ).
I am playing my bandoneon in a performance on 4th March for the =
Wellington Fringe Arts Festival, which is an annual festival promoting =
the growth of Arts, Dance etc. it's called "Penas del bandoneon" and =
tells a story of a tango teacher who fights for justice, and what she =
believes in, during the military dictatorship and disapperances of the =
1970's.
Things will be busy because me and four other Wellingtonions will be =
going to CITA-2000 (www.cosmotango.com)in Buenos Aires on the 10th of =
March. (I went last year to CITA'99 & it was totally awesome - great =
bands too)
(I'll be staying til the 10 Abril). Also we're having Hugo Valdez (el =
Gato) visit Wellington & Auckland to give workshops.
I'm travelling to Blenheim, Nelson & Christchurch to give workshops =
between 16-19 Feb too.
Happy dancing - and if you see me in Buenos Aires, come and say Hi - & =
don't be afraid to ask me to dance
(I generally don't say no & don't bite...very often) :)
have a look at me (tall 1.95cm, 22 yr old blond guy on my webpage)
http://come.to/tango_firulete
Chaucito y pronto te vuelvo a ver mi Buenos Aires querido....
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Saludos tangueros del mundo !</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'd like to report the success of our new Latin- =
American=20
Nightclub, where there is many a tango to be danced.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I am DJ and dance teacher at the Wellington dance =
scene's=20
newest dance venue which can be danced at nearly all through the=20
week.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>the past several weeks have been very successful and =
the scene=20
is growing here a lot considering Wellington "small" size of around =
500,000 or=20
so people, we are now managing to support dance classes everyday of the =
week,=20
and have tango dancing more than four nights a week. We are very =
fortunate=20
to have a live tango band which plays once every six weeks. (not often=20
enough!)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have been actively promoting with flyers and =
weekly dancing=20
in the BsAs equivilent of calle Florida y Lavalle here for over 4 =
months=20
now :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>We have a monthly magazine and events monthly. I am =
planning a=20
big Ball in May too. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Tomorrow I have been invited by the Argentine =
Embassy to=20
represent the Argentine Rugby 7's team by dancing Tango with my Students =
for the=20
Prime Minister, Mayor and Public during a parade where all countries who =
participate in Rugby 7's are represented. (it should be great - if it =
doesn't=20
rain) - if it does I suppose we'll be damp tangueros (it adds to the =
sensuality=20
of the dance - as we experienced for a street dancing event last year =
-Cuba St=20
Carnival ).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I am playing my bandoneon in a performance on 4th =
March for=20
the Wellington Fringe Arts Festival, which is an annual festival =
promoting the=20
growth of Arts, Dance etc. it's called "Penas del bandoneon" and =
tells a=20
story of a tango teacher who fights for justice, and what she =
believes in,=20
during the military dictatorship and disapperances of the =
1970's.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Things will be busy because me and four other =
Wellingtonions=20
will be going to CITA-2000 (<A=20
href=3D"http://www.cosmotango.com">www.cosmotango.com</A>)in Buenos =
Aires on the=20
10th of March. (I went last year to CITA'99 & it was totally awesome =
- great=20
bands too)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>(I'll be staying til the 10 Abril). Also we're =
having Hugo=20
Valdez (el Gato) visit Wellington & Auckland to give =
workshops.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'm travelling to Blenheim, Nelson & =
Christchurch to give=20
workshops between 16-19 Feb too.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Happy dancing - and if you see me in Buenos Aires, =
come and=20
say Hi - & don't be afraid to ask me to dance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> (I generally don't say no & don't =
bite...very=20
often) :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>have a look at me (tall 1.95cm, 22 yr old blond guy =
on my=20
webpage)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://come.to/tango_firulete">http://come.to/tango_firulete</A><=
/FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Chaucito y pronto te vuelvo a ver =
mi Buenos=20
Aires querido....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:54:27 -0500
From: Enrico Massetti <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Fw: Missing apologies
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Querido Tangueros y tangueras,
midnight is passed by without apologies from Mr. Rosi, so, as promised,
here you have some excerpts of the e-mail I received from a lady, the
complete
original is in the attachment:
Original Message -----
From: Gabriella Gossipa <barefoot_tanguera @faking_it_all.com>
To: Enrico Massetti <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, January 71, 2000 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: Missing apologies
> Querido Enrico,
>
> I tel you this story so you can see all about Rosi. Is an embarrass for
me
> that I once like and trust him. I was very sat and lonely when he says to
me,
> "Gabriella, te amo!" Though his breath sometime make me choke, I tell him
is
> OK to meet befor the milonga and I geeve him gum.
<snip>
> After "Cumparsita" he tell me he like to go for drive and is nice night so
we
> tour around but I say "no besos" because I have not more gum so he take me
to
> his trailer and tells me to plese wait.
<snip>
> But I am thinking is no good
> tonight and I go out too and tell Rosi to take me home but he says no and
so I
> just walk home. Enrico, what can I do to make Rosi estop wearing mi
boots?
>
> Ciao,
>
> Gabriella Gossipa
(Missing signature:)
Frank Williams, Phd, University of Minnesota
(I took the liberty to put back the signature, Frank please forgive me)
Thanks Frank for helping me to make my point with a lot of humor:
We have rules to prevent personal gossips to be posted on the list, the
reason WHY we have these rules is because on the Internet it is so easy
to fake identities and disseminate false, wrong or simply inappropriate
information of personal nature that this has to be forbidden.
I don't know if Rosi is a man or a woman, I don't know if he/she even
exists,
or if the name is only a fake identity assumed for whatever reason by
somebody who wants to throw dirt on a key figure of tango in Florida.
In addition, there is no lady in the world who tells me her most intimate
secrets of her after-dance, even if sometimes I am part of "real" gossips
among "real" milongueras and milongueros who comment the dancing
style and ability of their partners, usually around a table having an
after-milonga
cup of coffee.
So, dear Rosi, whoever you are, if you really exist, and feel that you just
made an
honest mistake, go forward with the tangueros of Miami, they are looking for
you
to dance a tango with you. They, both men and women, are very good with
ganchos!
And, if you don't exist, but you are only a fake identity, rest in peace
forever.
So long,
Enrico
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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 16:36:22 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw @mail.ahc.umn.edu>
Reply-To: frankw @mail.ahc.umn.edu
Organization: University of Minnesota
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Subject: Re: Missing apologies
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Querido Enrico,
I tel you this story so you can see all about Rosi. Is an embarrass for me
that I once like and trust him. I was very sat and lonely when he says to me,
"Gabriella, te amo!" Though his breath sometime make me choke, I tell him is
OK to meet befor the milonga and I geeve him gum. Later he come to mi house
to take me for dinner, and the pickup truck is ful of old tires, and we drive
to the canal and he stops. Then he takes from under the seat brown bags and
he says "the hole in the muffler keep them warm" but is not enough for mine
since the french fries are cold but only mi cetchup is hot. At the milonga mi
friends wonder why am I wearing boots and I look toward Rosi and then they
know immediate that i am weeshing to no have blue toes. But is not his fault
he wear wooden shoos because hees father make and sell them to touristas.
After "Cumparsita" he tell me he like to go for drive and is nice night so we
tour around but I say "no besos" because I have not more gum so he take me to
his trailer and tells me to plese wait. Then he rush in and soon out comes
two childrens and a old man and one dog and cat and he says to them just to
wait outside for a few minutes. When I go in with Rosi he says "Que linda,
bebe'" but the sheets are still warm from somebody else and I can no stand the
smell of catfood. As he is untie mi boots the childrens outside are shouting
at the dog so Rosi open the door to quite them. But I am thinking is no good
tonight and I go out too and tell Rosi to take me home but he says no and so I
just walk home. Enrico, what can I do to make Rosi estop wearing mi boots?
Ciao,
Gabriella Gossipa
=_NextPart_000_003E_01BF6D63.7DE039E0--
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:03:15 +0100
From: Sabine Fuchs <Sabine.Fuchs @SBG.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: Fw: Missing apologies
Is there really somebody interested in this shit? Where for the heck is the
webmaster?
>Querido Tangueros y tangueras,
>
>midnight is passed by without apologies from Mr. Rosi, so, as promised,
>here you have some excerpts of the e-mail I received from a lady, the
>complete
>original is in the attachment:
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Gabriella Gossipa <barefoot_tanguera @faking_it_all.com>
>To: Enrico Massetti <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 71, 2000 5:36 PM
>Subject: Re: Missing apologies
>
>
>> Querido Enrico,
>>
>> I tel you this story so you can see all about Rosi. Is an embarrass for
>me
>> that I once like and trust him. I was very sat and lonely when he says to
>me,
>> "Gabriella, te amo!" Though his breath sometime make me choke, I tell him
>is
>> OK to meet befor the milonga and I geeve him gum.
>
><snip>
>
>> After "Cumparsita" he tell me he like to go for drive and is nice night so
>we
>> tour around but I say "no besos" because I have not more gum so he take me
>to
>> his trailer and tells me to plese wait.
>
><snip>
>
>> But I am thinking is no good
>> tonight and I go out too and tell Rosi to take me home but he says no and
>so I
>> just walk home. Enrico, what can I do to make Rosi estop wearing mi
>boots?
>>
>> Ciao,
>>
>> Gabriella Gossipa
>
>(Missing signature:)
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Frank Williams, Phd, University of Minnesota
>(I took the liberty to put back the signature, Frank please forgive me)
>
>Thanks Frank for helping me to make my point with a lot of humor:
>
>We have rules to prevent personal gossips to be posted on the list, the
>reason WHY we have these rules is because on the Internet it is so easy
>to fake identities and disseminate false, wrong or simply inappropriate
>information of personal nature that this has to be forbidden.
>
>I don't know if Rosi is a man or a woman, I don't know if he/she even
>exists,
>or if the name is only a fake identity assumed for whatever reason by
>somebody who wants to throw dirt on a key figure of tango in Florida.
>
>In addition, there is no lady in the world who tells me her most intimate
>secrets of her after-dance, even if sometimes I am part of "real" gossips
>among "real" milongueras and milongueros who comment the dancing
>style and ability of their partners, usually around a table having an
>after-milonga
>cup of coffee.
>
>So, dear Rosi, whoever you are, if you really exist, and feel that you just
>made an
>honest mistake, go forward with the tangueros of Miami, they are looking for
>you
>to dance a tango with you. They, both men and women, are very good with
>ganchos!
>
>And, if you don't exist, but you are only a fake identity, rest in peace
>forever.
>
>So long,
>
>Enrico
>
>
>
>
>Received: from lenti.med.umn.edu - 128.101.81.1 by email.msn.com with
Microsoft SMTPSVC;
> Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:30:19 -0800
>Received: from lenti.med.umn.edu (pc6-108.bsbe.umn.edu [160.94.106.108])
> by lenti.med.umn.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08290
> for <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:30:12 -0600 (CST)
>Message-ID: <38975FD1.E45A14D7 @lenti.med.umn.edu>
>Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 16:36:22 -0600
>From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw @mail.ahc.umn.edu>
>Reply-To: frankw @mail.ahc.umn.edu
>Organization: University of Minnesota
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: Enrico Massetti <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
>Subject: Re: Missing apologies
>References: <000701bf6cea$90613520$d095193f @analyst>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Return-Path: frankw @mail.ahc.umn.edu
>
>Querido Enrico,
>
>I tel you this story so you can see all about Rosi. Is an embarrass for me
>that I once like and trust him. I was very sat and lonely when he says to me,
>"Gabriella, te amo!" Though his breath sometime make me choke, I tell him is
>OK to meet befor the milonga and I geeve him gum. Later he come to mi house
>to take me for dinner, and the pickup truck is ful of old tires, and we drive
>to the canal and he stops. Then he takes from under the seat brown bags and
>he says "the hole in the muffler keep them warm" but is not enough for mine
>since the french fries are cold but only mi cetchup is hot. At the milonga mi
>friends wonder why am I wearing boots and I look toward Rosi and then they
>know immediate that i am weeshing to no have blue toes. But is not his fault
>he wear wooden shoos because hees father make and sell them to touristas.
>After "Cumparsita" he tell me he like to go for drive and is nice night so we
>tour around but I say "no besos" because I have not more gum so he take me to
>his trailer and tells me to plese wait. Then he rush in and soon out comes
>two childrens and a old man and one dog and cat and he says to them just to
>wait outside for a few minutes. When I go in with Rosi he says "Que linda,
>bebe'" but the sheets are still warm from somebody else and I can no stand the
>smell of catfood. As he is untie mi boots the childrens outside are shouting
>at the dog so Rosi open the door to quite them. But I am thinking is no good
>tonight and I go out too and tell Rosi to take me home but he says no and so I
>just walk home. Enrico, what can I do to make Rosi estop wearing mi boots?
>
>Ciao,
>
>Gabriella Gossipa
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:19:41 -0800
From: phyllis victory <victory @MARS.ARK.COM>
Subject: unsubscribe
work like you don't need the money
love like you've never been hurt
dance like no one is watching
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:56:16 EST
From: Vicky Magaletta <Vickymag @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Fw: Missing apologies
Here we go again !!!
It has been a long time since this foolishness has happened. It is really
too bad that we actually have people who sit at their computers all day long
and write these sorts of things. Perhaps they should be out dancing instead.
We had an understanding that this list was for the purpose of
advertising/commenting on Tango...it's dance, culture, etc.
The best way to avoid these situations is to ignore the people who write
these sorts of things. When people make comments or insult other people,
first of all, the webmaster should not be sending out the message; and
second, if it gets out, then we should JUST IGNORE IT. If you choose to
answer it, you are just like the person who wrote it. Do not lower
yourself/standards by acknowledging them. The best punishment is to ignore
them.
Whomever writes these comments sounds like a lonely and pitiful person.
Please, do not make this list a place to voice your foolish, out of place
opinions just because you have nothing else to do.
To the rest of us who read these postings, find them helpful and do lean new
things, let's make sure we keep this list active and interesting and again,
IGNORE the foolish comments.
Gracias and happy dancing to all
Vicky Magaletta
Boston, MA
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 02:04:39 +0000
From: Keith Elshaw <elshaw @INTERLOG.COM>
Subject: Tanda Preferences
Dear folks;
How do you like your Tandas? (If you like them).
I ask this admitting that I seem to be from another planet on the
subject of Tandas. I know I am in a tiny minority of dancers/d.j.'s who
have developed their own opinions instead of accepting what is purported
to be "the way."
I suppose wierd things can happen in a vacuum, and for the first few
years I was involved in Tango, there was no one around me who espoused
"the way." So from the beginning I was programming the music for an
optimum experience for myself and others. Now I wonder if I wasn't
blessed by being in that vacuum in my formative years.
For now, I know a lot and I see a lot and I understand how things are.
I know that acknowledged great d.j.'s spend countless hours putting
together tandas. They search for songs by the same artist that are
exactly the same beat so they can link 4 together. Then another 4. Then
another 4. They make notes and use the combinations over and over.
I have been very polite and not said a word to any of them.
But when I am on the dance floor, I want to scream when they do this to
me. It feels like they are treating me like a horse that should have
blinders on. Why?
Four songs at exactly the same tempo by the same orchestra? This is fun
and exciting? This is for people with something to express/explore? This
is conducive to passion and probing?
At McDonald's, maybe. At Arthur Murray.
The most dramatic illustration of my frustration would be to cite Vals.
When I program Vals, I might start with a mellow or slower one (actually
I try to stay away from the really slow ones); but the next has to be
faster. I've already spent 3 long minutes with the slow one. I have to
move on.
When a d.j. plays 4 Vals by even a wonderful orchesta at the same tempo,
I have to sit down. I don't have it in me to keep expressing the same
thing over and over and over and over for 12 or more minutes, ESPECIALLY
to just be polite. Whether I am with a partner I want to dance with or
not. It is excruciating.
It's the same with any Tanda. Four different Tangos by D'Arienzo are
wonderful; four with exactly the same feeling and tempo diminishes the
experience as the Tanda unfolds. That makes you go through the motions
to be polite to your partner. Yech!
Don't d.j.'s know there are 60 seconds in every minute; (and in my world
of audio engineering) there are 30 frames in every second? In 12
minutes, there are 720 seconds. Most emotions are like beats - they keep
coming and coming. Please don't make me try to feel the same way 720
times in a row (let alone the 21,600 frames of the 12 minutes).
I can't understand why anyone in their right mind would play 4 of
anything in a row at the same tempo by, say, DeAngelis. Unless they are
deaf, or on drugs. Or new to Tango and trying to follow what they think
are the "rules." Or not a dancer.
And to a lesser degree I feel the same about Tanturi, Pugliese, Troilo -
whoever. And I adore the music of these maestros. (I know they mixed up
their songs in concert). I can't give my blood for 3 minutes to Chique
and then do it again 3 more times. But I can turn the tap back on for
Derecho Viejo, Que Noche, Malandraca ... =BFEst=E1 claro?
Am I really the only one who feels this way?
I can make great Tandas by any orchestra - but none of the songs in my
Tandas express the same feelings as the one before.
D.J.'s of the Tango world ... wake up! Have some balls! Make the music
make sense - not follow artificial "rules."
Well, what do you all think about this? Do you realize that if all you
have ever heard is the "traditional" method of programming Tandas, you
are being force-fed a lesser experience?
Who says Tandas have to be 4 songs that invoke exactly the same
emotional response? It certainly wasn't anyone who had an ounce of
understanding of the human soul. It was just somebody with an idea that
others copied. Like Bill Drake, the inventor of 60's format radio, who
indirectly killed music radio, ultimately, as others meekly mimicked his
formula.
I'd love to talk to the person who invented the Tanda. I'll bet he/she
is shaking their head over all the well-intentioned copiers who just
don't get it.
Well, actually, the reason I'm sending this to the list is that I expect
I might learn something I don't know about all this from the
well-informed list members who might choose to respond.
But I'll still put my music mixes against anyone's, anytime - if dancers
are to judge it.
Each song demands so much ... how can you just blithely expect people to
do it 3 more times right away? Why not just play La Yumba 4 times in a
row then? That would be a Tanda ...
I do reserve the right to change my mind, and I promise that if I do, I
will detail the reasons for doing so in a new post. But don't hold your
breath for that to happen. Blue-faced dancers aren't likely to find a
partner easily.
I can't wait to read posts trying to explain to me that 4 songs that
feel the same are the right way to go (I have an open mind, but I also
have a brain). (And I'd really love to hear an explanation from the
d.j.'s who will play SIX DeAngelis songs in a row because a CD is so
easy to roll!)
That would be 5 Tandas an hour that are all inevitably boring, times 5
or 6 or 7 hours. A great night.
With a wink and best regards to all, and an expectation of some
thought-provoking responses, I remain
Yours truly,
Keith Elshaw
ToTANGO!
http://www.interlog.com/~elshaw/ttindex.html
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:37:23 +0100
From: DW <dwajn @IMAGE.DK>
Subject: Women asking men to dance
Sramana Mitra wrote:
>>>
just like other little things where we like to accept traditions
because they are charming...
like a man opening the door?
being driven to the party, or home?
being picked up for a date?
being courted?
being seduced?
being kissed?
being undressed?
being given a ring?
several of the above are not as elegant if you reverse the roles!
Sramana
>>>>
Dear Sramana,
Thank you, this is so nice that I am almost convinced.
Still, certain things are great in reverse. Others may be less elegant.
"Cottelstone, Cottelstone, Cottelstone pie,
Flies can't bird, but birds can fly...."(Winnie the Pooh, I think)
I would certainly enjoy your examples, except I do not need a ring.
And then again, some less elegant things are great, although the English
discarded sex for this reason, saying that "...The pleasure is momentary,
the cost is damnable, the position is ridiculous...".
Seriously, these ideas cannot be to everybody's taste, they are about the
freedom to choose. Some ladies do not find it charming to sit and wait,
what would you offer them?
Best regards,
Dan Wajnman dwajn @image.dk
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:06:20 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tanda Preferences
Keith Elshaw <elshaw @INTERLOG.COM> wrote:
>How do you like your Tandas? (If you like them). ...
Like Keith, I find it less interesting to dance to three to five songs in a row
that sound exactly the same. I generally like tandas to be from the same
orchestra and the same era but with some variation in tempo and sound. I also
appreciate the artful assembly of mixed tandas.
I recently assembled some vals tandas on a cassette for use at the practica that
Susan and I host every Thursday night in Dallas. We plan to play a tanda or two
from it at each practica.
Each tanda contains three or four valses. For most tandas, I did not mix
orchestras, but I did put together a few tandas by mixing orchestras that had a
similar feel. More importantly, my overriding critieria in setting up the
entire tape was that each vals would make everyone forget all the previous
valses on the tape, which was quite challenging because I started the cassette
with a tanda of DeAngelis valses. In taking this approach, I quickly eliminated
any vals that would sound like a rerun of the one played before it.
How can you forget the past when it is being rerun? ;-)
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:18:15 EST
From: Jack Karako <JKarako @AOL.COM>
Subject: Url update
Forwarded from a friend, Enjoy.
The website of the festival in Tel Aviv 23 -30 April is updated:
-- For people who do not want to have the full package, please check the registration part for more optionals, like, having only workshops and the milongas, or being in 5 stars or 3 stars hotel without the workshops etc..........
-- The schedule for workshops is also given
http://www.tango.co.il
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:42:53 -0500
From: Enrico Massetti <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Fw: Re: Fw: Missing apologies
Sabine:
> Is there really somebody interested in this shit? Where for the heck is
the
> webmaster?
Vicky:
>Here we go again !!!
>
>It has been a long time since this foolishness has happened. It is really
>too bad that we actually have people who sit at their computers all day
long
>and write these sorts of things.
Dear Sabine and Vicky,
and all the others that did not bother to read my posting in its full
length, either
out of disgust or simple lack of interest for this kind of crap, please take
two
minutes of your time and read the end of my last posting, that in attached
below.
Thanks, and, please relax and have a little laugh!
Enrico
>> Enrico, what can I do to make Rosi estop wearing mi boots?
> >>
> >> Ciao,
> >>
> >> Gabriella Gossipa
> >
> >(Missing signature:)
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Frank Williams, Phd, University of Minnesota
> >(I took the liberty to put back the signature, Frank please forgive me)
> >
> >Thanks Frank for helping me to make my point with a lot of humor:
> >
> >We have rules to prevent personal gossips to be posted on the list, the
> >reason WHY we have these rules is because on the Internet it is so easy
> >to fake identities and disseminate false, wrong or simply inappropriate
> >information of personal nature that this has to be forbidden.
> >
> >I don't know if Rosi is a man or a woman, I don't know if he/she even
> >exists, or if the name is only a fake identity assumed for whatever
reason
>> by somebody who wants to throw dirt on a key figure of tango in Florida.
> >
> >In addition, there is no lady in the world who tells me her most intimate
> >secrets of her after-dance, even if sometimes I am part of "real"
gossips
> >among "real" milongueras and milongueros who comment the dancing
> >style and ability of their partners, usually around a table having an
> >after-milonga cup of coffee.
> >
> >So, dear Rosi, whoever you are, if you really exist, and feel that you
just
> >made an honest mistake, go forward with the tangueros of Miami, they
>> are looking for you to dance a tango with you. They, both men and women,
>> are very good with ganchos!
> >
> >And, if you don't exist, but you are only a fake identity, rest in peace
> >forever.
> >
> >So long,
> >
> >Enrico
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:47:46 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw @MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fw: Missing apologies
Dear friends,
Sabine wrote:
> Is there really somebody interested in this
...snip
Two quick points:
1. You should all realize that masqueraders have been around Tango-l for many
years and they are usually relatively harmless in their pseudonymous attempts
to stir up trouble, except this time somebody blind sided a fine gentleman who
is respected and admired by many. Were it me, I would appreciate it if people
spoke up, rather than simply ignoring the situation. That is why I
voluntarily joined my friends from Florida in protest.
2. If it was inappropriate to answer an insult with humor, you are entitled
to your opinion. No indirect offense was intended. Like Enrico, I have
always tried to contribute to the friendliness of tango-l.
With a smile and warm regards (except to masqueraders),
Frank
--
_____________________________________________________________
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw @mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:03:33 -0700
From: Madhav Apte <mapte @CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Tanda Preferences
Hello List:
I am also curious to see whether there is any substantial
reason why songs from the same orchestra are played together.
The only reason I can think of is if someone is comfortable
with a particular orchestra and they have just asked someone
to dance, they have the opportunity to dance a set to something
they like and can dance to.
Like Keith and Stephen, I don't like to have songs with the
exact same tempo played together. If that particular style is
boring (to me), it makes me sleepy ;-)) so I sit down asap.
I have heard valses in a set and milongas in a set. Of the two, the
milonga set can be challenging if you and your partner of the moment
don't or can't dance the milonga well together (if otoh, you happen
to have someone that you can "click" with for milongas - well, that
is delicious!)
I find that I like it better when the tempo is not repeated from one
song
to the next. It can be the same orchestra or different orchestras, it
does not matter. Further, I see no reason why one couldn't have mix
tangos,
valses and milongas mixed within a set.
Lately I have found myself having strong likes/dislikes about music.
This
makes attending milongas (or even practicas) challenging. But I am
working
on really trying to understand the DJ's view (if they have one) and to
see things from their point of view. So the discussion here could be
fruitful if other folks post reasons for the things that Keith et al.
have
asked about.
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:49:05 -0500
From: "L: Anne-Sophie Ville" <Aville @WORLDBANK.ORG>
Subject: Roommate for Cosmo Tango
I am organizing a group from Washington DC, to participate at the Cosmo Tango
in Buenos Aires in March, and one of the participant (a man) is still looking
for a roommate.
If you are interested in sharing a room, or if you know somebody who might be
interetsted, please contact me.
The hotel where we will stay is the Bristol.
Thanks for your help.
Anne-Sophie
tanganso @hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/tanganso
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:28:39 EST
From: Richard deSousa <M1APORT @AOL.COM>
Subject: Milonga CD
Hi List:
I'm wondering if anyone can tell me where to find a milonga tune called
"Milonga de Noveciento". Thanks.
Rich deSousa
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:02:05 +0100
From: Helaine Treitman <treitman @GIOTTO.ORG>
Subject: Zotto and Plebs on National Geographic Tango Documentary
I too was disappointed this version was so short. But I'm happy I was able to
videotape the pieces with Zotto and Plebs, the first tango dancers I ever saw!
Seeing them on tape still inspires me like the first time I saw them on stage
in 1994.
Anyone know where I can find more footage with Miguel and Milena? (For anyone
doesn't know them, the founders of Tango X 2 no longer dance together!)
Thanks,
Helaine
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:20:18 EST
From: Leonardo Tanguero <TangoLeon @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Missing apologies and Latino Stereotypes
>
>Querido Tangueros y tangueras,
>
>midnight is passed by without apologies from Mr. Rosi, so, as promised,
>here you have some excerpts of the e-mail I received from a lady, the
>complete
>original is in the attachment:
Although it is apparent that Rosi's comments to the list were inappropriate
and humor may be an appropriate way to defuse the issue while getting across
the message, I take strong objection to the character of the humor. I do not
doubt that the author did not intend to insult, but I find it insulting. The
writing of Gabriella Gossipa, although fictional, portrays an demeaning
sterotype of Latinas. The incorrect grammar, spelling, and Latinized
pronounciation is a cruel caricature of a Latina who is not fluent in
English. I would think that tangueros would be more sensitive to these
issues. Tango is a product of Latin culture. Much of the music contains
lyrics in Spanish. Dancing to a product of Latin culture on one hand and
insulting another spect of the culture on the other hand is a mockery.
Leonardo
El Leon del Tango
TangoLeon @aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:38:23 -0800
From: Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy.zelaya @ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: Tanda Preferences (long)
Hola Naifas y Garabos,
"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."
Lewis Carrol. Alice In Wonderland =20
Today's topic is tandas. First, a little history lesson.
Tandas got started (like most inventions) out of necessity.
Radio broadcasts had popularized the best orchestras and
the best tangos. The teeming masses couldn't get enough
of them. Alas, there was only one D'Arienzo orchestra,
one Troilo, one Francisco Canaro, so if you couldn't afford
to go where they played you were out of luck, listening
to the equivalent of our modern garage bands.
Shortly after the great (and not so great) tango orchestras
of yesteryear began recording, someone figured out that
the easiest way of getting their music to the teeming
masses --especially if they happen to be lowly scum living
in the sticks, las orillas ;-)-- was to acquire a victrola and
play some records for them. Voil=E1, the tango DJ was born.
The proto-DJ of those days would put in a record, crank
"la man=EDja" (the handle), and let it rip --literally, the
so called needle (la p=FAa) was almost as thick as a nail ;-)
Since the whole process would take time --no zero-wait
random access here-- it was not unusual for the same
record to be played twice in a row to save time (this little
tidbit comes courtesy of tango master Orlando Paiva,
who used to sneak into the dance halls as a child --he's
now 70ish and no longer sneaks ;-). Some of the old platters
contained two short songs (about 1.5 mins per) rather than
one long one. Lo and behold, the beginning of a tanda was at hand.
The advent of the long play (LP) record with 6, 8 or more songs
per side made it easy for a DJ to play sets longer than two
songs. Now, since a record typically contains the same orchestra
playing in the same year and with (presumably) the same rhythm, the
full blown tanda ( tanda =3D=3D a set of 4 or more songs) as we know
it was born.
When the price of record players came down enough so that
the luxury of having two players was no longer a luxury, the
necessity of playing whatever was on one side of a record
was eliminated. DJs could cue up one record while playing
another. Still, old habits die hard and DJs continued doing
the tandas the same way, i.e., selecting sets from the same side
of a record, because it was easy and faster that way.
By the way, with the two record players the "cortina" tradition was
also born. The cortina was meant to be "filler" music while the DJ
was busy loading up the players. Dancers whiled the time away by
walking the ladies back to their tables, in idle conversation, or doing
what all males do when trying to convince the gentler sex that
they are it ;-) If you notice, there are no cortinas when a live
orchestra plays. There is no need for it. People applaud, fiddlers
fiddle with their fiddle, men do what they do, a dog barks in
the distance.... ;-)
Back to the future. Is it reasonable to expect modern DJs to
play tandas in the days of zero-wait, random access dual CD players,
mini-disks, and computer jukeboxes? No. Not any more reasonable
than it is for a man to wear a tie today --ties are vestigial scarfs
which were worn to keep your neck warm when central heating was a luxury
reserved for the same people who owned Faberg=E9 eggs. Today you
need one as much as you need another appendix. Yet, we do tandas
and wear ties for the same reasons, tradition and because, when done
right, it feels and looks good.
A well put together tanda has an internal and an external rhythm.
As a set, it has to have cohesion but it should not be boring.
As part of the evening's entertaintment, it has to help the flow of
energy emanating from the dancers without whipping them up into
a frenzie or plunging them into a morass. A good tanda is bloody
hard to create and requires a lot of music, a lot of knowledge
about the music, and a keen eye for what is going on on the dance
floor. Tandas are like Italian sports cars. When done well,
they are great; when done poorly they are ghastly ;-) Add to the
equation the fact that most tango DJs are the DJ by virtue of
having more CDs or recordings than their clients *not* because
they have a particular talent or affinity to the music, and you
have a recipe for disaster.
So, what's a good tanda --provided of course that you want to
run a traditional milonga. If you are not, then there is not
much point to it, is there? Just play whatever you want in
any order you want and may God have mercy on your milonga attendees ;-)
Here are *my* guidelines, i.e., this is my opinion and I'm entitled
to it. You, on the other hand, can and should do whatever you want.
As always, guidelines should be used as such not as straight jackets.
o A good tanda has cohesive elements
This has been taken as: same orchestra, same tempo, same year,
same fill-in-the-blank. This is wrong. While cohesiveness can
certainly be achieved by doing that, it has the side effect of
being boring. We humans like variety. Respect that by
varying some of the factors involved. For example, keep
cohesiveness by playing a D'Arienzo set from the 40s. Satisfy
variety by playing two fast ones and two mid-tempo ones.
=20
o A good tanda is aware of the previous tanda
The energy of the dancers is not limitless. If you just played a
set of fast milongas, don't follow up with a set of frenetic
D'Arienzo tangos. If you just played a Di Sarli set, pump up
the energy by tossing in a Biagi set. Also, don't play 1940's
D'Arienzo, followed by Biagi. You just created a jumbo tanda
of 8 songs or more with the same rhythm and performers. This is where
having read the liner notes or a tango orchestra history book
comes handy.
=20
o A good tanda does not necessarily mean same orchestra
Remember, a tanda is just a set. An artificial collection
put together by you. You decide what is a set. For example,
at my milongas I often play what I call an "experimental tango"
set. The only thing that these 4 tangos have in common is that
each song was recorded *after* 1990, by contemporary performers.
I may play one or two of Tangata Rea, Color Tango, Gidon Kremer,
or Tango 7, to name a few. I happen to know a DJ who would
play sets according to themes, e.g., numbers: Uno, followed by
Dos Canarios, Tres Amigos, Cuatro Compases, etc. The wind:
El Huracan, Ventarron, Gime El Viento, etc. Handicapped birds:
Gallo Ciego, Pajaro Ciego, etc. ;-) The possibilities are endless.
Granted, this is pushing the definition of a tanda but who do you
want to keep happy, your milonga attendees or some nameless/faceless
purist who doesn't even know how tandas evolved?
=20
o A good tanda is created
Don't assume that because a CD was recorded in a particular
order that that is how is supposed to be played. Worse yet,
do not push the random shuffle button on your CD player
and expect good results.
=20
o Good tandas are either all instrumentals or not
Don't mix instrumental arrangements with vocal arrangements.
Keep them separate. Also, pick one singer and stick with it.
Most tango orchestras of the golden age had one singer or a duo
who performed with them. Music was arranged with them in mind,
e.g., the tempo and range was adapted to the singers abilities.
When you mix singers the tempo can fluctuate dramatically
robbing the tanda from a significant cohesiveness factor.
=20
o Good tandas are not mini Best-Of samplers
Every tanda should have at least one stand-out great tango.
However, if every song in it is great, then the whole is diminished,
e.g., a Pugliese set consisting of Emancipaci=F3n, Chiqu=E9, Gallo
Ciego and La Yumba. Because each song is such a centerpiece, the set
as a whole feels too heavy.
=20
o Good tandas don't exhaust/bore the dancers
A good tanda pleases the dancers without making them so tired
that they collapse half-way thru it. On the other hand, playing
4 slow as molasses in winter valses should be a punishable
offence ;-) For example, don't play Filiberto's Tus Ojos Me
Embelesan followed by Canaro's Quisiera Amarte Menos followed
by Gobbi's version of L=E1grimas Y Sonrisas. People are going
to be moving so slow that they are liable to go back in reverse,
trip and fall and I hope they all land on the DJ's head... ;-)
=20
Well, I didn't mean for this message to get this long. I'm sure that
other people can come up with similar guidelines on how they
do their tandas. Lets hear'em. The bottom line is that tandas are
not the problem. It is bad DJs arranging lousy tandas that are.
May your local DJ arrange some good tandas with cortinas for y'all.
ruddy
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:27:23 -0500
From: Daniel Saindon <gardien @TANGO.MONTREAL.QC.CA>
Subject: TANGO TANGO, April 19 to 24
Good evening
The weather here in Montreal is actually very nice
for this time of the year and we hear people
say that we are now on the "good side" of winter which is another
way of saying that the worst of the winter season
is behind us and that tempeture will now improve
day by day as we move toward Spring.
Spring looks very promising indeed...
and I would like to invite you to five days of events and
workshops between April 19 and Easter Monday 24 April 2000
surrounding the presentation of TANGO TANGO
featuring Maria Cieri and Rodolfo Cieri ( who will
offer some courses in canyengue ), Claudia
Codega and Esteban Moreno ( both couples
are presenting workshops at the CITA of Bs AS
during the middle of March, along with
Veronica Alvarenga and Pablo Inza and musicians
from the Montreal Tango Ensemble with special
guests Nestor Vaz Chavez, bandoneonist and the
guitarist of his orchestra Julio Cobelli.
The event is organized by Paul Monpetit
email address: tangueri @generation.net
Enough said, you will find all the details on this web page:
http://www.tango.montreal.qc.ca/tangotango.htm
( There is a 23 % reduction for groups of 10 people. )
Daniel Saindon
gardien @tango.montreal.qc.ca
***********************************
http://www.tango.montreal.qc.ca/
is a web site of information on
Tango music & Artists and many
aspects of Tango Culture.
***********************************
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:56:34 +0000
From: Felix Delgado <felixmilonguero @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Women asking men to dance
In theory, I don't see why anyone should be concerned about women asking
men to dance. Why should men only have the right to choose who they want
to dance with? As a relative beginner in tango, I would be honored if a
woman who is a good dancer would ask me to dance (because I'm too afraid
to ask the really good ones). I assume she'd know what she's getting into
when she asks me to dance. But because few women actually ask men to
dance, I think some men see the ones doing the asking as being the
'desperate' kind. In other words, the women who get asked to dance are
usually either the better dancers or perhaps the more attractive women,
and the ones that don't get asked to dance are otherwise (as a
generalization, at least). If more women asked men to dance, perhaps this
misconception would vanish. With only men doing the asking, we have an
unfair position of power of choice over women.
Felix Delgado
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:24:29 -0700
From: Madhav Apte <mapte @CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Tanda Preferences
Thanks Ruddy for a great job on explaining the
origins of Tandas. I also enjoyed your explanations
of what can/should constitute a Tanda. Just the kind
of thing I was hoping for.
Madhav Apte
mapte @pobox.com
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 02:20:46 EST
From: Rosa Maria Perez <Rositango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Missing Apologies - "Rosi's Comments"
Dear List:
On February 1, 2000, I responded to the accusation of slander thru the proper
TANGO-L moderator. It was censored.
I have sent direct messages to those that demanded my apology. I have
nothing else to say. If you wish to be sent a copy of the censored posting,
contact me directly.
Sincerely,
Rosi
End of TANGO-L Digest - 2 Feb 2000 to 3 Feb 2000 (#2000-33)
***********************************************************