The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 1 Feb 2000
to 2 Feb 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 03:00:04 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 1 Feb 2000 to 2 Feb 2000 (#2000-32)
There are 8 messages totalling 275 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Women asking men to dance
2. National Geographic Tango Documentary
3. Women asking Men
4. Missing apologies
5. Women asking men to dance Cultural differences and Values (2)
6. Additional showings of National Geographic documentary
7. National Geographic special--original
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:28:41 +0100
From: Christel Knorrn <christel.knorrn @BERTELSMANN.DE>
Subject: Women asking men to dance
Dear List,
I agree that in Bs As a woman shouldn't ask men to dance because of tradition, codex and so on. It would be also impossible that women dance with women which is very common for the moment in Germany. I respect the traditions of a foreign country when I'm there ( if I don't like them I must not go there), but I think, I don't have to keep them all in my homecountry.
Here in Germany isn't unusual to ask a man for dancing or to dance with a woman.
Argentinian guests are a bit indignant about that, but accept our customs, also if a woman comes to a workshop and wants to learn the man's steps..
Everyone knows in his hometown which man might have problems with beeing asked for dancing and which one not. So I often ask somebody to dance with me and had never a problem with that.But it wouldn't be a good idea to come to a new town and place and try this.
A lot of men here are only to lazy to get up asking someone to dance,- they are sitting around drinking, talking and smoking...
In general I can't agree that a tradition is always good, only because it's a tradition.
Kind regards
Christel
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:23:58 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: National Geographic Tango Documentary
About the National Geographic Tango Documentary Mark Celaya wrote:
>I was somewhat disappointed that much was edited from the original
>version, so much so that the full impact was missing from what I had
>experienced before. ... Originally, the presentation had a more defined
message regarding the tango and its state 6 years ago, and projected that
definition in a more cohesive manner.
I was too was somewhat disappointed by the rebroadcast--but for some
additional reasons beyond the omitted material that Mark discussed. The
message of the original, full-length documentary was that the social form
of Argentine tango--which is an expression of Argentine tradition and
culture--is dying out and may be supplanted by the stage form, which can
please audiences everywhere.
Other than the symbolic inclusion of a small group of tango dancers in
New York City, National Geographic did not update the message. Neither
did it let the viewers know that the documentary was six years old and
that much has changed since it originally aired. The social form of tango
now seems far from extinction. Tango is likely to continue to evolve, but
not toward the stage form.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:33:35 -0600
From: Naomi Bennett <Naomiben @SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Women asking Men
I have been turned down by younger men (30ish) that I ask them to dance
(40ish). They usually politely say that they need a rest at the moment and
will catch me later. I never ask again that night or any other night if
they don't remember to ask later. The point is taken that the real answer
is no. I don't care what the reason is. I consider it their loss. There are
plenty of other men that do say yes, are in gratitude, like my company and
dancing. We can't appeal to all eyes and tastes. This goes for men too
regarding women.
If a man is that hung up about being asked, then he is probably not my type
of man anyway.
I believe that to get a no is only a step along the way to getting a yes.
One may never get enough dances or satisfaction waiting to be asked.
I try to figure out where the best place in the room is to stand or sit to
be noticed by leaders as they leave the dance floor. Where are the single
men standing? Go to the bathroom or get a drink to walk the room and
advertise that you are there. In Buenos Aires, you can see the men walking
and cruising the room all night trying to catch the eyes of women sitting
at the tables. They walk the room without reason between tandas to get the
next dance. I prefer to sit far away from the bathroom so I am forced to
walk across the entire room to get there.
If there is a bar, go sit there, most likely the single men will sit there.
Complement them for any reason, their dress, their dance, anything
different. Men do this all the time. Everyone likes attention and complements.
I never said that this action is always easy or comfortable. But the
alternative is to sit too much during the evening.
Naomi Bennett
Austin, TX
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:28:47 -0500
From: Enrico Massetti <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Missing apologies
Dear Rosi,
since it seems that you decided NOT to apologize to Jorge Nel for
your tasteless posting, please keep in mind that you have until
tomorrow, Wednesday, midnight US East Coast time, to do so before
I publish the private messages I received from ladies that danced with
you.
Be aware that some of them have not only graded your dancing,
but, and I guarantee you that you should be very worried here, also
your performances after the dancing was over.
You have been advised...... and you are still in time to apologize....
So long,
Enrico
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:03:04 EST
From: Arthur Greenberg <AHGberg @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Women asking men to dance Cultural differences and Values
Christel and Listeros:
Christel has a perfect perspective of what should be done and where. When in
an environment that requires you to abide by traditional procedures I think
it very appropriate to abide by those traditions whether you agree with or
not. If you violate the local cultural procedures you are making a social
error. If you object to certain procedures I would suggest that you not do
so loudly! Just abide by the local cultural values. If you are a visitor
you can put up with contrary values of contrary cultures. If you have moved
into that environment you must be careful to abide by local cultures. If you
are a guest in a foreign country where violation of those traditions would be
a serious insult to the local dancers and contrary to the values of the
local culture you are making a big mistake. One cannot inflict ones own
values on a larger group.
This is (and probably always will be) an area of volatility that causes
resentment and even degenerates to screaming and punching altercations.
Christel describes acceptable procedures for asking others to dance in her
homeland environment quite different, bred in a cultural environment quite
different than the cultural values in the Buenos Aires environment. It is
pleasing to hear that the Argentinians who visit her environment respect
those people outside the Argentine environment and although they may not
personally aprove or agree with them they realize that it is any culture's
right to have its own option to choose new ideas and procedures that are
appropiate to their new environment, in this case a German environment.
That is why it is so important to become aware of the cultural values of the
local area you are visiting to determine if there is anything different going
on from your own culture.
Almost anything can change when it comes to rules of social behavior between
men and women in the dance scene. If you are in disagreement with the local
culture that calls for contrary procedures that have contrary values to
your own,
it my suggestion to abide by those local cultural values and procedures or
get out of that environment. Change in these areas often come over periods
of lifetimes; not by revolution over night but usually by evolution over many
years. It is up to the insiders, the local residents/citizens to effect
these changes not visitors or guests.
It seems OK to bring a fork into an environment that uses "Chop-sticks" but
before using it ask if it is OK?
I truly cannot get accustomed to driving my car on the wrong side of the
road in England. I take taxis or let others who understand the driving
local laws. If you bring your Automobile to England do be careful to stay
to the left when driving on a road. Head on collisions are not forgiven nor
to be taken lightly. If you don't abide by some local laws you will not
survive to talk about it! I t is a matter of life and death.
When I visited a gay area in lower Manhattan in NYC a long time ago, my
friend wandered into a place where all the women were dancing and socializing
with other beautiful women. My friend still bears the multiple scars from a
lady who resented him being in her environment and gave him a few swipes with
a razor. He was shocked......but he learned something he has not forgotten.
What he perceived as a bonanza was a perilous disaster area for him. Do not
make any assumpltions! Do not mess with other peoples' values. Be
respectful! Take caution! Tread not where you might not be welcome! When
someone invites you into their culture, "do as the Romans do!"
Sincerely,
Arturo
P.S.
It seems not to be an new idea........."When in Rome do as the Romans do!"
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:25:09 -0500
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Additional showings of National Geographic documentary
Cammie, I remember it as a one hour National Geographic special. This
edited version was a big disappointment.
Melinda
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:57:02 EST
From: Lisa Morrison <LDMCoach @AOL.COM>
Subject: National Geographic special--original
Hi All,
I taped the National Geographic special on tango several years ago, but
missed the version shown recently. The version I have runs about 20-25
minutes without commercials. It was part of a one hour program which
included other subjects.
Lisa M.
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:12:50 EST
From: Frank Sasson <FRSASSON @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Women asking men to dance Cultural differences and Values
Christel Arthur and List Tangueros:
Having read and really thought about Arturo's assessment, concerning women
asking men to dance, I can agree with all of what he said but I feel that
there are a couple of things that have to be added, which are very important
for any visiting tanguera in a foreign environment.
1. Be patient, don't assume that because you know how to dance, and you are
a visitor, the tangueros will be forced to dance with you (if they are
gentlemen) when you ask them to. Specially if there are more women than men
at the milonga.
2. Ask someone to take you around and introduce you, saying your name and
where you come from. Most men won't remember your name, but they will
remember that you were introduced to them, and that will make it more
confortable for him to accept your asking him to dance.
3. Don't sit alone in a corner......Join a group, making sure it's a mixed
group. Don't sit where there are 4 or 5 women sitting together, specially
if they are local dancers, because the "shy" men will only ask the ladies
they know. If you sit in a group where there are both men and women, you
may never have to ask any man to dance, unless you want to.
4. There are usually areas where refreshments are served, and women who
mingle in those areas and start up conversations with men, usually open the
doors for men to ask them to dance, instead of asking the men openly and
directly.
I agree with Arturo, "when in Rome...do as the Romans do".... however, you,
as a woman and a dancer, have to help the Roman men to make up their minds to
dance with you, but don't hold them at spear point to force them to dance
with you.
As a tanguero, I never refuse to dance with a lady who asks me to, and I
hope that they will continue to ask me for a long long time.
Frank Sasson
Miami Florida
End of TANGO-L Digest - 1 Feb 2000 to 2 Feb 2000 (#2000-32)
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