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Digest from 31 Aug 2000
to 1 Sep 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 03:00:39 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 31 Aug 2000 to 1 Sep 2000 (#2000-236)
There are 9 messages totalling 445 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. boleos (3)
2. Couples as Tango Partners (3)
3. Bs As website from an expatriate (anglo saxon) perspective
4. about teachers, good and bad
5. (no subject)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 13:11:22 +0200
From: Tango El Corte <e.jeurissen @CHELLO.NL>
Subject: Re: boleos
A short reaction. First in general: words are sometimes very dangerous when
they are used by teachers.
Words can put you on the wrong foot and causing loss of balance.
> From different teachers I have experienced a couple of different
perspectives:
> 1. At CITA, in Mauricio's class on boleos he stressed three things. 1.
That
> boleos require momentum,
of course
2. that they are interrupted movements,
there are many ways... I would say distracted rather than interrupted. There
is no momentum after an interuption technically spoken.
but I think I know what he means. In the class with the NECESSARY other
communication messages it was probably making sense.
>& 3. that
> because of 1 & 2, the woman is not in her own balance
??????????????????????????
WHAT?
>and so the man should
> provide this.
I WANT TO DANCE AFTER A WORKING DAY, NOT CARRYING AROUND THINGS
Basically the man leads,
yes
>controls,
DANGEROUS WORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>and supports the woman,
DANGEROUS WORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> and her role is to be relaxed & responsive.
Of course!!
THAT is a nice conclusion.
> 2. Other teachers in Australia have told me that the woman does need to be
> in her own balance and insist that women do many unsupported exercises to
> perfect boleos.
> And that while the man leads/initiates the boleo, the women
> completes/perfects the movement.
I can understand them
>
> Also, when I was in Bs As, the tangueros there repeatedly told me NOT to
do
> anything,
Again words. I think they mean: do not answer before I finished my question.
> that I should let them do everything.
Again I think they mean that they just want to finish asking you a question,
but YOU
have to answer
>And so I did nothing & they
> did everything & it felt just fine to me, although I don't know what it
> looked like.
Again words and feelings. These reactions are put on my screen without me
thinking. As if
it didn't cost me any extra energy. But it was not YOU who controlled my
reactions.
This coming from my heart and fingers and mind.
>
> So what are your views?
I hope i gave you a few.
And I think that if it felt fine to you and to your dance partners, why
questioning?
Bye
Eric Jorissen
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 10:39:01 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Couples as Tango Partners
Diane wrote:
>I have recently heard a thread of "wisdom" (??) from a tango teacher in my
>area, who believes that romantic couples can very rarely be good dance
>partners. He states that the tango often tears couples apart, and that it
>is better to be dance partners with someone with whom you have no romantic
>interest. Of course, I have seen many tango couples/partners who disprove
>this theory, and I personally feel that this theory makes little--if
>any--sense. Does anyone else have ideas or experiences along this line?
My wife Susan and I were married before we took up Argentine tango, so I am
responding from my own experience, as well as from my observations of other
romantically involved couples who also dance tango.
Being married or otherwise romantically involved with one's tango dance partner
has both advantages and disadvantages. Some of the advantages include being
more easily able to arrange to practice together, using the dance for another
form of communication, and having a visible "chemistry" when dancing
exhibitions.
Among the disadvantages is tendency to take personally the frustrations that
seem to arise when dancing poorly with one's life partner. If dancing is seen
as an expression of the state of the relationship, and the frustrations of
dancing poorly together boil over, it is easy to see tango causing stress in the
relationship. These stresses can be compounded if the couple teaches tango or
is otherwise on exhibition for others to see their dancing. Working to
recognize and deal with these stresses is essential if the couple is to stay
together.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 11:02:24 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw @MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: boleos
Greetings friends and listeros,
Lately I've been reading the list but have been too distacted to
contribute much. However...
Concerning Sandy's question about Mauricio's description of boleos:
Mauricio's English is very good, so I am suspicious about the
description of the leader supplying "balance" to aid the follower.
Leaders simply reverse the follower's rotation in the vertical axis.
In her follower's technique workshop just last night, Florencia
Taccetti chose the words "rebound effect". That is, the follower's hip
rotation in the vertical axis is reversed (after the legs have crossed
with knees close), and the relaxed non-supporting leg continues it's
ORIGINAL momentum until it 'rebounds' on it's own. The rebound is an
anatomical necessity - it happens by relaxation more than by conscious
muscular intention. Only if one wishes the boleos to be high is it
necessary to add some "toe flick" to amplify the rebound. Thus, it is
fundamental that the followers must stay in their own axis.
By the way, I highly recommend Florencia's technique classes. Those
of you who have invited her to teach in your cities should find a way to
have her present techniqe per se - whether in workshops or in privates.
You won't be disappointed! She may be contacted at: ftaccetti @yahoo.com
Cheers from Minneapolis,
Frank Williams
--
_____________________________________________________________
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw @mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:59:35 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: boleos
Sandy Smith:
>
I am interested in your experience and views about boleos, in particular, the
actual role that the woman plays in their execution.
<
Since I have little experience, and as a result know nothing whatsoever about
boleos, I would like to talk about "physics" instead. I do not remember the
name of the substance invented by Jerry Lewis s original Nutty Professor. Its
physically correct version stores momentarily 100% of the energy derived from
a sudden stop (e.g., being dropped onto a flat hard floor) as potential
elastic energy, and returns 100% of it back as kinetic energy (now perhaps
going the other way). Let s call this substance X. A ball made of X dropped
to a pista will rebound back to the height it was dropped from. If used on
the soles of basketball players, it allows them to keep jumping without
effort, and also to keep jumping higher and higher by putting their legs to
work every time they hit the floor, thus adding additional kinetic energy.
(Here physics gets more complicated, so we will wave our hands a lot.) Now,
when a man boleos (but remember, I know nothing about boleos) he provides the
whole act (energy and shape of movement) because it is rude to ask a lady to
provide a lot of energy for him to store as elastic potencial energy to aid
the boleo movement. (Ladies are occasionally asked to turn men and even
"propping them up" a bit, but that is quite shameful, therefore artfully
disguised). This self sufficiency (nothing less would be acceptable to an
Argentinean macho man, whose ways have been duly and appropriately chastised
in this forum by non-Argentines so many times) is perhaps the reason, muses
someone who knows nothing about boleos, why man's boleos are such lame
affairs compared with a glorious woman's boleo. (This applies to both back
and front boleos, but far more dramatically to back boleos.) Now, when I look
at women's boleos from my position of utter ignorance, what I see as a
week-end physicist, is that the man, to one extent or the other, imparts an
energetic lead. This is unlike a regular lead, where the man applies very
subtle "control" pressures, which the woman keeps relieving by following the
man's intention, or one of the several possibilities consistent with the
intention communicated.) I do not see how a boleo could be LED without energy
being communicated to the woman by the man. However, since I know nothing
about this, it could be just me. Surely, a woman can boleo without this, on
her own initiative, just like a man does, and it happens all the time. That
is however, I dare say, a slightly different matter, if not without its
similarities. Now, what is the range of possibilities? From my "research"
source material, in this case my videos, I will select the extreme cases. The
minimum energy case is illustrated by Chicho. According to his school's
"theory", a led boleo should be the result of events at the level of the
relative rotational movements of the couple. If a woman is rotating, say,
clockwise on her own axis, and the man starts gravitating around her
counter-clockwise, and if in addition there is a properly toned frame
connecting the two, at some point something's gotta give, and of course it
will not be Mr. Macho Man. The woman's movement stops. If her body is
properly toned, and if the counteracting movement of the men's body is crisp
enough (but still relatively smooth in this school), there will be an amount
of elastic potential energy available. This "provokes" a rebote (rebound)
which initiates the boleo. It is then up to the woman to complete the affair,
by channeling that energy in a beautiful way, shaping the whole movement, and
putting up the balance of energy needed to complete the movement, and to go
on, possibly under a continuing lead. In my opinion this can result in very
beautiful joint movements; but to get a highly energetic boleo becomes
awkward. Some people who are trying to imitate Chicho's school (and that is
not a few!) sometimes end up with what feels to me like wimpy boleos. The
other extreme is illustrated by Ernesto Norberto Castello (Pupi). He does not
hesitate to "provoke" a very sharp stop. He does not even hesitate to
"provoke" both the original rotation and the sharp stop. He wants the toned
woman's body to be LOADED with elastic potential energy, to the point of
wanting to be hit on his thigh by her boleoing leg at the end of the main
boleo movement. And he does not hesitate to use his arms to accomplish it
all. So what is the woman's role? Just stand there? No, she needs do channel
that energy, and then some, into a beautiful (and highly energetic) boleo
movement. We see Luciana Valle doing this masterfully in the demonstration
dances. Is there a lot of difference between these extremes? Not THAT much.
The main difference, to my untrained eyes, lies in how sharp (energetic) the
"whip", or rebound, at the beginning of the boleo movement looks. A secondary
difference is that in Chicho one can see the boleo resulting from a
co-ordinated movement of the couple's entire bodies. I like both to the
exclusion of neither: one is more flowing and integrated, one could almost
say subdued, the other more staccato and dramatic. One is more "womanly", the
other more "manly", where these words are meant in a tango sense, rather than
real life one.
Cheers.
PS - Now, if a real physicist should read this, please remember that this is
not meant to be real physics. I am aware that what I call potential elastic
energy is not all, or even necesserily primarily, substance X type of
"stored" energy. But in terms of understanding the dance that is irrelevant.
It is enough that it FEELS like it to both participants.
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:36:31 -0400
From: Nitin Kibe <nkibe @WORLDBANK.ORG>
Subject: Bs As website from an expatriate (anglo saxon) perspective
Greetings, Listeros.
Some might find the following website interesting, for a different point of view
if nothing else.
http://www.expatvillage.com/home/
Good wishes to all.
Nitin Kibe
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 22:26:15 EDT
From: Leonardo Tanguero <TangoLeon @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Couples as Tango Partners
In a message dated 8/31/00 7:01:39 AM Diane Tober writes:
> I have recently heard a thread of "wisdom" (??) from a tango teacher in my
> area, who believes that romantic couples can very rarely be good dance
> partners. He states that the tango often tears couples apart, and that it
> is better to be dance partners with someone with whom you have no romantic
> interest. Of course, I have seen many tango couples/partners who disprove
> this theory, and I personally feel that this theory makes little--if
> any--sense. Does anyone else have ideas or experiences along this line?
My wife and I were ballroom dancers and just beginning to see each other
outside of the ballroom ('tango dates' - seeing the 'Tango Lesson' and
"Forever Tango") about 2.5 yrs ago when we decided to take Argentine tango
lessons together. In our committment to learn tango we got to know each other
much better and a romance developed. We got married about 1 year after our
first tango lesson. Instead of doing a 'first waltz' at the wedding, we did a
'first tango'.
The advantages of this relationship is enjoying together one of the most
enjoyable activities in our lives. We never lack a dance partner for a
milonga, practica, workshop, or lesson. Since we take all our lessons
together, we work on the same material. We believe our dancing has improved
more rapidly because of this.
The main disadvantage we've had was that in the beginning we danced almost
entirely with each other. This did not allow us to correct our mistakes.
However, eventually we recognized the value of dancing with others as well.
Another drawback we faced was that planning a wedding took time away from
tango. Be prepared for this possibility.
An important thing to keep in mind if you mix tango and romance is that you
can't let tango become more important than the relationship.
Leonardo
El Leon del Tango
TangoLeon @aol.com
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 22:42:44 -0700
From: Melville Fox <moby_fox @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Couples as Tango Partners
--- diane m tober <DTOBER @PRODIGY.NET> wrote:
> Dear list;
>
> I have recently heard a thread of "wisdom" (??) from
> a tango teacher in my
> area, who believes that romantic couples can very
> rarely be good dance
> partners. He states that the tango often tears
> couples apart, and that it
> is better to be dance partners with someone with
> whom you have no romantic
> interest. Of course, I have seen many tango
> couples/partners who disprove
> this theory, and I personally feel that this theory
> makes little--if
> any--sense. Does anyone else have ideas or
> experiences along this line?
>
> D.
Tango is capable of generating romantic passion. If
you deny that in tango, you're missing one of the most
powerful and beautiful features of the dance. Of
course, you might experience failed romance and all
its pitfalls, but in my opinion, this is a potential
cost of participation in tango that accompanies the
potential benefit of a most fulfilling romance.
My wife and I experience heightened romantic passion
in our tango. The passion we experience at the milonga
often follows us home after the milonga.
Mel Fox
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:06:55 -0700
From: Michael McDonald <mcdonald_86 @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: about teachers, good and bad
--- Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> I cannot speak for Mike (I hope he replies himself
> ;-)). Any way, in our conversation I understood that
in his experience he had not found this unethical
drawing out lessons to make more money) situation with
Argentine tango teachers.
Manuel is indeed correct. My main point was that I
had NOT come across any local or travelling tango
instructors whom I thought drew out leesons.
A secondary point was that instructors whose primary
source of income was dance intruction, particularly in
a local studio setting, would be most inclined to this
temptation.
Michael
>
__________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 22:36:22 EDT
From: Barbara DeLosier <DeLosier @AOL.COM>
Subject: (no subject)
We have been on the list for a month. We are willing to travel to major
cities for special tango events. It seems the event postings only provide
less than a month's notice. Please give us all more notice (up to six months
or more) . You who put on the events may have more people atten. It only
takes some much earlier postings.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 31 Aug 2000 to 1 Sep 2000 (#2000-236)
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