The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 29 Aug 2000
to 30 Aug 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 03:00:51 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 29 Aug 2000 to 30 Aug 2000 (#2000-234)
There are 6 messages totalling 294 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Looking for Daniela and Armando
2. about teachers, good and bad (2)
3. a pedagogical approach to tango (2)
4. Tango Pedagogy
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 07:18:55 -0400
From: Lorettal Burton <LnBrtn @COMPSERV.NET>
Subject: Looking for Daniela and Armando
Hi,
I am looking for Daniela and Armando, if anyone has the
number where they are visiting, I would appreciate any help.
Tangoly,
Lori
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 23:57:13 +0900
From: astrid <astrid @RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: about teachers, good and bad
> I received this email which I found interesting and educating in light of
> the recent thread about teachers, authenticity, etc. I'll copy it in it's
> entirety below:
>
> "Manuel,
>
> Read your message on "the list". I do have to say
> that I have run across teachers (ballroom) who hold
> back in their pace of teaching (in private lessons) in
> order to generate more revenue for themselves. This
> happens most often when a student is not interested in
> doing 'competitive' dancing which does take extensive
> time and practice. Also, these teachers tend to
> either "burn out" and quit teaching and/or have
> trouble getting and keeping students. I have never
> run across this problem in Argentine tango with any
> teacher, local or 'travelling masters'.
>
My first Argentine teacher in Tokyo told me that he had been instructed by
his boss, maestro Kobayashi, that it should take three years for a student
to learn the tango properly. He thought this was ridiculous and had to do
with the Japanese value system (everything can be achieved if you just work
hard enough, and the harder and more arduous, the better a person you will
be for it), and, last but not least, K.'s appetite for lesson fees.
"I can make a woman dance in four lessons but he won't let me" he said.
Now, was Mike's point that tango teachers don't draw out their lessons or
that they don't suffer from burn out ?
And what do you think, how long does it usually take to become a dancer?
(Sorry, this is a late answer, I just got back from Berlin)
Astrid
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 11:48:47 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: about teachers, good and bad
I cannot speak for Mike (I hope he replies himself ;-)). Any way, in our
conversation I understood that in his experience he had not found this
unethical (drawing out lessons to make more money) situation with Argentine
tango teachers.
To the second question, IMHO, it can take many years to become a *good*
dancer, but not necessarily. For instance, Chicho who is well know as
teacher and dancer (I think he is a very talented dancer), reputedly learned
to dance tango extremely well in a matter of a year or so. On the other
hand, there are some folks who take lessons for many years and never get
past the *passable* stage.
For us, the goal is to have our students dancing and enjoying themselves as
quickly as possible. Also, it is my great delight to see my students dance
better than me! It would be short sighted and foolish to impede their
learning. Our students come to class because they enjoy being there. They
like the teaching and learning, the interaction with other students, etc.
While we obviously want people to come and stay as students, we do not
resort to any such unethical and self-defeating stratagems to keep students
taking classes. We love to have people come because they want to and because
they enjoy it. We teach them as much as we can and as well as we can.
Cheers, Manuel
Original Message -----
From: "astrid" <astrid @ruby.plala.or.jp>
> Now, was Mike's point that tango teachers don't draw out their lessons or
> that they don't suffer from burn out ?
> And what do you think, how long does it usually take to become a dancer?
> (Sorry, this is a late answer, I just got back from Berlin)
> Astrid
>
>
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 15:29:51 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: a pedagogical approach to tango
Sandy wrote:
>The world is full of people from a range of disciplines & professions who
>claim that whatever they do is so abstract & arcane that it cannot possibly
>be taught & I have argued about this with architects, artists, therapists
>etc.
>My belief is that there are always things to do with TECHNIQUE (whether
>that involves how to hold a paintbrush, establish rapport in a
>therapeutic setting, or how to hold one's body) which are critical to
>the successful performance of a task. And this probably isn't any
>different with partner dancing.
A few of the elements of tango that require a bit of magic are developing
a soul-to-soul connection with a partner and improvising from the heart.
To some extent these are abstract and archane objectives, and beyond
teaching. The techniques for developing a connection and for imprpovising
are also explainable, analyzable, and doable. Many individuals may
develop an implicit understanding through their continued exposure to
tango, but these magic elements can also be learned and nurtured through
good instruction.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 20:16:58 EDT
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Tango Pedagogy
Greetings,
As a student and teacher of tango, I find the current thread about the
quality of tango instruction of interest.
Perhaps people would be better dancers if they realized that learning a motor
skill or hearing the rhythm in music has very little to do with intellectual
capacity or knowledge. A truckdriver can become just as accomplished as a
college professor. All the intellectual musings about the state of pedagogy
or the ability or lack thereof to connect with your partner doesn't mean too
much if you can't do your steps.
The issue of unscrupulous teachers, like many other things, is not a black or
white issue. There are deadbeats out there but just as many serious teachers.
And the fact remains that tango does indeed take several years to learn. The
disservice is not informing students of this at the beginning so they know
what they can expect. It should also be remembered that private lessons can
be an expensive waste of time and not just because of the teacher but because
of the misconception that privates are better. It is a serious error to take
privates if one is a beginner. I always advise beginners to take them when
they are more advanced so they have a knowledge of the material and can
understand the necessary subtleties to refine and improve their dancing. Even
then it is time wasted if one does not practice and can not do them with
other partners. I know people here who have studied over a year privately but
don't seem to improve except with their teacher. It's a little like the
classic example of couples who take a class together and never change
partners. They end up both dancing terribly and can only follow each other
because they have become so accustomed to the other's mistakes that they can
compensate.
There will always be a talented few that will pick up the dance sooner than
others but the exception does not disprove the rule.
And one factor seems to be left out of the equation. Some people just don't
how to learn, especially if they can't learn to divorce their intellects from
their bodies. There is no substitute for thousands of ochos and molinetes or
whatever. That is the simple reason why students who practice the most
usually become the best dancers. They have walked more miles in their tango
shoes than others. Talking the talk is OK but in tango you have to know how
to walk the walk (literally) and words don't mean very much then.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 18:59:55 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
Subject: Re: a pedagogical approach to tango
>Ever since I blurted out (22A00, "Re: teacher bashing") an hyperbole
>comparing the teaching of mathematics and that of partner dances, a number of
>people have put good flesh on that bleached skeleton.
...
>So now pedagogics. I look at didactics of partnership dance teaching on its
>own terms. At different points over the last couple of years, I have made two
>lists, long and far from exhaustive, of things that were obviously wrong with
>schools and dance classes I attended, not excluding tango classes, seminars
>and privates, and not including issues of actual content. (Yes, tango is
>comparatively better taught, perhaps because it is harder to get ready for
>the social dance floor in tango than in other dances, so there is a pressure
>of necessity.) I am not posting those lists, inspired by two professions that
>have a cultural propensity for withholding information (law and the teaching
>of social dance). Just one indirect challenge, and let me say right away that
>most of the items on my lists are far more obvious than this one.
Thanks to Carlos for bringing this up.
A pedagogy is not the same as a syllabus. Good teachers (of anything)
have studied HOW to teach, and part of this is to consider learning
styles, as well as many (all?) the different skills necessary to be a
good tango dancer.
Here is a list of learning styles, my wife gave me from her teaching classes:
- Visual
- Auditory
- Kinesthetic
- Spatial
- Intra-Personal
- Inter-Personal
- Musical
- Linguistic
- Logic
- Emotional
- Flexibiltiy
- Intuitive
A good tango dancer has "authenticity" (in whatever style is his/her
chosen style), as well as "quality". So a good teacher should have a
good pedagogy for helping many different learning styles accomplish
the skills generally accepted as essential to meet both the
authenticity and quality standards they are trying to promote.
I won't pretend to come up with a list of the many
authenticity/quality skills necessary for being a good tango dancer,
but would indicate a few that I consider essential:
- Musicality
- Rhythm
- Passion, feeling & Energy
- Connection
- Balance
- Caring for your partner
- Leading & Following
- Managing crossed & parallel systems
(oops, here we start getting into practical skills)
I purposely left off the 8CB (w/DBS) as I don't consider that an
essential element of learning tango, even though that is one of the
preferred mechanisms of introducing tango to beginners (Steve's
Survey of Tango Videos indicated its near-universality). One reason
(among many) I don't consider it important is that it doesn't help at
all with the things I place first on my skill list: Musicality,
Rhythm, Passion/Feeling/Energ.
Looking up above at the list of learning styles, I would say that the
8CB w/DBS focuses primarily on the Logical Spatial & Visual learning
styles, but doesn't do much for some of the other styles.
The way I view this, is: "Ya gets what ya deserves."
If you teach logically you'll attract and succeed with logical
people. If you value other things (musicality, Passion for example),
then you need to construct a pedagogy that succeeds for those
learning styles.
The best discoveries I have had have been watching teachers' beginner classes.
One of the benefits of being an organizer is the ability to watch how
many different teachers construct their classes. Some have
well-thought out systems and others just show steps. While it is
possible for some people to learn from someone who "just" shows
steps, I value the teachers who are hitting on more cylinders than
that.
I have seen a very few teachers with even moderately developed
pedagogies in the manner to which Carlos and I are discussing.
I would like to highlight two of the best TEACHERS of tango I have
ever seen: In a class all their own, and far above all the others,
are Brigitta Winkler and Eric Jorrisen. It perhaps no coincidence
that they have studied HOW to teach, and have 15 years of experience.
This is not to slight anyone's favorite teachers.
While one can learn something from almost any tango teacher, if we
are paying $15 or $20 for an hour and a half workshop, we deserve
more than somebody just showing steps, no matter how high the quality
of those steps is.
Tom Stermitz
stermitz @ragtime.org
http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime
http://www.tango.org/dance
End of TANGO-L Digest - 29 Aug 2000 to 30 Aug 2000 (#2000-234)
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