The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 25 Aug 2000
to 26 Aug 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 03:00:36 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 25 Aug 2000 to 26 Aug 2000 (#2000-231)
There are 7 messages totalling 333 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Bashing versus useful critique (2)
2. USA Today Newspaper says,Robert Duvall to start work on Tango movie in
January
3. teacher bashing
4. Tango festivals 2001
5. Will the Real milonguero please stand up
6. Perception is simple.
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 11:27:32 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Bashing versus useful critique
Roger Ray wrote:
> I disagree with the idea that one should say nothing if one can't say
> something nice.
There is still some reason for a reader like myself expecting
restraint on the part of the critics who have a lot of negative
things to say about anyone, visible or invisible(and I have no
complaints about any praise people might have for others.)
For, in general, I would agree with Yeats when he says(approx.):
"The worst are full of passionate intensity
And the best lack all conviction."
rajan.
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 07:49:33 -0400
From: James Murphy <cmurf @WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: USA Today Newspaper says,Robert Duvall to start work on Tango movie in
January
Today's edition of the newspaper USA Today (Friday August 25, 2000) has an
article titled,"Duvall's tango passion leads to fancy footwork." (page 1E)
It reports that Robert Duvall will begin preproduction of his movie
"Assassination Tango" in January. He'll shoot in New York City and Buenos
Aires, Argentina.
According to the article Francis Ford Coppola is providing a financial
assist to the project.
The paper version of the article has a photo of Duvall dancing with Nestor
Ray. The photo appears to be only in the paper version. (but maybe someone
else can find it on the web site)
The URL for the online version of the article is:
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20000825/2584791s.htm
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:07:22 -0700
From: Randy Garrou <randygarrou @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: teacher bashing
Carlos Lima opined that "if mathematics were taught as unpedagogically as
partner dances typically are, science as we know it would come to a dead
halt."
Manuel Patino then responded, stating his opinon that "Mathematics is not
dancing, particularly not social dancing. I'm eternally grateful for that.
There are no hard and fast rules for dancing as in mathematics," concluding
that "a pedagogical approach to (social) partner dancing is about as
practical as a pedagogical approach as teaching kissing or lovemaking. I
think rather that if social partner [dancing] was taught as pedagogically
as math, there would be even fewer social dancers than exist today."
While, in some senses (e.g., those he mentioned), I of course agree with
Manuel's comment. However, I am not sure it addresses the issue fully. I
agree with Carlos that there is much that could be learned if certain
basics were routinely and pedagogically, if you will, reemphasized in the
context of each class session.
One such basic is the proper weight distribution of both dancers, which is
crucial to lead-follow techniques when learning ANY new steps.
A related basic is insuring that both dancers employ a proper frame, again
crucial to both the communication and reception of an intended lead. This
means more than just some static initial position of the dancers' body parts.
Finally, another basic that should be pedagogically drilled into students
in EVERY class is the need to perform their moves only in the line of dance.
Indeed, I have no doubt that others on the list will offer additional
suggestions of indispensible basics that should be routinely addressed in
the context of most, if not all, class sessions.
While such repeated instruction may seem redundant or overly "pedagogical"
to some, it cannot be ignored if, as is almost inevitably the case, less
experienced students are participating in classes with so-called
"intermediate" dancers. Also, I would submit that the majority of
intermediate dancers need to constantly remind themselves of these basics
when learning new steps in order not to develop unintended bad habits.
I think a pedagagical approach which insists on some degree of coverage of
these fundamentals in each class would go a long way towards improving both
the skill levels and enjoyment levels of all tango communities.
Finally, given the widespread (and very welcome) phenomenon of visiting
teachers who speak in languages other than those of most of their students,
another pedagogical requirement should be, if at all possible, the active
involvement of a competent translator who fully communicates ALL the
comments of the instructor. It is often a waste of very precious tango
bucks to have unquestionably valuable pearls of tango wisdom from a
visiting instructor (many of which are communicated in subtle offhand
comments) go unnoticed simply because there is no routine pedagogical
requirement for competent and constant translation.
Obviously, if a competent translator cannot be found, there is still much
that can be learned from a visiting instructor with whom most of his or
her students do not share a common language. This cannot be questioned
whatsoever. However, it is equally indisputable that the skill level (if
not the enjoyment level) of students would increase dramatically if the
"pedagogical protocol" of requiring competent and constant translations
(into the native tongue of the majority of the students) were adhered to in
each such class session.
In short, IMHO, there's a lot that can be learned from some basic
pedagogical approaches, even in an area such as Argentine Tango, where the
essence of the activity is to communicate or express one's feelings for the
music and sensitivities to one's partner. Pedagogical techniques will
enhance, not retard, this process.
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 17:24:08 +0100
From: Lothar Staudacher <tarlo @BERLIN.SNAFU.DE>
Subject: Tango festivals 2001
Any Tango - Festivals in 2001 ?
Dear Tangofriends! Berlin - Germany, August 2000
In the "Tango Calender 2001" - edited by the =93Boletin del Tango" in
cooperation with Dobri Gjurkov (grafics) we want to publish dates of
upcoming tango festivals in 2001. They should include some workshops with a
seleccion of guest teachers, showdance and /or lifemusic, duration more
than two or three days.
If you like to inform us please tell us the city, the dates (start/end) a
contact phone/fax/e-mail or webadress.
Deadline is September-25th-2000.
Thank You in advance for Your kind cooperation
Lothar Staudacher
p.s. For more infos about the "Boletin del Tango - die Zeitschrift f=FCr
Tangot=E4nzer" and "Tangokalender 2001" have a look at our homepage!
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Boletin del Tango
Lothar Staudacher
Wulffstr.11/EG rechts
D-12165 BERLIN
Tel&Fax: ++49 - (0)30-797 17 59
Info and orders:
E-Mail: tarlo @snafu.de
Homepage: http://home.snafu.de/tarlo
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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:29:53 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Bashing versus useful critique
Natarajan Balasundara:
>
For, in general, I would agree with Yeats when he says(approx.):
"The worst are full of passionate intensity
And the best lack all conviction."
<
Yes, restraint in criticism is a virtue, especially in personal criticism,
except, I suppose, of despots. Once one has ensured freedom, and the courage
to use it as need be, one can indulge in the finer virtue of restraint.
Freedom is rather more often under siege than restraint, I dare say. But I
guess there should never be a reason not to use restraint while discussing
tango. I will remind myself of that.
I think there is much more in the quoted Beaumarchais than in the quoted
Yeats. Yeats was surely not making an aphorism in that quote, as quoted, but
commenting on some case. Because saints did live, and so did things far more
flawed than saints, but perhaps better, such as a Thomas Jefferson --- to
mention a North American (you know, it is unavoidable). Again, no reason to
fear the bad in tango, because they are much more interested in power and
wealth. All we have to worry about here is the pettifoggers.
Cheers.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 16:28:49 -0400
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Will the Real milonguero please stand up
Very funny, Stella.
But it does remind me of something I'd really like to know, because I
plan to go to Argentina the last two weeks in November (barring work
& family emergencies).
What are the accepted dress codes at the milongas, & how can you tell
what they are before you go?
I'm sure they're different at different places. At places with mostly
young people I'd guess they're fairly informal. And I seem to recall
an outdoor one attended by a mostly older crowd that ran to short-
sleeved shirts for men, no tie, no coat. But I suspect that a lot of
(or most?) milongas expect more formality.
Janis? Sergio? Anyone?
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 20:37:45 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm @PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Perception is simple.
Carlos Lima says:
"Carlos Copello is an amazingly unassuming and charming man.... he deals
with everyone as if with a friendly neighbour."
I stand corrected. I was under the misguided impression that when a teacher
grabs you by the lapels, pulls you up within an inch of his face, and
verbally threatens you in the middle of trying to learn a step, that
that meant he didn't LIKE you. And that when he walked over to
the next female in the class, and with his hand took the hair on the
back of her head and yanked on it to force her face up, that
that meant he didn't LIKE her. Now I see this is GOOD! He
actually LIKES me! OK, now I understand. Thank you. That must
be why he launched into his "North American women are equal" speech
at the end of the class with Alicia looking on (as you say) not very
communicative.
Carlos Lima says:
"I would encourage her to look for a great working partner, because
when one is ripe for it, nothing will do more for one's dancing (and dancing
enjoyment) than a good (and not possessive) partner; and she deserves that."
Carlos, you have no idea what I deserve.
Carlos Lima says:
"For one thing she tends to accept people as they are, it seems"...
And just how are they, really, Carlos?
Carlos Lima says:
"This just makes me surer that, if we ever met and
danced, I would be doing the man's part, and she the woman's. Think of this
what you may. It may not be what you think."
Carlos, I don't think we'll ever dance.
Carlos Lima says:
"This perception difference with Deborah (possibly reflecting an actual
difference) made me think of other experiences... Being my usual
obsessive-compulsive type, I translated every word, and even threw in a
couple of fillers when I saw participants hesitating, ...he kept reminding
everyone to collect their ankles as part of every stride. He did so in
particular for a woman whom I consider a lovely dancer, but has this
"vicio" of striding with her knees and ankles somewhat disconnected.
I kept translating every reminder... The lovely dancer, however, was
literally infuriated by the experience... (She had not really been put in
an embarrassing situation, and I am sure nobody else thought so.)"
I'm sure nobody else thought so.
Carlos Lima says:
"Still another case: Carlos Gavito. He tells women that they need to know
things, too, and in no uncertain terms. Ladies grumble... and his seminars
are sometimes not so well attended."
Can't imagine why.
Carlos Lima says:
"It would be great if tango students oversensitive to "criticism",
men OR women, realized that they are shooting themselves on their proverbial
dancing foot when they prefer pap to real teaching; being ego pampered to
being helped; being told how great they are to being told what they need to
do to reach for greatness; when they are less interested in actually
improving than in imagining themselves tango minute made wonders."
Well let's just toughen up those silly girls. We don't want them in tango,
anyway. Apathetic students (with low self-esteem) that can be pushed
around by the tough teacher are much easier to deal with.
Deborah Holm
San Francisco
End of TANGO-L Digest - 25 Aug 2000 to 26 Aug 2000 (#2000-231)
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